[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Arinna is the gif queen.

Thanks, Lila! Yep, I think it would make sense for Ces to get Lu a place where they could meet privately. And Charlotte wasn't clueless, she knew Cesare would be cheating on her with the woman he actually loved. Like I said, she just wanted his child, his title, and a home in France and she was fine. Yeah, Ces had plans for him and Lu.

OMG, in real life their apartments were adjoined? I had no idea. And OMG, that is quite a coincidence. Thanks for mentioning that, Lila. This is the first I've heard of that incident. So Ces and Lu could've spent some quality time together before she got pregnant. The show made it seem like she was at Sforza's castle the whole time.

Oh, yeah... that "you know what the scandal is, brother" scene was back in Rome. I don't know why I forgot about that. I do remember the carriage scene where they reunited, but I forgot where the "scandal" scene took place, probably because I was focused mostly on the carriage scene and the scene where Lucrezia surprises Ces in bed and he grabs her by the neck and kisses her.

[Mignonette]

Thanks Arinna I always enjoy your gifs!

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) And Charlotte wasn't clueless, she knew Cesare would be cheating on her with the woman he actually loved. Like I said, she just wanted his child, his title, and a home in France and she was fine. Yeah, Ces had plans for him and Lu.

Hi Alex! Oh yes, I know. What I meant by her being clueless was WHO Ces was in love with Clueless about him getting his sister a palace they could share, sexing her up & having a baby with her OMG can you imagine if Charlotte knew THAT?

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) OMG, in real life their apartments were adjoined? I had no idea. And OMG, that is quite a coincidence. Thanks for mentioning that, Lila. This is the first I've heard of that incident. So Ces and Lu could've spent some quality time together before she got pregnant. The show made it seem like she was at Sforza's castle the whole time.

Yes! His apartment adjoined her house in Rome & she lived there when Ces killed Alfonso after they left Naples - sound familiar? Ces had apartments at the Vatican, but the other was much more private & next to Lu . Lu & Sforza lived in Pesaro in the beginning of their marriage, but Ces moved them into the palace adjoined to his apartment, cause Lu wanted to be in Rome. Only a short time later, Sforza fled back to Pesaro in fear of Ces. He tried to get Lu back, but she refused. Sforza never went near Ces again, and it was Rodrigo he accused of incest, not Ces. He didn't dare! He killed any man too close to Lu. Even his own brother.

Juan had an intense rivalry with Ces and knew he loved Lu intensely. Shortly before his murder, he started spending lots of time with her, provoking Ces' jealousy & anger. The wounds on Juan's body showed a rage killing: 9 stab wounds, including one to his face going into his head, he was beaten, and had his throat cut, most likely by a garottte, which was Ces' & Micheletto's favorite method of killing. It was a Spanish invention, not used much by Italians.

When Juan's body was found, Rodrigo had hundreds of soldiers scouring Rome for his killer. But then suddenly only a couple of days later, he called off the search after meeting privately with Ces. The search was never resumed, even though the killer hadn't been found. Ces had the top 2 most powerful murder motives: jealousy and envy.

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Oh, yeah... that "you know what the scandal is, brother" scene was back in Rome. I don't know why I forgot about that. I do remember the carriage scene where they reunited, but I forgot where the "scandal" scene took place, probably because I was focused mostly on the carriage scene and the scene where Lucrezia surprises Ces in bed and he grabs her by the neck and kisses her.

OMG Alex, watch the Scandal scene again and see if you think they were going off to have sex. Watch where they walk when she mentions scandal & where they end up standing when she drags him off. Watch their body language, how he grabs her low around the waist pulling her into his pelvis, how she looks at his lips then smiles at him, and he then looks at her lips, she sees it, gets a satisfied look on her face smiling, then leads him off somewhere. Put all that together after the carriage scene from the night before, Ces telling her he got the palace to avoid prying eyes, Alf still being at the Vatican not yet knowing about the palace, and Ces telling Orsini he would know where Alf was "every hour of every day". . Damn NJ and his ambivalence over their incest. He gave us only one actual sex scene, but never said they only had sex once. We're supposed to deduce things from his ambiguous writing

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

I love that scene, Arinna! That's right before Cesare and Lucrezia had their Twilight moment on the grass.

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! Oh yes, I know. What I meant by her being clueless was WHO Ces was in love with Clueless about him getting his sister a palace they could share, sexing her up & having a baby with her OMG can you imagine if Charlotte knew THAT?

Hi, Lila! Oh, you meant that kind of clueless. I wonder if Charlotte would have even cared? She's French, after all.


