[Crystal Clear]

That scene always feels like a punch in the gut They had FINALLY consummated their love, and then they were forced to hide it again. So unfair.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post) Alex the irony with NJ wanting to put up sexual boundaries is that he stayed true to the taboo themes in Interview With The Vampire, and in The Borgias, he made Juan the sleaziest + most embarrassing sibling imaginable yet when it came to L/C, he held back until the very last season.

Hi, Gwen!

Yes, I've said that myself, Gwen. Neil Jordan had no problem with all the provocative themes of Interview With The Vampire. And I'd remind him that in the follow up book, The Vampire Lestat, Lestat himself has an incestuous relationship with his own mother, Gabrielle, whom he turns into a vampire. And yeah, he had no problem making Juan a total sleaze.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! To dirty minds Her showing him everything was tastefully done, but was too subtle with the camera angles. NJ with his trepidation! It was incest and maybe he wanted to show their love as being elevated, but the audience should get what's going on. Lu used her wedding dress as a seduction prop Alf became a joke between CL, didn't he? When Ces kissed her, Alf was history! She didn't think he would ever make a move. The night they made love, Ces said "no, Lucrezia, you cannot", and she said "BUT I MUST!" She knew it would be up to her to make it happen.

Hi, Lila! Yeah, dirty minds rule here! And yes, Lucrezia's nudity was shown from a very discreet angle. Holly never went full nude(at least not until the love scene with Cesare) in that bedroom scene, it was always her on her side with her dress or her blankets covering up certain areas. It was a nice tease that whet the audiences' appetite for what would follow.

I'll reply to the rest of your post later, Lila. I'm off tomorrow and I got back from work with a headache.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Yeah, dirty minds rule here! And yes, Lucrezia's nudity was shown from a very discreet angle. Holly never went full nude(at least not until the love scene with Cesare) in that bedroom scene, it was always her on her side with her dress or her blankets covering up certain areas. It was a nice tease that whet the audiences' appetite for what would follow. I'll reply to the rest of your post later, Lila. I'm off tomorrow and I got back from work with a headache.

Hi Alex! I hope your headache goes away quickly and you enjoy your day off tomorrow

What you said about Lu's nudity with Ces is interesting. She showed her breast when Sforza ripped her night dress off. And she was topless and her bottom barely covered with Paolo. François also showed more with everyone but Lu.

I'm thinking it either was because NJ was being petulant about the incest, like you've said. Or maybe we were supposed to see their lovemaking as completely different - spiritual.

Lu told Ces it was as if God was in the room with them, a spiritual transcendent experience. When she asked if Abelard and Eloise loved each other, he told her "with a love as pure and all consuming as the love of God".

They both knew they had a love that was higher, greater, more spiritual than any love they would ever know.

Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post) Very true. Most of their younger years were clearly spent with them pushing each other's buttons and Cesare seeing how long he could tease her before she made a move

Do you think he was waiting for her to make the first move Gwen? I've wondered about that. Like he felt so responsible for her protection as her older brother and if he crossed the line, he'd be failing her.

He kept asking her if it was a game when she was naked having him feel her foot. The game was his safety net just like her being a virgin kept his lust contained so he didn't cross the line with her when they were younger. Poor Ces, play with fire and well, Lu will get naked with you!

Both always knew what they wanted, but didn't know how the other would react to an overt move. When Ces kissed her, that's all it took.

Alex made a brilliant point when he said finally wearing armor and being the warrior he'd always wanted to be empowered Ces to make a move with her. It's interesting he was always her white knight, but was wearing armor when he kissed her, crossing the line into incest. After becoming her lover, it was himself and his lust he tried to protect her from

Arinna, when she screamed I love you! to him in that scene, my heart just broke for them both

[Crystal Clear]

Lila I DEFINITELY think that Cesare was waiting for Lucrezia to make the first move! He was never going to overstep the mark with her, without her consent.

...Clearly, he failed to realize that he could have kissed her at ANY point and she would have welcomed it.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Gwen! Yes, I've said that myself, Gwen. Neil Jordan had no problem with all the provocative themes of Interview With The Vampire. And I'd remind him that in the follow up book, The Vampire Lestat, Lestat himself has an incestuous relationship with his own mother, Gabrielle, whom he turns into a vampire. And yeah, he had no problem making Juan a total sleaze.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[Mignonette]

Thanks for the gif of that sweet scene, Arinna

Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post) Lila I DEFINITELY think that Cesare was waiting for Lucrezia to make the first move! He was never going to overstep the mark with her, without her consent. ...Clearly, he failed to realize that he could have kissed her at ANY point and she would have welcomed it.

