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Old 07-01-2018, 01:14 PM
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Yes, Cesare did claim him as his own.
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Old 07-01-2018, 04:40 PM
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Hi, Lila!

Cesare acted like Giovanni's father when he saw Juan pulling a Michael Jackson with him on the balcony. That really set him off. I think that's when he knew he was gonna kill him. You don't mess with Lucrezia's baby when Cesare is around. And oh yeah, Cesare was the first to hold him, wasn't he? Remember when Ces and Lu were both looking down at baby Giovanni like happy parents?

Oh, I forgot that Cesare was carrying Giovanni to Alf and Lu's bedroom. I think that was another source of contention with them. Alfonso was never really close with Lucrezia's son and didn't really bond with him at all. I think Alfonso saw the connection between Cesare and Giovanni and that bothered him as well.

I actually forgot how many children Lucrezia had. She had more with her third husband, right? And I expect that Cesare had visited them often. And that's a good point that Cesare did make Giovanni heir to his estate even though he did have other children.

See, that's another thing I didn't like about The Borgias Apocalypse. I can't see Lucrezia trying to poison Cesare after how much he had done to protect her son and how close he had become to him, even making him his heir. It just seemed like NJ put that in there just out of spite for all the fans who loved Ces and Lu together.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:44 PM
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Hi, Lila!

Cesare acted like Giovanni's father when he saw Juan pulling a Michael Jackson with him on the balcony. That really set him off. I think that's when he knew he was gonna kill him. You don't mess with Lucrezia's baby when Cesare is around. And oh yeah, Cesare was the first to hold him, wasn't he? Remember when Ces and Lu were both looking down at baby Giovanni like happy parents?

Oh, I forgot that Cesare was carrying Giovanni to Alf and Lu's bedroom. I think that was another source of contention with them. Alfonso was never really close with Lucrezia's son and didn't really bond with him at all. I think Alfonso saw the connection between Cesare and Giovanni and that bothered him as well.

I actually forgot how many children Lucrezia had. She had more with her third husband, right? And I expect that Cesare had visited them often. And that's a good point that Cesare did make Giovanni heir to his estate even though he did have other children.

See, that's another thing I didn't like about The Borgias Apocalypse. I can't see Lucrezia trying to poison Cesare after how much he had done to protect her son and how close he had become to him, even making him his heir. It just seemed like NJ put that in there just out of spite for all the fans who loved Ces and Lu together.
Hi Alex! I think TBA was nonsense published just to shut up fans. Lucrezia would never have harmed a hair on her brother's head She did everything to protect him and had she been a man, she would've died in battle at his side

Alex, that's a great point about Alf not bonding with Giovanni! He held him often before their wedding, but not after. He saw CL gazing at each other dancing at the betrothal, so he wondered about them & maybe the baby. He was jealous of Ces for everything: Lu's affection, his bond with Giovanni, his height , and his lack of nasty body hair

He knew they were lovers when Ces ran to Lu as she cried out his name OMG the way she leaped into his arms & he kissed her so passionately over & over When Colonna said "not everyone can love like that...like brother and sister", did you see Alf gulp?

Then OMG that same night, they were a couple with Ces carrying the baby in with Lu to ALF & LU'S BEDROOM, as if it was THEIR bedroom & Giovanni was their baby he was putting in the cradle.

Alf saw their passionate kissing and now he watched them share another intimate moment & him making her giggle. This REALLY pissed him off. Lu was never passionate with him & seeing her brother kissing her & MAKING HER HAPPY was the TRIGGER for Alf's rage.

When he said "he made you smile", she said "no, you did, you're the joy of my life". He said "you know that I know that's not true", and the look she gave removed any remaining doubt about her brother. He became a drunk and stupidity kept provoking Ces, because he'd made him a CUCKOLD & his marriage a sham

I loved when Ces told him "Don't provoke me" when they were sparring and "I warn you" when Alf accused him of murdering Juan. Alf knew Ces was a dangerous killer, but he was crazed with rage When he told Lu "he's killed me, just as the two of you wanted", he was right

She KNEW Ces would kill him, and did nothing to stop it. She asked about Alf riding back to Naples and Ces said he'd never allow it. She knew his french alliance meant Alf's death. She knew what Ces would do when she told him she was tired of Alf. When she told him she wanted another child and made it clear that it was HIS child she wanted, not Alf's, she knew she'd just signed his death warrant. So why did she act so shocked when Rodrigo confirmed Alf would die?