Wow, so that adjoining house was there while Alf was still alive? And Cesare had Lu and Sforza move back to Rome so they could be near him? That wasn't in the show. I wonder why NJ ignored that little pit of historical information? And are you sure that Sforza never accused Ces and Lu of incest? Because I read that he was the first one who accused them of incest.

Wow, so Juan had that many stab wounds? And a garotte? Yeah, that definitely sounds like a rage killing and it has Mich and Ces' fingerprints all over it. You think Juan was making advances on Lu as well? And Rodrigo calling off the search after meeting with Ces is consistent with the show's second season. Ironically, on both shows, Rodrigo had Cesare search for the killer.

I really wanted them to have sex after that scandal scene, Lila. The way he was holding her definitely showed that they were turned on, but for some reason we were denied another sex scene. I was really hoping we'd get one after Lu returned to Rome, probably while Alf was passed out drunk. I'm done with getting mad at NJ. If he didn't see the potential of his own show and Ces and Lu's relationship it's his loss.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! Oh, you meant that kind of clueless. I wonder if Charlotte would have even cared? She's French, after all.

Hi Alex! Oui, we french are open-minded about sex and tolerant of many things if they're done discretely . Sibling incest is not uncommon, so maybe Charlotte was too busy with a brother of her own to worry about Ces

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Wow, so that adjoining house was there while Alf was still alive? And Cesare had Lu and Sforza move back to Rome so they could be near him? That wasn't in the show. I wonder why NJ ignored that little pit of historical information? And are you sure that Sforza never accused Ces and Lu of incest? Because I read that he was the first one who accused them of incest.

Yes. Alf, Lu, & baby Rodrigo were living in that house in Rome when Alf died. Gian Lucido Cattaneo, the Mantuan ambassador, reported in a missive, "Valentia (Cesare) goes about very strong and heavily guarded now and on the second day after Don Alfonso was most privately buried, this Valentia went to visit his sister D. Lucrezia in her house which adjoins his private apartments. From the palace he entered her antechamber in the midst of 100 halberdiers in full armour, and seems to have great suspicion of the Colonnesi and the King of Naples, it seeming to him that there can be no more friendship between them."

Cesare and Rodrigo both wanted Lucrezia to live in Rome with them, and she wanted that also. Sfoza wasn't happy about it, but wanted to stay in the pope's favor. Cesare became very menacing towards him. Sforza got word he had plans to kill him one night, so he fled in disguise that same night to Pesaro. Cesare kept him on the run afterwards with constant death threats. Sforza wrote to Ludavco begging for sanctuary and protection from him. Rodrigo had him excommunicated, which meant he lost all property, titles, everything. And guess who took it? Right, Cesare. He stayed at the castle (now his) in Pesaro and slept in the same bedroom Sfora and Lu had slept in during their marriage. That was a big slap in the face to Sfoza, rubbing in his loss of Lucrezia and also revealing Cesare's sexual jealousy. I'm not aware of any reliable accounts of him accusing Cesare publicly of incest. Privately, he probably did. He did publicly say Rodrigo lied about his impotence, because he wanted Lucrezia for himself. But Sfoza certainly did not start the incest rumours about the siblings. Those rumours had been around for years, because of their behavior towards each other. So even if he had accused Cesare of incest with his sister, people would've shrugged and said, "so, what's new?"

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Wow, so Juan had that many stab wounds? And a garotte? Yeah, that definitely sounds like a rage killing and it has Mich and Ces' fingerprints all over it. You think Juan was making advances on Lu as well? And Rodrigo calling off the search after meeting with Ces is consistent with the show's second season. Ironically, on both shows, Rodrigo had Cesare search for the killer.

There's a lot of misinformation about the Borgias and Google isn't an accurate historian, especially english language Google. Texts have been translated from Italian (not modern, but the old Latin Italian), so there are mistranslations everywhere. I speak Italian fluently and have trouble understanding the writing sometimes, so have sympathy for translators. When I was a baccalaureate student, I spent a year studying in Rome. The Borgias had fascinated me forever, so I spent (way too much) time there researching them. As for NJ, he was writing for television entertainment and he actually did include a lot of factual stuff, and alluded to even more.

Yeah, Juan's killing was brutal and the slit throat was consistent with being garotted. I don't know if Juan made sexual advances, but Lucrezia loved only Cesare with that kind of intensity, so maybe he did try something and she told Ces. He was definitely angry about him spending so much time with her, because he had voiced it. The incest rumours were already widespread, in part because of how he acted so possessive and jealous with her, like a lover. This was the reason he instantly became the prime suspect. He became gonfaloniere of the papal armies later, and that was seen as a secondary motive.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[Mignonette]

That's one of my favorite gifs, capturing perfectly his "at last" Thanks Arinna

[PhoenixRising]

That's one of my favorite scenes, Arinna!

