Mignonette

That's a good point, Alex, about Vannozza speaking with them about it She didn't voice her concerns about Juan until after he died when Rodrigo asked if she wished he'd never been born. Maybe that's what she did with Ces & Lu? Wouldn't you love to know if she knew something IRL?

I'm certain that Rodrigo knew, because he always tried to cover up their misdeeds. He was highly intelligent and since he spoke of the intense bond and love they'd shared since childhood, he had to have known something.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, like that scene were Vanozza had that talk with Cesare in season 3 when he was busy planning his strategy against Caterina Sforza. Was that scene after he came home from France or before he went to France? Oh yeah, I'd love to know what Vanozza knew.

Rodrigo knew in real life or on the show? Because on the show he seemed totally oblivious to what was going on between Ces and Lu. Yeah, he knew about their bond, but you'd think he'd have said something if he actually suspected. The only member of the family on the show who suspected anything was Juan.

Mignonette

That scene with Vannozza was in The Prince and was the night before he attacked Forli. He told Vannozza that he had many fears, mostly about Lu and that the guards he'd placed were for Alf, not her. He was keeping Alf a prisoner. But he also was keeping track of where they both were so that he could visit Lu alone at her palace

Rodrigo IRL. Sorry for not clarifying. You're correct, Alex, on the show Rodrigo was totally oblivious. He was too preoccupied with his own **** to notice where Ces was putting his

Juan voiced his suspicions aloud, but Vannozza also had suspicions. Her face said it all as she watched them dancing together, staring into each other's eyes like lovers, at Lu's betrothal.

That's why I've said Ces killed Juan primarily to protect his incestuous (but not yet consummated) relationship with Lu. Just look how much they acted like lovers before Juan's body was even in the ground! Rodrigo was literally burying Juan outside while Ces & Lu danced in celebration. And they were NOT celebrating her betrothal. They were celebrating being together without Juan's suspicious eyes upon them and worrying about what he might do.

I mean, jeez, Lu asked Ces to marry her right after he'd killed Juan. He was fantasizing, but he said YES. He ached to be her husband in every way: that's why he danced with her like HE was her fiancé at THEIR betrothal. He was living out his fantasy, if only for a moment. And he did it right in front of everyone, including Alf. He was challenging and subtly threatening him. He WANTED Alf to wonder, to feel inadequate. Remember the "I only feel safe..." scene when Lu told Ces that Alf was frightened of him? He'd picked up on Ces' intentions, even though he hadn't yet made sense of them.

PhoenixRising

Oh, now I remember. Thanks, Lila. Yeah, do you think that Vannozza had already figured it out even then, considering how Cesare was so worried about Lucrezia? Do you think Vannozza figured out why Cesare gave Lu that palace?

Oh, I see. Yeah, In real life Rodrigo probably did know. Rodrigo on the show was... like you said, too into his own junk. Yep, I've mentioned the look on Vannozza's face before when she was watching Ces and Lu dancing. Yes, I do remember Lu's comment about how she only felt save when Ces was around. Ironic, since Alf was always afraid of him.

BL.Arinna_1982

He even spend her first wedding night with her.

PhoenixRising

Yes he did, Arinna.

Mignonette

I’m really happy that the show emphasized Ces’ desire to marry Lu and father her children. From the research into the real life Cesar, it’s clear that his love for Lucrezia was much more than sexual. IRL and on the show, he acted like a husband to her and a father to her children, especially Giovanni, who I absolutely believe was her child and likely his. He definitely wanted her sexually But it was much more than that

BL.Arinna_1982

It was not like that at the beginning of the show.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, if you can call it that. It was never specified if he was serious or kidding. But I think he was serious, even if he wasn't admitting it to himself yet.

I agree, there was definitely more going on there in real life.