I love that kissing gif, Gwen! They needed more kisses! The only real ones we got were in their lovemaking scene. This one, the armory one, and his angsty one showed their emotions, but weren't the passionate kind like when they had sex. Damn NJ

Yeah, she was staring at his lips wanting him to kiss her in their first scene when he had her on the ground There was so much sexual innuendo with him throwing her down and lying on top of her, telling her he loved her, them stroking each other, and both wanting to kiss. Not to mention she'd just seen him naked, hard, and having sex and he freshly smelled of it. WTF NJ? No incest though, just normal sibling behavior

[PhoenixRising]

Hah! Thanks for that, Gwen. Yeah, I love burning NJ over his hypocrisy.


Love that gif, Arinna!


Hi, Lila! My headache is really better, thanks. I've had a relaxing day off, but I'm on my week's vacation on July 12th. I'm gonna be looking for ways out of this job and finding a new one, along with a new place to live.

I'm glad you like talking about Lu's nudity. But yes, she uses her sexuality as a weapon, which I think she picked up from Giulia. But Holly's nudity was sparse compared with other actresses on the show. The woman playing Charlotte went all out.

I just think NJ was being an ass who didn't like his vison being questioned. He wanted to make a Renaissance version of The Godfather, and forgot that even The Godfather Part III had an incest plotline. I do agree that their lovemaking was supposed to mean more, but it still had to be shown. Yeah, it's like you said, the "love of God." They kept using the Abelard and Eloise metaphor with Ces and Lu, so what did NJ expect?

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! My headache is really better, thanks. I've had a relaxing day off, but I'm on my week's vacation on July 12th. I'm gonna be looking for ways out of this job and finding a new one, along with a new place to live. I'm glad you like talking about Lu's nudity. But yes, she uses her sexuality as a weapon, which I think she picked up from Giulia. But Holly's nudity was sparse compared with other actresses on the show. The woman playing Charlotte went all out. I just think NJ was being an ass who didn't like his vison being questioned. He wanted to make a Renaissance version of The Godfather, and forgot that even The Godfather Part III had an incest plotline. I do agree that their lovemaking was supposed to mean more, but it still had to be shown. Yeah, it's like you said, the "love of God." They kept using the Abelard and Eloise metaphor with Ces and Lu, so what did NJ expect?

I'm glad you're feeling better, Alex, and hope you find a better job and living conditions very soon

So much of the nudity was gratuitous and I'm glad Holly didn't show more. I just wanted more sex scenes with CL, and kissing especially. They were in love and I wanted them to be together a lot more

I hated Ces & Charlotte's sex scene. I never wanted to see Ces or Lu with anyone else after they became lovers. We knew he'd have sex with his wife, but didn't need to see it. Him talking to her about her maidenhead while she was riding him was so cringy. I've never liked the actress who played Charlotte (Ana Ularu) and seriously wanted to slap her naked ass off of Ces's lap

[LindaL100]

thanks for the new thread and the awesome gifs as usual

[BL.Arinna_1982]

I love all the protectiveness back from season 1. They were way more at ease back then. And then in season 3, Lucrezia was actually flirting with him and that pressure turned more sensual than ever. Remember that scene where Cesare knocked on the door and she invited him all naked? His face!

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Linda! It was all Gwen's doing.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) I'm glad you're feeling better, Alex, and hope you find a better job and living conditions very soon

Thanks, Lila. I hope I do as well.

Yeah, I'm also glad that Holly kept her nudity brief. I think Lotte went a bit further there, but I don't remember. There was a lot more nudity from a lot of the other actresses. But Holly and Francois kept it respectful.

Yeah, I understand, Lila. I didn't want to see Ces or Lu with anyone else either. OMG, you really didn't like Ana, did you? Well, I didn't mind Charlotte because she was so cool with letting Cesare love whomever he wanted and didn't mind that he was in love with someone else. All she wanted was his child, his title, and a home in France because she wanted to stay in her home country, and Cesare was free to go back to Rome and love Lucrezia all he wanted. So for that I have no problems with Charlotte. She was a lot better than Ursula.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) I love all the protectiveness back from season 1. They were way more at ease back then. And then in season 3, Lucrezia was actually flirting with him and that pressure turned more sensual than ever. Remember that scene where Cesare knocked on the door and she invited him all naked? His face!

