Zefiro

Aww Kit. I am not a fangirl of real people, but I wish him all the best the same. The work he did with Jon was always the best for me, no matter the circumstances of his character, he always gave a top-notch performance and I deeply respect him for this professionally. He grew up with Jon and we've seen him becoming a man throughout the years. All the best, truly.

Well, many believe that we could get a glimpse of Jon's inside of Ghost. A chapter like that would be weird but I would love to read it. I would also love to read inside his mind to be honest after this death experience.
I have no idea if GRRM is going to give it to us or not, at the end of the day, think of Stannis...He's anyway a big protagonist of the play and we've never been inside his head.

Certainly, the scene between could be applied to Cersei and Jaimie...mostly because Jon never gave me the impression he actually loved Daenerys. I was actually thinking before the final episode that Jon was only playing her to be in love because he didn't trust her. He seemed most of the time around her unhappy, miserable or constipated. He actually seemed afraid at least a couple of times. (For example when he promptly shut Sansa in the war council after the Long Night battle...he wasn't really having a normal reaction, it seemed to me he stepped in to prevent Daenerys from getting even madder than she already was at Sansa.) He didn't share any meaningful pieces of information with her about his private life, he never even told her the name of his best friend's family, c' mon. She had to learn who Sam was from Ser Jorah. Can you believe it? This is the same character that was deeply shocked by Ygritte killing an old innocent man. Not to mention his distaste for fire's death...he killed Mance because he couldn't stand the thought of seeing a man being burnt alive, he couldn't stand being around Melisandre although she saved his life after he learned of Shireen. And I have to believe Jon had to be called out by Tyrion after he saw her burning an entire city? I'll never get over it.

So yes I agree with you that this ending for former lovers is actually more suitable for Cersei and Jaime to me, Jon loving her so much to be so blind was really kind of meh...in the end. My poor boy.

I have a feeling in the books, with the presence of Fake Aegon or Real Aegon, the things between the Targaryens will display very differently.


Well, your words actually are giving me a lot of happiness for Jon.

If Jon's ever going to end up being a king, I do not think there will be the iron throne involved so much. He's always wanted to be Stark and his childhood dreams were always about him and Winterfell. There might be the chance that he will possibly be asked for it, but I do not believe he will accept it. He will accept his Targaryen side, but I cannot see him embracing it so much to see him forsake all he's desired his whole life.


I'm reading lots of them and I am keeping my fingers crossed for the books.

She had some writing problems, and definitely, I agree that for being one of the characters that should have learnt from the real gamers the way she handled Daenerys was really too upfront. Honestly, I was expecting to see her being nice to Daenerys without much of a show and working behind her back with subtlety. There was no point in going straight to Daenerys face and telling her to GTFO, that was not really a smart move at all.
As for her bickering with Jon, I thought that she did it mostly to let Littlefinger believe he was still having the upper hand with her...but then she started to be a blunt critic of Daenerys in front of everybody...so yeah I have to say that she suffered as well of lack of cohesive writing, but with the general treatment of Jon I wouldn't even say she's one of the characters that suffered the most for it.

Raonaild

I've thought for a while that the "mechanics" of Jon's eventual resurrection would be different than Beric or Catelyn because he warged into Ghost while he was dying. I thought it was interesting that, even though they wrote the direwolves out of the show for most of the later seasons, they kept Ghost beside Jon while he was dead, until the point he came back to life. It seemed like that aspect was meant to be pretty important to Jon's return, but it didn't end up having any special meaning for the show. I think it must be significant in the books though. Maybe, like you say, we get POV from Jon while he's dead via Ghost - I don't think it's unprecedented, there was another minor POV character where that happened, IIRC.

I do hope the way Jon comes back is different in some way, because GRRM has talked about Beric being the fire equivalent of a wight. I hate to think of Jon that way, like he would come back less than human, to be some shadow of his former self. I worried about that between S5 and S6, but the worry went away quickly when he didn't seem to be any different. How Jon comes back in the books is definitely a big concern of mine though, and I have a feeling it won't be resolved quickly. Even in the show, it took a few episodes.

True, but since Jon has been a POV character from the beginning, I don't think he would just stop. I know they did with Catelyn, but she's not been a major character since the Red Wedding. Not getting Jon's POV anymore is not something that ever occurred to me until you mentioned it.