She obviously had some cognitive dissonance Just as IRL when Ces had Alfonso killed. She cried publicly, but spent the evening alone with Ces 2 days later

In the final episode, did you notice she was LAUGHING with her head bowed when Ces put Alf in a chokehold and told him to "rest his blade"?

Yeah, she wanted him dead so she could be with Ces. Her only conflict was her guilt, because she knew Alf had truly loved her, was a good person, and she & Ces had destroyed him. BUT she'd do it all over again to have Ces, and so would he to have her

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Old 07-02-2018, 01:43 PM
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:26 PM
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Hi, Lila! You may be right, we may never know what the storyline for season 4 would be. I do not buy that NJ didn't have enough material, and that entire script was so out of character and ridiculous I think NJ just put it together out of spite. And that part where it turned out that Rodrigo ended up in hell? Yeah, that's historically accurate, huh? NJ has an issue with incest, but this he's okay with? But that stuff with Ces and Lu was the worst. It contradicts everything that we know about them from the first three seasons.

Yeah, I did notice that Alf didn't really spend that much time with Lucrezia's son. I think he still may have been a bit uneasy around him, given that he was born out of wedlock. And he was definitely jealous of Ces being closer to Lu and her baby than he was. Yeah, and Ces was also a better physical specimen. But I think it was obvious to anyone that when Lu cried out Ces' name when their carriage drove past them that they were unnaturally close as siblings. Yeah, I saw Alf gulp and his manhood craw up into his body.


Lemme get back to the rest of your post soon.


I love that scene, Arinna!
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:07 PM
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Yeah, I saw Alf gulp and his manhood craw up into his body.
Alf had manhood lurking somewhere? Cesare essentially turned him into a eunuch.


Great gif, Arinna! I love that scene too, Alex! Where's the scandal, Ces? Right here -> you & Lu -> then

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Old 07-03-2018, 01:54 PM
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I wonder if they are still doing it after that scene.
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:55 PM
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In my mind they are, Arinna.

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Alf had manhood lurking somewhere? Cesare essentially turned him into a eunuch.


Great gif, Arinna! I love that scene too, Alex! Where's the scandal, Ces? Right here -> you & Lu -> then
He did, didn't he? So much so that Alf had to prove his manhood by challenging Cesare to fencing practice, remember? And Ces whupped his ass.

Oh, yeah... Ces still trying to be either coy or naïve or both. It seemed that Lucrezia was more aware of their relationship than he was at that point. He's like, "what's the problem? Nothing to see here," but Lucrezia was all, "we can all we want, brother, but we have to be discreet."


Sorry for the brief post, Lila. It's storming outside and I don't wanna be online too long with all that lightning and thunder.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:17 PM
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I wonder if they are still doing it after that scene.
Yes, they were! Why does it look like she's dragging him off to bed in that scene? Because she WAS! He was letting her have her way with him, because he FOLLOWED her.

He knew he was turning her on when he grabbed her, pulled her pelvis to his, and teasingly asked "where's the scandal?" She teased back with "you KNOW where the scandal is" and stared at his lips. She knew he was aroused, so she seized the moment.

So yes, I'm certain she took him to her bed right there. He felt guilt AGAIN, but he was in love and there's only so much temptation a man can take!