I loved his protectiveness of her too - until it caused him to pull away after they had sex. He thought he had to protect her from his lust and blamed himself for her having to go through the consummation ordeal

They'd been flirting since scene one, but Lu amped it up in the armory in 3x02. Seeing him in armor was sexually exciting for her and Ces saw it. By caressing his armor with the lustful look she gave him, she was acknowledging his powerful masculinity and that really turned him on. It gave him the confidence to make a move on her.

They'd been wanting each other to make a move forever, but were each too uncertain of the other's reaction to go first
Lu tested the water in 2x10 when she slyly asked him to marry her. She wanted to marry him and have his children, and so did he, but both were resigned to their "impossible love"

Did you guys notice every time Ces said the word "husband" there was angst and contempt in his voice??

Ces' game playing left her confused about the seriousness of his romantic feelings and intent. She wanted to be his lover, but as a woman, she needed him to make the move or be certain he would say yes if she made it.

She knew he was taking a risk kissing her and crossing into incest. It was the move she'd been waiting for & knew the next one was up to her. His kiss told her he wanted to be her lover, but was holding back. He needed to feel certain she wanted him as her lover before he'd take another risk, so she gave him that assurance by taking off all her clothes for him

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Yeah, I understand, Lila. I didn't want to see Ces or Lu with anyone else either. OMG, you really didn't like Ana, did you? Well, I didn't mind Charlotte because she was so cool with letting Cesare love whomever he wanted and didn't mind that he was in love with someone else. All she wanted was his child, his title, and a home in France because she wanted to stay in her home country, and Cesare was free to go back to Rome and love Lucrezia all he wanted. So for that I have no problems with Charlotte. She was a lot better than Ursula.

Hi Alex! Yeah, I don't like that actress. Her nudity with Ces was full frontal, bouncing breasts, etc, and was unnecessary and self indulgent. That whole sex scene was gratuitous. Don't even get me started on icky Ursula

I agree Charlotte was cool about everything with Ces. Although it wouldn't have mattered to Cesare Borgia; he'd have done whatever he wanted regardless. Lu was the only woman he did anything for or took direction from.

I got my revenge on her for daring to touch Lu's man He didn't care about Charlotte on the show or IRL. He only stayed with her for 3 months - like a stallion impregnating a mare, he got her pregnant and left. He never saw her again & never saw their daughter, who was 2 when he died. He sent gifts occasionally and talked about visiting them or bringing them to Italy, but made zero effort. He told many people and wrote letters to Lu telling her she was the only woman he'd ever loved.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

I love that gif, Arinna!


Hi, Lila! Oh, so you just don't like Ana? Well, there was a lot of gratuitous nudity on The Borgias, to be honest, which is why I appreciated the subtlety of Ces and Lu's love scenes. And I won't mention Ursula. But like I said, at least Charlotte was cool with Cesare loving Lucrezia(even thought she didn't know who it was) and not being a jealous or possessive wife. I liked the way she pronounced his name. "Shez-a-re Borgia." Very French.

But you're right, once Cesare was out of France and back home in Rome, he didn't spend much time thinking of her. He was all about Lucrezia from that point on. I didn't know that Cesare never saw his own daughter, though. Lucrezia still loved her son, even if Cesare wasn't the father. We'll never know if he was or not. But he certainly did act like a father with Lu's son, both on the show and in real life, where he named him heir to his estate.

[Mignonette]

Thanks for the slo-mo gif, Arinna!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) But you're right, once Cesare was out of France and back home in Rome, he didn't spend much time thinking of her. He was all about Lucrezia from that point on. I didn't know that Cesare never saw his own daughter, though. Lucrezia still loved her son, even if Cesare wasn't the father. We'll never know if he was or not. But he certainly did act like a father with Lu's son, both on the show and in real life, where he named him heir to his estate.

Hi Alex! Cesare did act like Giovanni's father on the show & IRL.

On the show, he paced like an expectant father, looking horrified every time she yelled in pain, and was the first to hold him.

I loved when he carried him to Alf & Lu's bedroom in Rome after their escape from Naples. Alf was watching him with Lu and the baby & when she giggled after Ces joked that Alf would need a bigger cot, he saw how Ces made her happy - something he'd never been able to do. Only Ces could do that. Earlier, she'd been in her brother's arms, making out with him in front of Alf and neither she nor Ces cared what he thought about it

Yes, Lucrezia seemed to love all her children, regardless of who fathered them. Some men see their children differently depending on whether they love the the child's mother. Cesare said Lucrezia was the only woman he'd ever loved. He was known for having no regard for women, but Lucrezia always had him wrapped around her finger.

You're right, Cesare IRL claimed Giovanni as his, made him his sole heir (even though he later had other illegitimate sons), and gave his care to Lucrezia.