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Old 10-26-2018, 01:09 PM
  #286
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Thanks, Lila. I'm feeling a bit better today, thanks.

Oh, I think that Cesare was indulging in all of those things because he hated being made a Cardinal. It just wasn't his calling, and he resented his father giving him the papal robes and Juan command of the army for no reason other than because Juan was the favored son and not because he was qualified for the job. Cesare was far stronger and more intelligent, but Rodrigo felt his talents would serve him better in the Vatican, not realizing that Cesare would make such an effective military leader. So yeah, I think his resentment of never feeling in control of his life may have pushed him to the dark side, believing that he had to take what he wanted instead of waiting for someone to give it to him.

Well, I didn't mean "romantic" in that way, Lila. I was trying to be delicate and not say "sexual" or "carnal" or something like that when describing Cesare and Caterina. They did have great chemistry, though, but it was more like two rivals who just happened to have sex, not romance. And I agree, Charlotte was a sex-buddy. He liked her strength and her spirit, and she was obviously good at sex, so that was a plus. But his love was reserved for Lucrezia.

Yep, Ces did need to be Lu's hero. But what type of hero was he? A knight in shining armor, or a demon wanting to possess her? Oh, I see what you mean about him carrying her to her bed. Yeah, I can see that. I also think he was quite conflicted, wanting to be her protector as well as the only one in her life. It's a fine line, I guess, and perhaps he didn't admit to himself what his true intentions were. And you're right, a lot of men ended up dead because of Cesare's desire to protect and possess her. And I think the bed scene at the end bookended their relationship from where it started back when he carried her to her bed after her wedding to Sforza.

Oh, I see. So the darkness was already in them, it just needed something to bring it out, huh? You still think they didn't have some light in them early on in season 1?
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Old 10-26-2018, 02:15 PM
  #287
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I actually think that they were in fact very close, because by that time, you couldn't trust to anyone. And it was really rare to be that close with someone from your family. How close now... who knows?
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:27 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)
I actually think that they were in fact very close, because by that time, you couldn't trust to anyone. And it was really rare to be that close with someone from your family. How close now... who knows?
Hi Arinna! Yes, they could trust only each other. Treachery was everywhere, even with their own brother! Ces was so sad when he had to lie to her about Djem's death. He accepted there were things he couldn't tell her, but lying to her really hurt him. Like Alex said, she was the one pure thing in his world

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Well, I didn't mean "romantic" in that way, Lila. I was trying to be delicate and not say "sexual" or "carnal" or something like that when describing Cesare and Caterina. And I agree, Charlotte was a sex-buddy. He liked her strength and her spirit, and she was obviously good at sex, so that was a plus.
Hi Alex! I'm glad you're feeling better!

Oh ok, you were using "romantic" as a euphemism for the dreaded thing we're not supposed to talk about in a forum about sibling incest

And Charlotte the virgin was good at sex? Awww, I think you have a crush on her, Alex. You've mentioned 3-somes, so would probably want her, Lu, Guila, & Caterina (did I leave out anyone? Vanozza? Ursula? Micheletto's mama? ) to all get together and I'm sorry, (not sorry ) I just had to go there. You're so easy to pick on, Alex, being the only guy here

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And I think the bed scene at the end bookended their relationship from where it started back when he carried her to her bed after her wedding to Sforza.
Exactly! Yes!! That's why I keep fighting for everyone to see what Ces carrying her to bed on her wedding night was all about! An 18 year old guy doesn't carry his sister to the marital bed like a bride! AND he did it in front of her new husband - in front of everyone! It was an insult designed to humiliate and send a message to Sforza = SHE'S MINE & I'm ********** dangerous when it comes to her!

That was the message in Ces' menacing look to Sforza when he poured him some wine. He wanted Sforza to have a little flash of fear that there might be poison in that glass. He knew he couldn't directly threaten him, but he needed him to know he was a man he shouldn't cross, so he'd better treat his sister well! Ces was still a kid, only 18, but he was a man in love who'd just had to face HIS woman being married off to another man & fearing she'd be maltreated! Can you imagine how that felt?

