Mignonette

Yeah, thanks, Arinna, for the "we're spanish, we embrace" gif!

You're welcome, Alex Yes, if my brother was as hot as Ces, I'd do him, why not? And it's legal here in France I'm pro-consanguinamory

Idk maybe Ces & Lu did in Ferrara, but not on those 2 occasions when Lu was sick in her pregnancy or having just given birth. Ces was kinda busy in the Romagna, but they might've figured out a way to be together

BL.Arinna_1982

Yeah like... "Where's the scandal?"

PhoenixRising

OMG, it's legal in France? Damn.

Yeah, I doubt Ces and Lu would do anything while she was ill. But I really like to think that they made time on other occasions. Yeah, I'm sure he was busy, but he was never too busy for fun stuff with other women, so why not with her?

Mignonette

Yes, sex between ALL consenting adults is legal in France. Incest is illegal only if one person is a child. Even in your country, Alex, incest is legal in Rhode Island and New Jersey. There used to be laws against gay people and interracial couples having sex. Why should adult family members be jailed for what they do in their bedrooms? If you don't like incest, then don't do it! But being turned off by it is not a reason to make it illegal or dictate what others can do.

You're right, Alex, he always found time for women, which was easy since he was a rock star and had groupies everywhere he went. Did you know women followed his encampments around Italy? His **** had a following

Lu being his sister and all the way in Ferrara made things more complicated, but I think he did find ways to continue to be with her until he was imprisoned in Spain.

PhoenixRising

Oh, I see, so it's legal if the siblings are consenting adults? Yeah, I think I heard about Rhode Island. I think the thing with incest is the fear of birth defects due to inbreeding, but that's another issue altogether.

So Cesare had groupies? Nice. I'm sure that Lucrezia knew that she was always first and foremost with him. I would hope that he found some way of being with her when he had time.

Mignonette

Inbreeding is mostly a myth. The rate of birth defects occurring in the offspring of first degree relatives is less than 2% higher than non-relatives. The rate does increase substantially through generations of incest. For ex: If siblings have 2 babies and those children grow up and have babies together, those children have a much greater chance of defects because those genes have a higher chance of being expressed. The British monarchy had this problem with hemophilia among male children.

Genetic counseling is always advised when relatives want to have children together. Where incest is illegal, people won't get testing because of fear of prosecution Another reason incest between consenting adults should be legal.

Yeah, Ces had groupies even after he contracted syphilis at age 23. He was just so damn hot, that women were willing to risk syphilis, including the infamous Fiametta

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Oh, really? That's actually true, Lila? Wow.

I really wouldn't even like the idea of having sex myself if I had syphilis, Lila. I don't know how Cesare managed it. And who is Fiametta?

Mignonette

It's true, yes

My doctoral research project is on incest, Alex. Do you remember my early posts? It's been a while back and ok if you don't I've written here about my niece and her younger brother. They are the reason I initially became interested in doing this research. They've been in love since they were young teens. They live together as spouses here in France, and have 2 little babies. Both children are perfectly normal and healthy. Our family loves them and supports their relationship. They've been inseparable as long as I can remember, so we just see them as a couple with children and their sibling relationship is secondary.

Fiametta was the beautiful and famous Roman courtesan who made it known to the world that she was a mistress of Il Valentino.

BL.Arinna_1982

Hmm, guys? Let's get back to CL?

PhoenixRising

Well, we are discussing incest, so it's kind of on topic, Arinna. But okay, we'll get back to Ces and Lu.

Oh, now I remember, Lila. Thanks for reminding me. And thanks for letting me know about Fiametta. Damn, that just proves there was more story to be told, and The Borgias didn't have to end in season 3. They would've had plenty more for a fourth season that could've given us more Cesare and Lucrezia.

Mignonette

We were. I was saying that one reason I believed the first baby Lu had after marrying her third husband was actually Ces' is that the rate of still births is higher with incest babies.

What do you think, Arinna? Do you believe they were incestous and conceived any children?

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Didn't you say that the rate of infant mortality is also higher with incest babies?

Mignonette

Just still births (late term fetal death). Lucrezia, as far as we know, had only one actual still birth - the baby girl in 1502, which I believe may have been Ces'. The other children she lost were born alive, but died within hours. A live birth, even if the baby lives only a few seconds, isn't a still birth. If her brother was the father of her one known still birth, it reflects statistics.

Incest is much more common than people realize and sibling incest is the most common. I guarantee you, Alex, that you know someone who's secretly involved with a relative sexually. It's seen consistently across every mammalian species.

It's so bizarre to me that some people refuse to believe that Ces & Lu were lovers despite all the supporting evidence. If they were able to step away from their judgments and view things objectively, they'd see that their incestous relationship was inevitable based on their behavior with each other as young teens.

BL.Arinna_1982

Hmm, this is really debatable..