[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Thanks for the kissing scene, Arinna!

Hi, Lila!

Wow, thanks for agreeing with me so much. I normally have women telling me I'm wrong about stuff. Yep, that's a good point. Lucrezia was the innocence and light to Cesare's darkness, but after having sex with him she began to explore her own darkness and draw strength and empowerment from it. Yeah, it was kind of odd but sweet that they still referred to each other as brother and sister, but I think that relationship had been deepened by their incest as a result.

Well of course we'll never understand women. But I'm not surprised that you said you also barely understand yourselves. Ugh, Ursula is one example, but not my favorite. She was so conflicted that she didn't seem to know what she wanted. I don't know if that was because of her, or because of bad writing, though.

[Make Them Laugh]

thanks for sharing Arinna

[Mignonette]

Thanks for the slo-mo, Arinna! I love the look on his face when he opened his eyes during the kiss - it's like he was having an out of body experience & came back to reality

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Thanks for the kissing scene, Arinna! Hi, Lila! Wow, thanks for agreeing with me so much. I normally have women telling me I'm wrong about stuff. Yep, that's a good point. Lucrezia was the innocence and light to Cesare's darkness, but after having sex with him she began to explore her own darkness and draw strength and empowerment from it. Yeah, it was kind of odd but sweet that they still referred to each other as brother and sister, but I think that relationship had been deepened by their incest as a result. Well of course we'll never understand women. But I'm not surprised that you said you also barely understand yourselves. Ugh, Ursula is one example, but not my favorite. She was so conflicted that she didn't seem to know what she wanted. I don't know if that was because of her, or because of bad writing, though.

Hi Alex! I loved that their sibling relationship became stronger after sex, like it was them against the world - as lovers & as siblings. You're the only one I've read who's made that observation.

Really, women tell you you're wrong about stuff you analyze from the show? I think you're very insightful & agree with your analyses most of the time.

I wondered about Ursula, if it was bad writing or something else. I really disliked her. It was tragic how she died, but I was glad she was gone. She was manipulative & always played the victim. Maybe Ces should've brought out handcuffs & a paddle - since she was such a masochist.

And my god, what a ***** tease she was! I want Ces, but..but..but..ughhhhh She kept that up even at the convent - she was still teasing him & when he responded, she rang that stupid little bell for help, like he was a damned rapist!

His voice was so emotional as he said, "I'd hoped you'd given me your body freely..", when she accused him of deceiving her for sex after killing her husband. She hurt him. But she was too selfish, busy wallowing in self pity, & blaming him for something SHE set in motion to ever be attentive to his feelings.

The reason I felt no empathy for her, was because she felt none for Ces.

Even when he was brutish by shoving her into the corner & groping her in front of the painter, I still had no empathy for her. It wasn't nice what he did, but I understood his frustration with her craziness.

[Make Them Laugh]

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Thanks for the slo-mo, Arinna! I love the look on his face when he opened his eyes during the kiss - it's like he was having an out of body experience & came back to reality

that happens sometimes...out of body experience...

[BL.Arinna_1982]

Yeah, like... Deja Vu?

[PhoenixRising]

The slow mo is good, Arinna.

Hi, Lila!

Yep, that's exactly how I saw Cesare and Lucrezia, as two against the world. That's what their dynamic was in season two, both against Juan and against their own father forcing them to do whatever he wanted them to do. And I'm the only one you've seen make that observation? Thanks. Yeah, sometimes I do get told I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, not just stuff from the show. But thanks for the compliment.

I think Ursula was just bad writing, bad casting, just bad all around. Her character was fictional and not part of the Borgias history, and the show does tend to lose focus when it does stuff like that. Oh, so you think she'd have liked doing the whole Fifty Shades of Grey thing? Perhaps Lucrezia would like that as well. But yeah, Ursula was a tease, but she was totally conflicted and didn't really seem to know what she wanted, or care about the consequences of her actions. I forgot about the bell.

Well, I did feel empathy for her at the end. She didn't deserve to die, being ravaged and murdered by King Charles' men. I understood why Cesare was furious with her, and I think even she admitted that she was at fault for hurting him and for bringing about the death of her husband. But she didn't deserve what happened to her. I think that's when the darkness entered Cesare because he was different from that moment on.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) I think that's when the darkness entered Cesare because he was different from that moment on.