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Oh, yeah... Ces still trying to be either coy or naïve or both. It seemed that Lucrezia was more aware of their relationship than he was at that point. He's like, "what's the problem? Nothing to see here," but Lucrezia was all, "we can all we want, brother, but we have to be discreet."
Alex, Ces WAS being coy & knew exactly what he was doing! He was arousing her, PROVOKING her into moving on him Their passionate carriage scene was the night before, so he was desperate for her

Lu's the one who said Alf could cause public scandal if he intimated impropriety between them. Ces was minimizing her concern, trying to convince HER not to worry about it. He grabbed her around the hips and pulled her pelvis into his, staring into her eyes, flirting when he said "where's the scandal?". He was provoking a sexual response from her.

Do you know what empowered him to do that? He'd just told her he'd never let Alf leave, so she knew he was a goner. And she didn't care! Her only concern was Alf becoming a pain in the ass if he caught them together. In the past, she'd professed her love of Alf, etc., but now, she was being honest and that emboldened him.

Ces played games to obscure his role in things, but it was HIM who'd engineered the whole thing:

Remember him saying she needed a place "away from prying eyes"? He told Orsini to tell him where Lu & Alf were "at every hour of every day". Why? Because he wanted to be ALONE with her, so he needed to know when she was home and Alf wasn't. Was he planning to just have coffee with her and chat about the weather?

He was a master strategist & it was ALWAYS him orchestrating the moves. He knew his body was Lu's weakness, so he used her lust to provoke her. Who do you think he wore those tight leather pants for?

Just because he pulled away from her kiss in "The Prince" and she confronted him, doesn't mean they had sex only once. When she told him she wanted another baby, his not Alf's, he would've have given her that baby right then. He knew she was in despair that he might die in battle. He fully intended to give her his baby, because he told Alf "until I return, rest your blade". Did you see how angry he was when Alf came in and interrupted them?

There was too much ambiguity for me to accept things at face value. Like how it seemed Lu was going to Ces because Alf wouldn't touch her. But she used that to hide her true motives, which were to force Ces into revealing his lust for her and stop his game playing.

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Old 07-04-2018, 01:26 PM
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:48 PM
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Thanks for that gif, Arinna! Lu looks like she's having an orgasm just looking at Ces.


Hi, Lila! It's the 4th of July here in the USA!

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Alex, Ces WAS being coy & knew exactly what he was doing! He was arousing her, PROVOKING her into moving on him Their passionate carriage scene was the night before, so he was desperate for her

Lu's the one who said Alf could cause public scandal if he intimated impropriety between them. Ces was minimizing her concern, trying to convince HER not to worry about it. He grabbed her around the hips and pulled her pelvis into his, staring into her eyes, flirting when he said "where's the scandal?". He was provoking a sexual response from her.

Do you know what empowered him to do that? He'd just told her he'd never let Alf leave, so she knew he was a goner. And she didn't care! Her only concern was Alf becoming a pain in the ass if he caught them together. In the past, she'd professed her love of Alf, etc., but now, she was being honest and that emboldened him.

Oh yeah, I know that Cesare was doing that, but I don't know if he expected the response he would get. And was their carriage scene the night before? I can't remember when that scene took place, before or after Lucrezia returned to Rome. I remember that Cesare visited her in Naples during his campaign, shortly before she escaped. They were walking in front of fireworks, I recall. She's the one who told him, "you know where the scandal is." By then they were no longer talking like brother and sister, but like spouses.


Yeah, I know that Lucrezia figured out that Alf was dead, but I wish they hadn't been so inconsistent with Lu's feelings for Ces and Alf. She told Cesare that she was tired of Alf, yet later she's afraid for his life. She was all over the place in that scene.

Sorry for the brief post, Lila. It's the 4th of July and I'm celebrating, so I'll reply to the rest of your post soon.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:29 AM
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Lu looks like she's having an orgasm just looking at Ces.

And was their carriage scene the night before? I can't remember when that scene took place, before or after Lucrezia returned to Rome. I remember that Cesare visited her in Naples during his campaign, shortly before she escaped. They were walking in front of fireworks, I recall. She's the one who told him, "you know where the scandal is." By then they were no longer talking like brother and sister, but like spouses.


Yeah, I know that Lucrezia figured out that Alf was dead, but I wish they hadn't been so inconsistent with Lu's feelings for Ces and Alf. She told Cesare that she was tired of Alf, yet later she's afraid for his life. She was all over the place in that scene.