Sforza talked about that humiliation when he ripped off her gown and raped her. It's why he was so vicious to her. He didn't hate the Borgias until Ces humiliated him by bringing his "whore mother" to the wedding party, then carrying his bride off to bed like HE was the bridegroom, and to top it off - coming back downstairs much later and telling him to leave his own wife alone! Ces started the whole bloody conflict with the Sforzas that night & planted the incest seed in Sfora's mind.

HUSBAND was a repeating theme. In season 2, he joyfully lived the marriage fantasy with her. In season 3, she spent her wedding night in his bed and told him he'd be her husband that night. He spent both of her wedding nights in bed with her! The first wedding night scene showed us only a few minutes of him longing for her as she slept. But he spent a LONG time with her, cause when he returned downstairs, the party was ending.

Ces wanted to be her husband in every way, including taking her virginity on her wedding night, but in the end, he couldn't do it, cause she was still innocent and he was uncertain how she'd feel. He had an obsessive, murderously jealous need to own her = Mine! He got rid of both her husbands. Husband #2 lying dead beside them as he made love to her showed that he'd finally achieved his lifelong goal: HE was Lu's husband. Like you said, Alex, that scene bookended her first wedding night when he carried her to the marital bed. THIS was his conflict the entire time: be her husband vs her hero. Possess her sexually vs be her knight in armour. Evil vs good. The devil vs God. When Lu said god sat in the room with them, Ces said God or the devil, cause that was his conflict. Lu had ZERO conflict She just wanted HIM and he was the ONLY thing she wanted

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Oh, I see. So the darkness was already in them, it just needed something to bring it out, huh? You still think they didn't have some light in them early on in season 1?
Yes, you could see the darkness was already there in scene 1 and the things they experienced allowed that darkness to grow & be brought into their awareness. And yes, they absolutely had light, both of them did. They were mostly light in the beginning. Especially early in season 1, the darkness was 90% dormant, cause they hadn't yet experienced the horrible circumstances that would require it to manifest for their very survival.

It was a fascinating character study to watch the darkness come out stronger and stronger with each new adversity, while their light slowly diminished. Being a Borgia meant having darkness - a stain. Rodrigo had it inside him, too, and admitted it to Ces in s3e9. When Ces fully realized his father's darkness, their relationship flourished. Like with Lu, when he finally saw her darkness, he claimed her.

Alex, what you said about Ces being forced to take the cloth was spot on! It was the same conflict: good vs evil. He didn't really want to be good, but hadn't yet developed the je ne sais quoi (idk the english word ) to fully embrace the evil inside himself. He was aware of the conflict inside, cause he told Ursula, "I have tried to be other than who I am and I have failed". He was too hungry for his father's love to risk letting the darkness loose

I think Ces rejected the cloth cause the darkness was already inside him. It's why he wanted to be a soldier. He had a bloodlust and hunger for power. He killed innocent people (della Rovere's maid, for ex) with no remorse. In fact, he was very callous and joked with Micheletto while looking at her bloody body. Sure, he justified it as being for the good of the family, but someone without darkness would feel remorse and it would eat away at them. You know I ADORE Ces - let's face it tho, the boy had a switch in his brain that allowed him to become a monster. His inner darkness wasn't the result of bad circumstances (like being forced into the clergy). Bad circumstances were the result of his inner darkness. The same for Lu, which is why I keep saying she was Ces' alter ego.

Last edited by Mignonette; 10-26-2018 at 08:15 PM
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Old 10-27-2018, 02:10 PM
  #289
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Old 10-27-2018, 04:52 PM
  #290
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Thanks for that scene, Arinna!

Quote:
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Hi Alex! I'm glad you're feeling better!