Hi Alex! I agree the casting was bad for Ursula's character. She was supposed to be an unconscious substitute for Lu in Ces' mind. She was blonde & married to a brute, but nothing else about her was similar to Lu. Ruta is big, almost as tall as François & Holly's petite & very short. Did you know François was involved with Ruta for a short time during season 1, & then Holly throughout season 3? He did have chemistry with Ruta, but not like with Holly. It was obvious he & Holly were lovers in the bloopers from season 3. She was totally naked & was so authentically comfortable with him being all over her in a way that only lovers can be. It wasn't acting. They were joking around after the action was cut, but the camera was still rolling.

Interesting point you made about Ces' darkness beginning after Ursula's death. Lu noticed it too, cause that's when she told him his hands were stained with blood. And I agree Ursula didn't deserve to be raped & murdered. It was just very hard to have empathy for her. Sympathy yes, empathy no, cause she had none for Ces when she hurt him & treated him like a sex predator. I'm sure men love being treated as predators, especially by women they love.

Ursula was a sub for Lu, so her death affected the way he dealt with his emotions after he & Lu became lovers. After Sforza, he became super protective of Lu & when Ursula died, he blamed himself for not being able to save her. Then he blamed himself for not being a stronger man & resisting Lu sexually. He unconsciously associated loving a woman with putting her in danger. If he hadn't had Ursula, his conflict over being Lu's lover wouldn't have been such an obstacle. He still would've been conflicted since he saw himself as her protector, but he wouldn't have been so hard on himself, keeping her at a distance. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch

[BL.Arinna_1982]

But remember when she told him at the last episode? She said that Alfonso knows about them. That made me think that they continued with their affair even after the wedding. When it seemed like they stopped.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post) But remember when she told him at the last episode? She said that Alfonso knows about them. That made me think that they continued with their affair even after the wedding. When it seemed like they stopped.

OMG Arinna, I've been saying the same thing! There were clues scattered throughout season 3 that they WERE still lovers! You're right, in the finale, Lu did tell Ces that Alf knew & she also told him they had to be careful that Alf didn't find out & cause a scandal in s3e9.

Here are the clues I saw:

1. The fireworks scene in Naples. Ces returned to Rome from France & informed his father of his marriage, his control of the french army, & his plan to crush the Sforza dynasty beginning in Milan. But he didn't go to Milan, which is only a 2 day ride north of Rome. NO, he went to Naples first to see his sister. A 4 day ride FROM ROME, then 4 days back, then 2 more days to Milan - 8 travel days out of his way. King Louis URGENTLY needed Milan taken. If Ces hadn't made the trip to Naples, Ludavico would've still been in Milan & been captured there. The King was angry with Ces for letting Ludavco elude him. Ces FINALLY had his army - he was in command, HIS DREAM, but what was more important to him? That's right = Lu. That scene wasn't about a silly carnival. It was telling us THEY WERE TOGETHER. Was anyone else with them? No. They went to the carnival alone together - as a couple. Do we believe he went all that way to see her for that 30 second scene of talking, to watch puppets & fireworks? Uh no...

2. The scene that Alex says should've been a morning after, when she woke him running her fingertips from his groin up to his face where he grabs her neck & kisses it. Why was he NOT SURPRISED to find her in his bed in her nightgown running her hands over him? And notice the scene begins with her placing her hand over his which was covering his ****. Her hand hesitates, wanting to slide under the blanket. I've always believed it WAS the morning after sex, cause the scene opens with her already in his bed. He was absolutely going to have sex with her when he put her finger in his mouth & said "everything?". She's the one who stopped him by saying, "come visit soon", since she lived in Naples with her HUSBAND. Her bringing up Alf, even indirectly, really turned Ces off, cause that's when he froze up. He wouldn't even return her little nose rub; he just sighed & turned away. A man doesn't go from sucking & biting a woman's finger (while HE'S naked in bed with her!) to nah, no thanks.. His EVERYTHING was very sexual: it said "Oh really, you have your husband..so you have everything? No, you don't, cause he doesn't **** you like I do!" He turned away from her, because she referred to her husband yet AGAIN & it irritated the **** out of him. Remember who he is with Lu: POSSESSIVE JEALOUS. He can't handle that ****!