Sorry for the brief post, Lila. It's the 4th of July and I'm celebrating, so I'll reply to the rest of your post soon.
OMG Alex, it's not only Lu - most women could have an orgasm just looking at Cesare

Speaking of fireworks, hope you had fun celebrating the 4th of July yesterday!

The carriage scene was from Naples to Rome and was the night before the scandal scene. They'd just escaped with their lives and Ces was ecstatic Lu was safe. They spent the night at the Vatican and Ces brought Lu to the palace the next day telling her she needed a place of her own to avoid prying eyes. If you have any doubt they were going off to bed, look where they walk - the stairs going up to the bedrooms & watch her face and then his after she says "you know where the scandal is" and leads him away

The fireworks scene was after he came back from France, before the Milan campaign. They didn't know yet that Lu had chosen the wrong brother as king. Ces REALLY needed to see Lu after being away from her so long, cause Naples is a 2 day ride south of Rome, where he'd just been with Rodrigo & Milan is another 500 kilometers north of Rome!

There were 2 reasons Lu seemed inconsistent in her behavior with Ces and Alf:

The first is because of Ces. She had no idea he was going to claim her after Alf's death. She didn't know until he said it remember? He kept her in the dark !! He kept secrets (he already knew he was going to France to find a bride when she freaking had sex with him!), lied to her (Djem), broke his word (of course I'm by your side, France can crumble to dust), and had done terrible things (murdering innocent servant girls). He played games and by the time he left for France, he'd made her very insecure. It's why she played the jealousy game with him. Like when she baited him into admitting his lust for her in 3x02, she wanted him to declare his feelings and claim her. He knew he'd hurt her and broken her trust by not keeping his word (he really wanted to, but couldn't ), so he tried to avoid disappointing her by not saying anything. Of course she wasn't a mind reader, so he hurt her even more by staying silent!

The second reason is because as a woman, men controlled her life - her father, brother, and other men. Guila explained women hated each other, because men controlled so much of a woman's destiny. Vanozza said their family was ruled by love, but Lu said no, it was ambition - her brother's and father's and now hers if she didn't want to live "in a garden of weeds". She knew if she was to have any control over her life, she must think and plan ahead. Her fantasy was Alf dead so she could be with Ces, but her reality was fear - she was frightened by uncertainty. What if Ces remained aloof? What if she was forced to marry a terrible man? What if?!!!!!

This is why she panicked when she saw Alf dying. Her future and her son's was now uncertain and perilous with another husband, or maybe another garden of weeds. Knowing she & Ces had killed him brought out her guilt also. She'd lost faith in everyone except herself, as she'd told her mother.

When Ces said "Mine" and claimed her as his WOMAN, not just his sister or just his lover, she let out a huge sigh of relief and happiness, raising her face to him. He was all she'd wanted and her future with him was no longer uncertain.

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Old 07-05-2018, 02:12 PM
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I don't think Lucrezia had nothing against it.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:00 PM
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I don't either, Arinna.

Well, I can't speak on this subject, being a guy, but I can imagine that most women would, Lila. And thanks! I had an okay 4th of July.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, Lila. I haven't seen that episode in a while so I forgot the timeline. Oh, I think Lu having a place of her own would've been nice, kind of like what Rodrigo gave to Giulia. Ces could have a secret access tunnel put in and everything. I can only wish they did end up going to bed, but Alf was there being annoying.

Okay, so the fireworks scene wasn't where Lu talked about scandal. But that was still a loooooong ride for Cesare. He must've really missed her.

Those are both really good points you made about Lucrezia, Lila. You really think that Lu had no idea what Cesare would do after Alfonso was out of the way? I would've thought that Lu knew him better than that. Yes, Cesare was ruthless when it came to defending the family and defeating their enemies, but he was always consistent with her. The only time he wasn't was when she began to return his advances and he was caught off guard and seemed uncertain. But that was probably more due to the incest than anything else. She's the one who kept bringing up scandal, you know? But yeah, he probably should've communicated to her better.