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Hi Alex! Oui, we french are open-minded about sex and tolerant of many things if they're done discretely . Sibling incest is not uncommon, so maybe Charlotte was too busy with a brother of her own to worry about Ces

Hi, Lila! How did I know you'd say that? Well, I've heard that it happens, but how common is it?

Thanks for that info about what was going on after Alf died. I really wish we'd have seen that on the show because it would've been awesome to see Cesare sneaking in for visits with Lu while looking for her next husband whom she wouldn't even have to have sex with.

Yeah, I heard about the threats made against Sforza by Cesare, and this is what led Sforza to leave. That, and the accusations of impotence. But it was Rodrigo he accused? Okay, so who accused Lu and Ces of incest? Those rumors had to come from somewhere. I assumed it was Sforza because of what had happened. Too bad Ces couldn't have killed him in real life like on the show. It's great that you had the chance to study in Rome, Lila. No wonder you're a fan of the show. It's great to have you here so you can fill in some of the blanks with the history.


Well, Borgia is the show that alluded to Juan making advances towards Lucrezia, but I don't know if that happened. I always hear about how much Lucrezia loved Cesare, but I really want to know if there was any evidence that anything had happened between them at all. I'm surprised that Lucrezia and Cesare weren't both prime suspects.

[Mignonette]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Hi, Lila! How did I know you'd say that? Well, I've heard that it happens, but how common is it? Thanks for that info about what was going on after Alf died. I really wish we'd have seen that on the show because it would've been awesome to see Cesare sneaking in for visits with Lu while looking for her next husband whom she wouldn't even have to have sex with. Yeah, I heard about the threats made against Sforza by Cesare, and this is what led Sforza to leave. That, and the accusations of impotence. But it was Rodrigo he accused? Okay, so who accused Lu and Ces of incest? Those rumors had to come from somewhere. I assumed it was Sforza because of what had happened. Too bad Ces couldn't have killed him in real life like on the show. It's great that you had the chance to study in Rome, Lila. No wonder you're a fan of the show. It's great to have you here so you can fill in some of the blanks with the history. Well, Borgia is the show that alluded to Juan making advances towards Lucrezia, but I don't know if that happened. I always hear about how much Lucrezia loved Cesare, but I really want to know if there was any evidence that anything had happened between them at all. I'm surprised that Lucrezia and Cesare weren't both prime suspects.

Thanks Alex, I love discussing the Borgia family . I'm up very early this morning and busy working on my research project, so don't have a lot of time. But yes, Sforza blamed Rodrigo for the annulment and forcing him to say he was impotent, so he said he did it so that he could have her for himself. The event that caused the incest rumours of her & Cesare to really blow up was the circumstances around baby Giovanni.

Idk Juan's motivation for getting closer to Lucrezia. Whatever it was, it didn't change CL relationship. Juan was killed after they grew closer, so the timing was suspicious. Lucrezia wasn't a suspect probably because of the manner of death, but she was rumoured to be the cause of the brothers' rivalry related to Cesare's motive of jealousy.

It's hard to know when the rumours started about Cesare and Lucrezia, because so many people had suspicions. Cesare dropped everything and ran to her when she needed him & he told people she was the only woman he'd ever cared for, so anyone looking at just those 2 things could see his feelings for her were more than brotherly. The evidence for incest is circumstantial, as would be expected if they tried to hide it and given Cesare's ruthlessness. In criminal courts, almost all convictions are based on circumstantial evidence. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

They were inseparable as children, playing, sleeping, and bathing together. Rodrigo said when she was born, Cesare fell in love with her at first sight. Those were his exact words. He treated her like a baby doll and was very protective. They were both very beautiful as children and teens, so it's possible their childhood love ignited at puberty into something more.

[BL.Arinna_1982]

[PhoenixRising]

Thanks for that gif, Arinna! Another awesome scene!


You're welcome, Lila. We're glad you can be here to discuss the Borgias with us.

Oh, I see. That's why you're not here when I am. I usually go to bed around 9pm(21:00) eastern time USA because I have to get up for work at 4am. I hope your research project is going well.

Ah, thanks for explaining that. So if it was the birth of Giovanni that started the rumors, do you know if there was anyone specifically that accused Ces and Lu of incest? I know it's hart to know exactly when the rumors started, but was it ever mentioned who spread them?