Oh ok, you were using "romantic" as a euphemism for the dreaded thing we're not supposed to talk about in a forum about sibling incest

And Charlotte the virgin was good at sex? Awww, I think you have a crush on her, Alex. You've mentioned 3-somes, so would probably want her, Lu, Guila, & Caterina (did I leave out anyone? Vanozza? Ursula? Micheletto's mama? ) to all get together and I'm sorry, (not sorry ) I just had to go there. You're so easy to pick on, Alex, being the only guy here
Hi, Lila! Thanks! It was just a minor thing.

Yeah, I when I said "romantic" I mean pure animal sex. And I will admit that I did enjoy Ces and Cat's scenes because of all the sexual innuendo. She came up with a lot of metaphors for his manhood. And I know, ironic considering how much we talk about incest.

Well, Charlotte was a virgin, but she learned quickly. And she wasn't a virgin on their wedding night because they decided to get to know each other prior to the wedding. And I only mentioned a threesome between Lucrezia, Cesare, and Charlotte because they're all technically family. Not Caterina or anyone else. Although like I said, there was a European version of The Borgias that did show Ces and Lu having a threesome with Sancia, which surprised me. I don't know if I still have that scene on YouTube or not. And yes, I'm quite used to getting picked on being the only guy on the board.


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Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post)
Exactly! Yes!! That's why I keep fighting for everyone to see what Ces carrying her to bed on her wedding night was all about! An 18 year old guy doesn't carry his sister to the marital bed like a bride! AND he did it in front of her new husband - in front of everyone! It was an insult designed to humiliate and send a message to Sforza = SHE'S MINE & I'm ********** dangerous when it comes to her!

That was the message in Ces' menacing look to Sforza when he poured him some wine. He wanted Sforza to have a little flash of fear that there might be poison in that glass. He knew he couldn't directly threaten him, but he needed him to know he was a man he shouldn't cross, so he'd better treat his sister well! Ces was still a kid, only 18, but he was a man in love who'd just had to face HIS woman being married off to another man & fearing she'd be maltreated! Can you imagine how that felt?
Thanks for agreeing with me! Yep, I definitely did see that in the way that Ces carried Lu to her bed on her wedding night, and again during the scene were Lu was lying on her bed next to Alfonso while Ces cleaned her face and began kissing her and claiming her as his. In a way, he did the same thing to Giovanni Sforza, when you think about it. He made sure that Sforza knew that he was Lucrezia's protector, and then made Sforza pay for forgetting that when he killed him in season 2 for what he did to her. Oh, I can imagine how that felt for Sfroza, which is why he was probably so insecure.

I'll get to the rest of your post later, Lila. You wrote a lot and I have my other boards to moderate.
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Old 10-28-2018, 03:51 PM
  #291
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One of my favorites!
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Old 10-28-2018, 04:22 PM
  #292
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We're close to a new thread. Any title suggestions?
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:05 PM
  #293
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I was about to ask the same.
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:15 PM
  #294
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How about "Last night brought you everything you could desire?"

Rodrigo asked Lu this in front of Ces the morning after she slept with him. She looked at Ces like "hell YES!"
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Old 10-30-2018, 03:00 PM
  #295
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That's a good idea, Lila!

Wow, I can't believe we're almost finished the 50th Cesare/Lucrezia thread.
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Old 10-30-2018, 03:15 PM
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Yeah, it's a lot.
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:59 PM
  #297
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50 threads is a lot, but Cesar & Lucrezia are the most lovable & interesting couple ever!

I doubt I would've watched The Borgias if not for them (and F&H of course!)
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:58 PM
  #298
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They are the only couple here, so.
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:22 PM
  #299
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Quote:
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50 threads is a lot, but Cesar & Lucrezia are the most lovable & interesting couple ever!

I doubt I would've watched The Borgias if not for them (and F&H of course!)
I agree, Lila. And they also brought you here, so...
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:28 PM
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New thread: http://www.fanforum.com/f367/%7Bcesa...sare-63215380/
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