That second point seems valid as well, but I still wish that Lu would've been more trusting of Cesare that he wouldn't make those same mistakes that their father made. Ces would never have had her marry someone like Sforza again, and he probably would've made sure that their relationship was much closer while his wife was still back in France. It would've been a perfect situation for them.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:47 PM
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Arinna, I agree Lu had nothing against it. She'd have done anything to have Ces

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I think Lu having a place of her own would've been nice, kind of like what Rodrigo gave to Giulia. Ces could have a secret access tunnel put in and everything.
Brilliant point, Alex! Ces got the palace for Lu exactly like Rodrigo did for Guila! . And with Charlotte off clueless in France, he could live secretly with Lu & their babies. He wasn't wasting any more time, because the day after she returned to Rome, he moved her in, telling her "YOU need premises of YOUR own to avoid prying eyes". Obvious what he had in mind for her & for Alf

IRL Ces' apartments were adjoined to the palace he got for Lu in Rome near the end of her marriage to Sforza. (NJ loved using bits of actual events on the show). A few months after they moved in, Sforza fled in the middle of the night back to Pesaro in fear for his life from Cesare. Shortly after, Lu went to the convent & baby Giovanni showed up soon afterward. Hmmm..

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I can only wish they did end up going to bed, but Alf was there being annoying.
My think they did, Alex, after the "where's the scandal?" scene. It was the day after they'd escaped Naples and Alf was still at the Vatican. He didn't know about the palace when Ces took Lu there The previous night was where Ces ran to Lu and kissed her passionately. He was so relieved she was safe, he didn't care that his men & her husband were watching them. He took her to the palace the next day. She knew his intention when he said "to avoid prying eyes" & it's why she said Alf could cause scandal if he saw anything. They'd left the courtyard & were at the bottom of the stairs when they had this conversation.

Ces told Orsini: "I would know where she is, where her husband is, at every hour of every day", so he knew when Alf wasn't home.

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You really think that Lu had no idea what Cesare would do after Alfonso was out of the way? I would've thought that Lu knew him better than that. Yes, Cesare was ruthless when it came to defending the family and defeating their enemies, but he was always consistent with her. The only time he wasn't was when she began to return his advances and he was caught off guard and seemed uncertain. But that was probably more due to the incest than anything else. She's the one who kept bringing up scandal, you know? But yeah, he probably should've communicated to her better.
Lu hoped he'd claim her, but I don't think she knew for sure until he said "Mine". I think if she'd known, she would've been so angsty at Alf's killing. Yeah, she knew Ces, but they had sex, he became hard to read. Remember when she got upset with him at the fireworks scene saying she didn't like surprises? Ces kept lots of things from her to protect her, but also because he wanted her to see him as her hero. He saw things through a man's eyes: protect and provide for the woman he loved. Lu saw things through a woman's eyes: needing him by her side and to be the only thing that mattered to him. Mars and Venus. He needed time to learn to relate to her as a lover and she needed time to.relate to his need to take care of her.

Did Lu mention scandal more than the one time? I don't recall. She knew why Ces got the palace for her & was concerned Alf would come home unexpectedly. She wasn't aware Ces always knew where Alf was, because he had Orsini reporting to him hourly.

He was consistent in his love for her, but his actions were contradictory sometimes. He made love to her, but when she cried "where is your love for me?" & "I love you", he wouldn't say it back That really hurts a woman, because we need words! She'd fallen deeply in love with him and he broke her heart again when it told her their affair was in the past and he went off to France and got married - all after promising to make her happy and be by her side. . The morning after sex, he literally ran from her & she was SHATTERED. He was conflicted, so he sent mixed messages, like kissing her in the armory & nearly having sex in her room, but saying no when she went later to his bed. He started the incest with the armory kiss, but then he struggled with it. She never had that struggle - she just wanted him! In the "everything" scene, he kissed her neck & sucked her finger, but then refused her. And he got her the palace, but refused to kiss her in The Prince, wtf Ces?

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