I take Jon's love of Dany at face value, because he doesn't seem like the character could intentionally fake something like that. Again in parallel with Ygritte, even though it was in his interest to get close to her to maintain his cover with the Wildlings, he tried to put her off and did genuinely love her by the end. I blame the writing for the lack of depth to the Jon/Dany relationship though ... it wasn't even consistent between S7+S8, in S7 he questioned her actions and gave his advice even when he was practically her prisoner, but yet in S8 he wouldn't voice any concerns, he just blindly agreed with her in everything.

I think it really depends on how the story plays out in the books, and it's hard to extrapolate from the TV series because they dropped various storylines and mangled others. But I could imagine a situation where Jon becomes King outside of the north out of a sense of duty, feeling that it's the right solution even if personally he would rather just hole up in Winterfell.

I think in the abstract Sansa and others in the north were right to be concerned about Daenerys, but the specifics of their concerns and the way they expressed them were stupid and petty. Like the idea that they shouldn't trust Dany because she's not family was not a good reason to distrust her, and taking shots at Dany and the armies that she brought because she didn't sufficiently prevision them didn't make Sansa look smart, it made her look shortsighted, considering the emergency situation the north was facing. Their concerns about Daenerys should have been more about the things that Tyrion listed in the finale, that Daenerys had demonstrated concerning behaviour before.

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That secret hand signal. This role really meant a lot to him and being scrutinized and put under the lens by so many people can definitely take a toll on an actor's life.

wickedrum

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There's stuntmen and then there's Kit.









KIT HARINGTON AS JON SNOW (2011-2019)

wanderer78

me and the sky

That is such a wonderful show of support! I am so glad his fans have chosen to support a great charity in his honour

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IloveJules!

I heard the news about Kit too. My best wishes to Kit too. I watched the documentary. He was very emotional about the ending of the show and about how the story of Jon ends. He was shocked Jon had to kill Dany. I understand him feeling the pressure because of all the exposition the show gave him and it's better to face your demons and fears than pretend everything is perfect and fine. Personally, I've loved the way Kit played Jon from the beginning til the end. For me, he was amazing and of course, I will love Jon and Ygritte forever. My Game of Thrones OTP.



I think it wasn't Cersei who did that. Cersei has only used wildfire to blow up the Sept of Baelor. She wasn't even sure there was wildfire stashed underneath King's Landing. It was a rumour and Qyburn decided to go deeper into it to confirm if it was true or not. It was true and she used it to blow up the Sept of Baelor. I believe she never wanted or intended to burn King's Landing at all, considering her reaction when she is watching the city being destroyed by Dany. She starts to cry.

It was Dany's father, the Mad King, who placed the caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. That's why they showed it when Dany was burning the city. To highlight the fact she is doing what her father wanted to do, but he didn't get to do it solely because Jaime stopped him from doing it.

Why it doesn't make sense for Jaime to go back to King's Landing to try to save/help his sister and woman he loves and who is pregnant with his child? To me, it makes perfect sense. But yeah, I thought it was weird he died without doing anything to try to save the city. I thought they would show he was the one who rang the bells, but... they never showed who did it.

I think the prophecy about Cersei doesn't necessarily mean she is supposed to be killed by her brothers only. It mentions the 'Valonqar' choking the life out of her, and 'Valonqar' actually means little brother. It could be any little brother. But if you think about it... Tyrion and Jaime were both responsible for her death. They both led her to her death. So Tyrion and Jaime are the little brothers of the prophecy.

There's also a prophecy/legend about the prince that was promised to end the darkness of the world. Azor Ahai. After what happened in the series finale, I believe Jon Snow is the prince the was promised.

Do you remember the song about Jenny of Oldstones that played on the second episode of this season? It's about the Azor Ahai prophecy/legend. Jenny had a witch friend who talked about the prophecy to the Targaryens.

And that's the Azor Ahai legend:

Basically the witch, friend of Jenny, told that a Targaryen would become the prince that was promised. One of the children of the Mad King or his grandchildren. So the prince that was promised is one of these four people: Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany or Jon. To me, it is Jon.

And how it happens on the show? Well, according to the legend, Azor Ahai tried three times to forge lightbringer. The first with water, the second with the heart of the lion and the third with the heart of the woman he loves.

I think the first attempt was when Arya killed the Night King. Night King is ice/water. Jon, the prince that was promised, was the one responsible to plan and organize the war against the Night King and he was the one who started Arya's path to become a warrior.
He gave her needle. Syrio, the swordfight teacher at King's Landing, even calls Arya a "sword". And with the help of Jon, Arya kills the Night King in a first attempt to end the darkness. They saved Westeros from catastrophe, but it didn't end the darkness completely because wars continued to happen in Westeros.

