Mignonette

Cesar studied law at the university in Pisa, so he knew how to draw up a legal document for Giovanni. And I just realized that his extensive knowledge of the law would've helped him hide evidence of incest. Plus he had a cunning and very sharp mind. Not to mention jealous, possessive, extremely protective of Lu, AND ruthless!

Yes, you have a most interesting mind, Alex, and I'm glad you do. I love how you think and where your mind goes! I'll bet Cesar thought like that, too, and yeah - he used his "gun" on Lucrezia, putting it in her holster where it went off again and again...

PhoenixRising

Thanks for that info, Lila. Yeah, that's one thing that really doesn't get enough attention in the show, that Cesare and Rodrigo were skilled lawyers. And you're right, both Ces and Rodrigo would've known how dangerous it would be if incest were revealed to have happened .

Thanks for saying that, Lila. Yeah, I'm just trying to project myself onto Cesare and imagine what he'd be thinking.

Mignonette

You're right, Alex, the show didn't mention Rodrigo or Cesar being lawyers. They definitely knew how to circumvent the law and how to cover their tracks. I feel that Rodrigo knew about Ces & Lu, and might've encouraged it, hoping to secure Lu's loyalty to him. She certainly was loyal to Ces, unnaturally so, and people noticed. I mean, she knew Ces had Alfonso killed - and she loved Alfonso - but even that didn't change their intense bond. She loved him above everything.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Lila!

Yep, I do think that's one aspect of their characters that could've been at least mentioned more. I think they did show Rodrigo doing some legal researching and litigation, but not much from Cesare.

Well, like you said, Mari Puzo definitely thought that Rodrigo encouraged it.

The thing with Alfonso was complicated. She did love Alfonso, but she also loved Cesare, and she had to know that Alfonso was the one who also made an attempt on Cesare's life before Alfonso died.

kindness is free

Her love for Cesare was epic and forever

PhoenixRising

I'm glad you're a fan, Emma!

kindness is free

I didn't get to see all the seasons but what I did see I loved these two

PhoenixRising

Did you get to see the final season, where they finally made incestuous love?

Mignonette

Hi Emma! I'm happy you're a fan of Ces & Lu You must watch season 3 - like Alex said, that's where the action is!

Rodrigo knew they loved each other more than siblings. He knew Ces bought Lu the house that attached to his, because he wanted her in Rome with him. She was living in Pesaro, but spent time in Rome without Sforza. It wasn't enough for Ces. When she married Alfonso, she left him in Naples, living away from him part of the time in her house next to Ces'. You can't blame Alfonso for being so jealous of her brother.

Yeah, I agree that Lu knew Alfonso tried to kill Ces with a crossbow. Even though she loved Alfonso, from the way she acted after Ces had him killed, I think the show captured her feelings pretty well that yes, she did feel love him, but was IN LOVE with Ces. Being in love is much more powerful and is the kind of love that makes people do crazy things like, you know, murder people and have secret babies

sourburst

Glad there's more new fans!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Jade! Welcome back! Yep, we got some new fans.


Hi, Lila!

Are you talking about Rodrigo in real life? I don't think that Rodrigo knew about Ces and Lu on the show. Oh, I see. I guess Rodrigo would know why Cesare bought that house. Well, of course Alfonso was jealous of Cesare. Even Cesare's own brothers were jealous of him.

That's a good analysis, Lila. I just wish that the show had shown that Alfonso had arranged for Cesare's assassination and that it failed.

Oh, very crazy things, Lila.

kindness is free

I didn't watch S3 but clearly I missed out

PhoenixRising

Oh, you need to watch season 3 then, Emma. That's when the sexy stuff happens.

Mignonette

Warning long post ahead, which is rare these days since I'm so busy, but I had a revelation and needed to share it!
Thanks for agreeing with my analysis, Alex

Yes, I was talking about IRL. I know Rodrigo didn't know about Ces & Lu on the show, although you and I believe Vanozza at least suspected them.

Historians that dismiss the incest just don't give enough thought to the siblings' behavior, especially Ces'. What man buys his married sister a house (more of a palace, really) that attaches to his in Rome when she already has an estate and a castle with her husband in Pesaro? She had been coming back to Rome and spending long visits without her husband, staying in the apartments within the Vatican. Then after a couple years, Ces bought her that house, so that they had privacy away from the Vatican. Like Alfonso said in the show, "This Vatican is a hive of rumours and innuendos", and also on the show, Ces bought Lu - not her & Alf - that palace where they could be away "from prying eyes". Parallels IRL.

Sforza threw a fit about his wife staying in Rome at that house (and being so close to Ces, I'd imagine) and demanded that she go back to Pesaro. She refused, so he moved into the house with her in Rome, and was miserable. He hated Rome and loved Pesaro. Within 6 months, he fled in disguise alone in the middle of the night in fear that Cesar had plans to kill him. (We've discussed this before, I know ). It's just so important in the timeline of Lu going to the convent and baby Giovanni's appearance at the Vatican. And even after Lu married Alfonso, she lived with him in that same house next to Ces. When Alf had to go live in Naples, she didn't stay with him for long there. Interestingly, she finally did move away from Ces when she went to Ferrara, but Ces was rarely in Rome by then - he was always on his military campaigns.

OMG Alex!! I just thought of something that's never occurred to me, which is amazing since I'm obsessed with C&L Ces KNEW the baby was his! And he must've told Rodrigo. Ces loved Lu so passionately and was unbelievably jealous and possessive with her - he was never that way with any of his mistresses or Charlotte - just Lu. So they'd be no ******* way he'd allow ANY other man to claim his child, much less raise him. It makes so much sense now why Rodrigo and Ces forced Sforza into the annulment. They had to get him to confess himself as impotent in case Sforza found out Lu had borne a child at the convent 6 months after separating from him. Cesar would've burned in hell before he let Sforza take baby Giovanni. Ces was in a double-bind: he couldn't risk losing his child to Sforza, but couldn't claim him if it became known that Lu was his mother, because it would prove the incest! Sforza suspected something, because he tried to force Lu against her will back to Pesaro. Rodrigo took her to the convent and kept her under guard in case Sforza tried to take her.

So Ces & Rodrigo came up with the convent and annulment ideas. Sforza did NOT have to claim impotence for an annulment to be granted. The church aka Rodrigo could've just taken Lu's word that the marriage was not consummated. But they needed Sforza's confession of impotency in case he ever suspected the baby might be his by Lu. This way, Ces could claim the baby (by a conveniently unnamed mistress) after the annulment and Sforza could never challenge for paternity - cause he's incapable of fathering a child! Two birds killed with one stone: a new marriage alliance for Lu and certainty that Ces wouldn't lose baby Giovanni. Rodrigo issued the papal bull saying the baby's father was Cesar. Open and shut. Like we've discussed, the second papal bull saying Rodrigo was the father, was never filed and was found locked in Rodrigo's personal desk in his apartment after he died.

As for that unnamed mistress Ces claimed was baby Giovanni's mother, she never appeared - ever. His other bastard children, Giralamo and Camille, had mothers who were married and known. Yeah, Giovanni's mama could've been married and didn't want a scandal, but wouldn't she at least be curious about her child? It's just too convenient and there's too many coincidences for me.

It all makes sense. If baby Giovanni was Ces' first child, a son, and by his beloved Lu, he'd have stopped at nothing (including murdering Perotto and Lu's maid) to keep him and Rodrigo would back Ces up, which means that Rodrigo knew.

PhoenixRising

You're welcome, Lila!

OMG! Okay, give me time to read all of that. I'm on my vacation, so I'm gonna have some other stuff I'm doing.