OMG, Ces and Lu slept and bathed together as children? That makes sense. Wow, Ces fell in love with her when she was born? How old was he? Awww, he was really infatuated with her when they were kids, wasn't he?

Well, in Borgia it was shown that Juan had a thing for Lucrezia, but on The Borgias it was never clear why David's Juan was so furious about her being with Paolo. But in real life you're saying that she was at the center of a rivalry between Juan and Cesare over her affection? That would've been really interesting to see on the Showtime series.

[Mignonette]

Thanks, Ariina for the gif - it's so hot when Ces slams her up against the wall and towers over her

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Ah, thanks for explaining that. So if it was the birth of Giovanni that started the rumors, do you know if there was anyone specifically that accused Ces and Lu of incest? I know it's hart to know exactly when the rumors started, but was it ever mentioned who spread them? OMG, Ces and Lu slept and bathed together as children? That makes sense. Wow, Ces fell in love with her when she was born? How old was he? Awww, he was really infatuated with her when they were kids, wasn't he? Well, in Borgia it was shown that Juan had a thing for Lucrezia, but on The Borgias it was never clear why David's Juan was so furious about her being with Paolo. But in real life you're saying that she was at the center of a rivalry between Juan and Cesare over her affection? That would've been really interesting to see on the Showtime series.

Hi Alex! One person who spoke of the incest was Polo Capello, a powerful Venetian envoy. He wrote a government report to the Senate on the murder of Lucrezia's husband and said this of Cesare: "The pope loves and fears his son who is physically most beautiful, he is tall and well-made, and they say this Duke sleeps with his sister". In this report, he officially accused Cesare of ordering the murders of Alfonso and Juan, alluding to jealousy as the motive.

The siblings grew up in Rome, so incest had already been whispered by people observing them. Baby Giovanni's appearance at the Vatican coinciding with Lu's divorce/convent stay, and Cesare claiming the baby as his, gave the rumours much more power and credibility.

Cesare was 4 1/2 years old when Lucrezia was born. Juan was a year younger than Cesare. I don't know of anyone saying that Juan had any attachment to her growing up. But Cesare's very strong attachment to her from early childhood was unusual.

IRL Rodrigo spoke of how close they were and how Cesare was infatuated with his little sister. He was absolutely in love with her all throughout his life from the day she was born. Rodrigo told stories like how Cesare would sit at her cradle and just watch her sleep - as a tiny boy. How sweet is that?

It was an instant bond for Cesare, and Lucrezia sensed it even as a baby, because her love for him was just as strong as his was for her. If ever there were true soulmates, it was Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia.

IRL Cesare and Juan's rivalry was caused by Rodrigo favoring Juan. He made Cesare a bishop as a little boy, even though he didn't want to have a life in the clergy. Juan could do whatever he wanted, but Cesare couldn't. In the show, Rodrigo told Cesare that Juan's death was his fault because he'd always favored him.

I think Juan killed Paolo only because he was a peasant and not worthy of a Borgia. Juan was very arrogant and entitled. Remember when he told Rodrigo he wouldn't marry anyone who wasn't first rate royalty? I don't think it was anything more than that, because there was no foreshadowing or hints of any feelings for Lu. And Borgia was just a bizarre show. Lu killing Juan? Ces being sodomized? WTF

IRL The rivalry over Lu's affection started when Juan began spending time getting closer to her shortly before his death. Cesare didn't give him a chance to come between them - not that anyone could have. Juan's motive was unclear, but it's likely he developed some feelings for her, which would've sent Cesare over the edge. Juan was a fool. He knew better than to incur Cesare's wrath by messing with Lu

[BL.Arinna_1982]

That's back from season 1.

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post) Thanks, Ariina for the gif - it's so hot when Ces slams her up against the wall and towers over her Hi Alex! One person who spoke of the incest was Polo Capello, a powerful Venetian envoy. He wrote a government report to the Senate on the murder of Lucrezia's husband and said this of Cesare: "The pope loves and fears his son who is physically most beautiful, he is tall and well-made, and they say this Duke sleeps with his sister". In this report, he officially accused Cesare of ordering the murders of Alfonso and Juan, alluding to jealousy as the motive.

Hi, Lila! Ohh, so there was an actual account of an accusation? That's awesome!

Tall, well-made, and sleeps with his sister, huh? That's a pretty good endorsement.


Oh, so this guy accused Cesare of killing both Juan and Alfonso? Well, that's actually probably true, but I think he overlooked that both Juan and Alfonso wanted Cesare out of the way and possibly attempted to assassinate him.

I'm gonna reply to the rest of your post soon, Lila. My vacation starts tomorrow, so I'll have more time to post.