3. The "where's the scandal?" scene. He gave HER (not her & Alf) that palace the day after she returned to Rome from Naples. He'd planned everything as soon as he'd heard she & Giovannii were being held captive by the king. Notice Alf wasn't with them when Ces brought her to the palace. It was just the 2 of them. When she asked, "why here?" He said, "YOU need a place of your own....away from prying eyes." HELLO!! Wasn't his intention obvious? He'd told Paolo Orsini, "I would know where she is, and where her husband is, at EVERY hour of every day". He wanted to know when she'd be alone at the palace, so he could be with her without worrying about Alf catching them! She knew exactly what Ces wanted, cause she asked him "what if he (Alf) were to decide to ride back to Naples?" She was testing the waters to gauge Ces' intentions for Alf. She wanted to be rid of him so she & Ces could be together & had hoped he could just ride away alive & disppear into the sunset. But of course Ces would never allow that. She knew he would likely kill him, but she said nothing. Her sole focus was on being with Ces, cause she told him, "he could cause public scandal if he were to intimate any impropriety between us.." When he asked, "where's the scandal?", she said, "You KNOW where the scandal is", then led him away by the hand to her bedroom. How do we know? Cause in the garden, they'd walked over to the bottom of the stairs leading up to the bedrooms.

4. The confession scene in the final episode, where Lu tells him what she wants from him: his touch, his child, HIM. "Why is your touch the only one that soothes me? (meaning turns me on), "my husband seems only capable when he's in his cups" (he sucks in bed & I don't want him), "you're the only thing I never tire of". She was irritated by his refusal to kiss her, telling him that he'd spent a lifetime pulling away from her & she was tired of it. Does that mean they only had sex once, just because only the one sex scene was explicit? No. Think about it, Ces knew where kissing her in that moment would lead - the bedroom - and he told her, "I must leave soon". He was going off to battle. Plus Alf was coming home - Ces KNEW this, but Lu DIDN'T. She didn't know Paolo told Ces Alf's every move!

Why did the writers make us deduce all this instead of being more overt? My opinion is because NJ wasn't ok with the sexual aspect of the incest, perhaps he was skittish of audience reaction, so he chose to play it much more subtle. So subtle, unfortunately, that most people completely missed it!

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila!

I don't have an issue with that actress, per se, I just think that she was wrong for that role. I think Cesare had more chemistry with the actress playing Charlotte than he did with Ursula. He definitely had more chemistry with Caterina and especially Lucrezia. But the scenes with Ursula just fell flat for me. OMG, did you say that Francois was involved with both Ruta and Holly? I never heard that. Are you sure? I do know that he was close with Ruta, but I never heard that he and Holly were involved. I also know that Francois worked with Ana on another project after The Borgias. I don't think any of us heard anything about Francois and Holly.

Thanks. It did seem like Cesare changed dramatically after Ursula's death, even losing his faith to an extent. Ah, I see what you mean by empathy. Yes, it's difficult to have that for her because she's just so frustrating in the way she treated Cesare. But yeah, I do have sympathy for her. And I think pretty much everyone Cesare was with was a substitute for Lu, just as Paolo and that painter were substitutes for Cesare as far as Lu was concerned. And I think you're right that he wanted to protect Lucrezia from himself because he feared that any woman who loved him would end up like Ursula. Perhaps that's why he didn't mind sleeping with Caterina, because he knew he didn't have to worry about her. And Charlotte was safe in France, so there was no need to worry about her either. Lucrezia was the main cause for his worry, so that's probably why he always kept her at arm's length until she just wasn't having that anymore and seduced him.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! I don't have an issue with that actress, per se, I just think that she was wrong for that role. I think Cesare had more chemistry with the actress playing Charlotte than he did with Ursula. He definitely had more chemistry with Caterina and especially Lucrezia. But the scenes with Ursula just fell flat for me. OMG, did you say that Francois was involved with both Ruta and Holly? I never heard that. Are you sure? I do know that he was close with Ruta, but I never heard that he and Holly were involved. I also know that Francois worked with Ana on another project after The Borgias. I don't think any of us heard anything about Francois and Holly. Thanks. It did seem like Cesare changed dramatically after Ursula's death, even losing his faith to an extent. Ah, I see what you mean by empathy. Yes, it's difficult to have that for her because she's just so frustrating in the way she treated Cesare. But yeah, I do have sympathy for her. And I think pretty much everyone Cesare was with was a substitute for Lu, just as Paolo and that painter were substitutes for Cesare as far as Lu was concerned. And I think you're right that he wanted to protect Lucrezia from himself because he feared that any woman who loved him would end up like Ursula. Perhaps that's why he didn't mind sleeping with Caterina, because he knew he didn't have to worry about her. And Charlotte was safe in France, so there was no need to worry about her either. Lucrezia was the main cause for his worry, so that's probably why he always kept her at arm's length until she just wasn't having that anymore and seduced him.