Then comes the second attempt to forge lightbringer with the heart of the lion. And I think it is Cersei. The lionness Lannister. Jon, the prince that was promised, refused to be on her side when she asked him to do it. He chose to stay on Dany's side. And with the help of Jon, Dany/Drogon defeat Cersei in a second attempt to end the darkness. It didn't. Dany broke bad.

So comes the third attempt to forge lightbringer with the heart of the woman Jon loves. And that's Dany. Nissa Nissa. Dany would start a new period of darkness and Jon stabs her in the heart. And by doing that he manages to forge lightbringer, which is Drogon. He destroys the iron throne, the current main source of darkness in Westeros and brings light and peace to Westeros. The episode even changes the tone after that. It switches to a light/spring tone.

That's why I believe that the Jon/Dany romance was supposed to end this way. I didn't expect it to happen and I didn't like how it happened, but it did happen this way with Jon killing Dany and I believe that's what was always supposed to happen between them because it is the prophecy being fullfilled. Jon is Azor Ahai. Dany is Nissa Nissa and Drogon is the Lightbringer.

Obviously it doesn't justify the lack of development with Dany and the whole 'tyrant' storyline. But it gives more meaning to her death, I guess.

It also explains why the Lord of the Light (R'hllor) ressurrected Jon and gives more importance to the fact that Jon is a Targaryen.

Most of the people won't even notice the Azor Ahai prophecy was fullfilled on the show. Most of the people don't even know about the prophecy. And I can be wrong, of course, but I think it was fullfilled. I think that's the intention and it explains why the things happened the way they happened during this season. The sequence of events. To fullfill this prophecy on the show. It all makes sense and connects all the dots. It was just poorly executed, especially the Dany part.

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Kit Harington wearing the jacket given to him by extra Andy McClay

Si_Crazy

^ Great gifset!

That's a very good analysis, IloveJules! I haven't read the books so I don't know much about the prophecies as the show didn't really go that deep into it.

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To be a fly in the wall of that set.

Raonaild

Sorry I don't have time to respond to all of your post, but regarding this part - it's actually canon that there were caches of wildfire all around the city, because that's the only thing that explains why there were green puffs of smoke all over the city as Dany and Drogon destroyed it. I'm not making that up, they actually showed that in the episode, which was weird because it was never mentioned in the episode otherwise.

And it would make sense that Cersei would do such a thing, she started wildfire production originally back in S2, which Tyrion ended up using at the Battle of Blackwater, and then she used it herself when she blew up the Sept of Baelor in S6. It would make sense that she would consider doing that again as some sort of last ditch defense, because it's not like she cared about anyone else in that city.

But instead in the ep, she did nothing, just stood there helpless. Which was out of character for her, considering up until that episode she always seemed to have another trick up her sleeve. And yet they kept the visuals of the exploding wildfire anyway, for no reason. Which makes me think that in some iteration of the script, she did try to use the wildfire, and then Jaime stopped her - which also would justify why Jaime needed to go back to King's Landing at all. But along the way, the script was changed.

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IloveJules!

I haven't read the books either. But the wiki of ice and fire really helps to get insight from the books, especially about things like the prophecies that are barely mentioned on the show.

Another thing that makes sense about Jon being the prince that was promised and Arya being the first attempt to forge lightbringer with water is the fact that Arya is a water dancer. Actually, Arya's story is also heavily related to water, not only death. She is a water dancer, she goes to Braavos crossing the narrow sea. There she lives by the water, basically. There is a fountain/pool at the House of the Black and White. She drinks water to get her vision back. She falls in the river/water after the Waif stabs her... basically being "reborn". And her story ends with Arya sailing into uncharted waters.



Yes, they showed the green puffs of wildfire while Dany/Drogon were destroying King's Landing and there were caches of wildfire all over the city. What I'm saying is that it wasn't Cersei who placed caches of wildfire all over the city. It's confirmed on the show that it was the Mad King who did it. Jaime told Brienne back in season 3. And Tyrion told Dany back in season 6.

Jaime to Brienne: You've heard of wildfire? The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancer place caches of wildfire all over the city-- beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself.