Mignonette

Oh but it was: he told Lu she’d never marry if he could help it, that they could live like Abelard and Héloïse, she told him she’d never love a husband as she loved him, he promised to cut the heart out of her husband if he hurt her, he carried her over the threshold to the bridal bed on her wedding night, he acted like a father to her baby.. these are just for starters As François said, "It was all over the writing!”

Oh yeah, Alex, I definitely call it that. He wasn't content just being her lover on the side. I agree that he was not fully cognizant of the scope of his feelings in the beginning, but he had to know it was more than sibling love.

Killing Juan was a pivotal moment, cause it freed them to finally explore their feelings. But Ces, especially, was afraid. He sensed the enormity of his feelings and their destructive power. He'd killed two men for her, including his own brother, so he had every reason to fear giving into those feelings. Every time he'd done so, he'd lost control and endangered them both.

The show began and ended with them referencing marriage. In their first scene he's lying on top of her when she asks, "Can I come to your wedding?" He says, "You know I'll never have a wedding." She responds, "No, you're married to God. Don't you love God, Cesar?" He looks into her eyes and says, "More than I love you?" In the final scene, he claims her as Mine on the bed next to her dead HUSBAND - that they've just murdered.

Lu understood what he truly wanted when she told him, “YOU will be my husband tonight”. She didn’t say "lover" When she said she wanted another child, but her husband could only when he was drunk, Ces told Alf to "Rest your blade until I return". He was planning to give her what she wanted.

Then there's the fireworks scene where he asked, "Did you marry the wrong man?" She told him, “If I married a thousand times, it would always be the wrong man”, as they locked eyes. There's no doubt he wanted to marry her and after they consummated their relationship, she felt the same way.

BL.Arinna_1982

That scene was in the last episode, right?

Mignonette

Which scene, Arinna? I referred to several...

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Yeah, I remember Ces telling Lu that. But that was way before their incest, so I still wonder how serious he was about that. I'm sure he didn't want her to marry, but I'm still unsure of when he began to really desire her. Yeah, the Alebard and Heloise stories were a good allegory for those two. But perhaps you're right in that some part of him knew that this went beyond sibling love. And yeah, Francois kept repeating that phrase in interviews over and over again. "That's what you wrote!"

I think that killing Juan was a precursor to killing Alfonso, to be honest. One obstacle was removed an another took his place. Oooh, nice catch there, noticing how the show began and ended with Cesare and Lucrezia lying together.

Well, all that other stuff was pretty obvious, Lila. Lu was always making references to her always being with the wrong man.

Mignonette

Yes! Alex, I agree that killing Juan was a precursor to killing Alf

In scene one, Ces was 18 and sexually experienced, but he repressed his desire for Lu from his awareness. That kept him from acting on it That is until it exploded out of him when Juan threatened his relationship with her.

Because of François' acting skills, you can watch Ces become more and more conscious of his feelings starting immediately after killing Juan. Killing his brother brought him face to face with his demons: he wasn’t suited for the clergy and he wanted his sister. Not just bang her POSSESS her.

It wasn’t about the sex for him. Lu was the one always trying to jump him, but she didn't have a driving need to possess him. On the show and IRL, he was the fatal attraction bunny boiler, not her When you see people doing weird stuff like carrying their sister off to bed on her wedding night, it's usually unconscious repressed desires playing out.

As for Lu, she'd never let herself fantasize about a life with Ces, cause she was resigned to being marriage chattel. He was the one who plotted and strategized without informing her. boiler

His angst was about not having her. What was his last word: MINE. Having sex with her actually made him miserable afterwards, cause she wasn’t his. What did he do after he watched her have sex with Alf? He died inside and told her, "Nope, can't do this babe! I'm off to France - daddy ordered it, getting a wife and forgetting about us. Bye!" But when Lu told him, "when you're away, I forget you"? He looked crushed.

He was able to push her out of his bed even when he had a massive cause it was never about the sex for him.

Omg when François sighed and “adjusted” himself after Lu walked out of his bedroom in the Everything scene He's an amazing actor to think of every detail

BL.Arinna_1982