Hi Alex!

He didn't love Caterina or Charlotte & neither loved him, so he never feared for their safety. It wasn't a matter of having sex, it was being in love that triggered this fear in him. He seduced Caterina as a war strategy. The only womanly part of her was her baby making equipment. She even told him she was a freak of nature. He was curious. She was never a lover in any romantic sense. She was a trophy, an anomaly, a challenge.

If he kept Lu at arm's length prior to her speeding up the seduction, I'm not convinced it was because he feared for her. It was more that he was afraid OF her - of being less in her eyes. Fearing for her came later, after they were lovers. I think he just wasn't sure how she felt about taking things to the sexual level, and because he was so deeply in love with her, he was terrified to find out cause what if she didn't feel like he did? Better safe than taking that risk of soul crushing rejection. The seduction happened, because a perfect storm fell upon him: she was marrying again & leaving Rome, he felt more empowered & confident as a warrior, & Lu started giving him stronger signals. It's no accident he kissed her for the first time while in armour. The armour protected his ego just as it protected his body. He was less afraid of her possible response. Imagine being head over heels in love with your best friend. You're desperate to have her, but terrified she won't feel as you do, so do you risk losing her entirely or play it safe? Finally becoming the warrior he'd always seen himself as & putting on that armour, gave his ego a dose of Superman power. Even then, he was so scared of her rejecting his advances, that he only gave her a sort of kiss. He was so tough & ruthless, but Lu made him feel vulnerable & timid when it came to risking her affection.

Huh Alex, how could I be sure he was involved with someone unless I was an eyewitness? Just observe people & trust your instincts. We're animals, we pick up subliminal cues, but most of us aren't observant and aware. The honest bodily interactions between people tell you everything you want to know about them: body language, looks, etc. Rumours may or may not be true, but the unconscious doesn't lie. Watch François & Holly on the blooper vid & decide for yourself. An actor can't pretend chemistry, authentic emotion, or sexual arousal - those elements are there or they're not - and properly trained actors know this and don't try.

He was rumoured to be involved with Ana during filming of The Man Who Was Thursday. An extra in the movie posted on her Instagram account (which she subsequently removed) talking about how more-than-cozy Ana & François were especially off set. He's frequently involved with his female co-stars. His current gf, Sarah Gadon, was in The Girl King with him. They've been together since 2014, just after his rumoured fling with Ana. It makes sense he'd date co-stars, cause he works all the time - who else would he meet?

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)

Her look seems to say: And speaking of scandal, let's go make some more...

[PhoenixRising]

Hi, Lila!

Oh, I know that Cesare didn't really love them, but I'm sure that he cared about Charlotte being the mother of his child, and he didn't have to worry about her since she was in France. And Caterina was something else entirely. That was more like "enemy sex" if that makes sense. And yes, she was a challenge.

Oh, so you think that Ces was afraid of Lu and not for her? That's cool. But why would he be less in her eyes? He should know that there was nothing he could do that would ever make her feel that way about him. Wow, you really do love mentioning how he kissed her while wearing armor. So I guess that was a metaphor, huh?

Oh, I see. So it's possible that Francois was involved with Ana and Holliday, but we don't know for sure? I still haven't been able to find out anything, but I guess it's the body language, right. Man, the chemistry was all over the place with Francois and Holly. I haven't even heard anything about his current girlfriend.

I'm sorry, let me reply to the rest of your comment tomorrow. I got to the board a bit late, but I'm off work after tomorrow and I'll reply more then.