Tyrion to Dany: You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing when the Lannister armies were at his gates? Probably not. Well, he told my brother and Jaime told me. He had caches of wildfire hidden under the Red Keep, the Guildhalls, the Sept of Baelor, all the major thoroughfares.

The caches of wildfire were blown up accidentally because Dany was burning up the buildings. So when they show the wildfire exploding it is because the Mad King placed the caches of wildfire all over the city and now Dany is doing what her father wanted to do years ago. Which is to burn King's Landing. IMHO, that's what I think they're trying to highlight. That's the reason they showed the wildfire. To connect Dany with her father.

Cersei did ask that old pyromancer/alchemist to produce wildfire for the Blackwater battle. But it was only used for the battle. All the wildfire produced was used for the battle, if I remember correctly. I think there were no more stocks of wildfire after the battle. And I think you need to be a very special alchemist, a member of the alchemist's guild in order to produce and manipulate wildfire. Qyburn is a maester.

As I said, Cersei wasn't sure about caches of wildfire being hidden under King's Landing. For her, it was a rumour. I think because Jaime knew about it, so Cersei knew about it. But she wasn't sure. Qyburn investigated it and confirmed the rumour to her.

So the wildfire Cersei used to blow up the Sept of Baelor was already hidden in the tunnels underneath the Great Sept because, as mentioned above, the Mad King placed barrels of wildfire underneath the Sept of Baelor. Cersei just had to leak the barrels and ignite it with the candles. She didn't need to produce it.

I have no idea about changes in the scripts, but Lena was at a Comic Con in Germany this weekend and she did say she shot a scene where Cersei has a miscarriage back in season 7, but it never aired. So... obviously it makes you wonder about possible relevant changes in the scripts.
I don't think it would have changed anything from Jaime's pov, really. He would still go back to King's Landing to try to save his sister and the woman he loves with or without a baby. To me, Jaime going back to try to save Cersei is the thing that makes the most sense. Not only because the core of the character has always been doing things for love and family. But also as a knight. He died being a true knight. Protecting the queen and literally bleeding for her.

I think in this episode Cersei was being completely Cersei. Euron had just killed Rhaegal, so I think Cersei genuinely believed she would win the war because she was sure Euron would kill Drogon too. Her arrogance was her defeat.
Cersei, most of the times, has been one step ahead of everyone and now she's facing something she cannot defeat. I think that's why it felt weird to see her clueless and helpless. And Cersei doing things that backfire on her was basically a recurring theme on the show.

I wonder if wildfire would have been a good backup plan. I mean, how can you kill a dragon? A dragon is in the sky. Wildfire is on the ground. I think wildfire would have been pointless, from Cersei's pov. I think she did everything she could possibly do to kill the dragon. Cersei has done many horrible things and she definitely doesn't care about people, but I can't see Cersei blowing up the city that is her home and her reign and also killing innocents if it doesn't benefit her at all.

That all being said, after season 6, I always thought about the possibility of Cersei blowing up King's Landing (or the Red Keep, at least) and taking the throne with her, because I wanted her to have a glorious death and because of her story being strongly connected to wildfire. Also she did mention a few times she would burn cities/houses to the ground, if it was necessary, to protect her children. I also thought the Night King/Army of the Dead would go to King's Landing and turn the citizens into wights, so... Cersei would have no choice, but to burn the city.

I was shocked by the end of episode 4 when I realized Dany would be the one to do it instead of Cersei. But I truly believe that's the story they always wanted to tell. The story George wanted to tell. With Dany being the one who ends up doing what her father wanted to do. Dany also has said a few times that she would burn cities to the ground.

There's also Dany's visions/prophecies from the House of the Undying. I believe it was done the way it was done because the writer's already knew Dany's fate.

I don't read the books, but I know Dany's visions/prophecies from the House of the Undying are different in the books. And maybe they are also foreshadowing her fate, just like on the show. There is one that caught my attention the most...

"three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love... three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love... three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

I'd have to re-watch everything Dany to figure out if all of it actually happened on the show. But the treason for love, I think, it is Jon killing Dany. I think it is one more proof that the Dany and Jon love story was always supposed to end this way. Both in the show and the books.

Ramin Djawaldi also gave an interview where he says that the writers asked him a few years ago (probably 2016 when they're started doing season 7?) to compose the romantic theme for Jon and Dany for season 7, but it had to be a love theme that would "imply complications". Things would get complicated and things would go wrong, they said. I think it's maybe another hint that the writers knew Jon would kill Dany.