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Old 07-12-2018, 07:35 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop (View Post)
Wow, did Eliza really say that Clarke would depend on Abby?
She said something like Clarke's biggest supporters this season were going to be Bellamy and Abby.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:37 AM
  #242
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She said something like Clarke's biggest supporters this season were going to be Bellamy and Abby.
What on Earth? Clarke's biggest supporter is Madi, imo. I'm just gonna sit here and hope that Clarke and Abby make some meaningful connections in the last 4 episodes. I'd like to think that if anyone can help Abby out of her addiction, it's Clarke.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:48 AM
  #243
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(But I gotta say that it bugs me to read that one super long thing Alexa quoted and see this repeated claim that Bellamy poisoned Octavia to save Clarke. I've seen that idea a lot in the last few weeks and I think it's off. Yes, saving Clarke was certainly part of why he did it, but he's still primarily doing it all to stop the whole war. Their plan to murder Kara didn't work and Octavia was still about to release the worms on the valley, so he took the next most desperate measure he could short of killing Octavia. It's not all about Clarke.)
Yeah, I agree. I really think Bellamy is seeing the bigger picture this season (while Clarke is not).

Re: Niylah - she had already been shown earlier this season to be entirely Team Blodreina. She was willing to kill Madi when she realized Madi was a true Nightblood, so that there would be no chance Madi could challenge Octavia's rule. So it makes sense that she was still trying to keep Madi from taking the Flame, she just happened to be on the same side as Clarke this time. The "true believers have all the guns" was in reference to the ones gathering for the Ascension, in other words they were the ones wanting Madi to become Commander.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:50 AM
  #244
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I do think that we're going to see some major scenes in regards to Abby and Clarke going forward, but I totally agree that their mutual lack of dialogue regarding the other has been weird.

I don't think it was really intentional on the writers part, it just seems like it was something that was kind of forgotten in all the chaos.

Also in regards to some of you saying that the writing of character dynamics this season has been inconsistent, I have to agree. With the combination of the 6 year time jump and a few new writers, I think a lot of the dynamics of characters and their respective development kind of fell flat. It also doesn't help that no one is really talking about anything, so it's hard to really get into their heads at times.

This is why I usually hate time jumps in shows. I get the necessity in regards to "plot", but it's rare for them to be executed in a way that feels natural.

That being said, I'm very excited for the last 4 episodes! We're finally at the point after the drop in the rollercoaster (dangit Jason...that was actually kind of clever) so it's full speed ahead!
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:59 AM
  #245
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You don't have to agree but fans have a right to be angry with Bellamy if they want to.
Of course they do, Im not saying they don't. I just think they are being especially harsh on Bellamy for this one when I personally feel like he made the best decision for the entire group, not just a few specific people. Of course people are going to like and dislike everyones choices and have their reasons, but in this case, I've seen more people being harsh with Bellamy than with Clarke, so I just find it annoying.



Quote:
Nice post, Alexa. That poster makes some great points even if I still overall understand the motives of both Bellamy and Clarke.

I hope the last four episodes erase some of the puzzling, shocking, annoying stuff that went on in this last episode. I might be naive but I still have faith.
Thanks Michelle . We can chat more over on the Everwood board of course. I think its great you still have faith. I haven't completely given up on them yet. But I have major issues with the writing so for now, unfortunately I think I'm done with them...


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I skimmed it, because . . . paragraphs are needed.
You shouldn't. Because there are a lot of good points in there.

And the reason it was one big paragraph FYI is because it was a youtube comment and I just copy and pasted it. But honestly, its not that long???


I'm sorry but I'd still call Clarke selfish. Just because shes doing something for someone else doesnt make it not selfish.


No one is naive to think the last episodes wont shake everything up and turn things around. I just think, it doesn't matter what they do at this point, its gonna feel stupid. Ive been saying it all season too, not just now after this one. I cant stand the constant back and forth between the characters. You cant keep up with who is upset with who from week to week. I just wish there was more consistency with alliances and friendships etc.

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I think Bellamy's actions in this episode were a little problematic because you can argue that Madi is just too young to make this choice for herself, but on the other hand I think he did make an effort to clearly explain to her what the stakes are. Like I was feeling pretty squicky about it until Bellamy told her upfront that Clarke disapproved. That's about as reasonable as I think he could be in this situation. He's trying to save hundreds of lives here, so I'm not gonna be furious about it.
If I felt like Bellamy manipulated Madi into it, I'd be more angry with him, but I genuinely think he was doing it to not just help everyone but also Clarke herself. And he told Madi that she didnt approve, and she still made that decision. I know shes young, but like others said, she was the same age as Lexa. So, I think she's smart enough to understand what was at stake.

Madi is a fighter, she refused to bow down during the fight with Ethan. I think she will be great in this role.


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But I gotta say that it bugs me to read that one super long thing Alexa quoted and see this repeated claim that Bellamy poisoned Octavia to save Clarke. I've seen that idea a lot in the last few weeks and I think it's off. Yes, saving Clarke was certainly part of why he did it, but he's still primarily doing it all to stop the whole war. Their plan to murder Kara didn't work and Octavia was still about to release the worms on the valley, so he took the next most desperate measure he could short of killing Octavia. It's not all about Clarke.
People like to say that he did it only for Clarke, which is absolutely not true. I do think part of it was to help her, of course, because he only went through with it after Clarke had been arrested. But i think he would have done it for anyone he was close to too. And he was seeing how far Octavia was going. Not to mention she threatened to throw him in the pit too.

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I feel like there must have been an episode or something where Murphy bonded with Abby, but I can't remember what it was. Which says something, I think. Like it obviously doesn't take any effort to remember why Clarke and Abby are important to each other, but what happened with Murphy and Abby?
All I ever remember of their interaction was that one episode where he stole medicine for Luna's family, right? But like... there wasnt all that much Abby/Murphy interaction. And Murphy hasnt really been a character to care that much about others. I love him, but its true. I mean, he does care about the select few.... but I guess they are trying to show how much he's grown.

Maybe the Clarke/Abby bonding will happen in the last half. I am dead curious to find out what the hell she could possibly have to say to her.

I dont put a lot of stock into what Eliza says, tbh.

Quote:
It also doesn't help that no one is really talking about anything, so it's hard to really get into their heads at times.
I cant stand the lack of communication Sarah. Like, if we finish the season and characters haven't spoken about certain things then... I just dont know. Im gonna be even more frustrated. Its all action and we need actual conversations and scenes! There have been a few, but rare.

I just hope the bad decision making is over. Isn't the next episode the dark year one, or is it 11? Is that one going to be purely the bunker like 502?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:10 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Taryn74 (View Post)
Yeah, I agree. I really think Bellamy is seeing the bigger picture this season (while Clarke is not).

Re: Niylah - she had already been shown earlier this season to be entirely Team Blodreina. She was willing to kill Madi when she realized Madi was a true Nightblood, so that there would be no chance Madi could challenge Octavia's rule. So it makes sense that she was still trying to keep Madi from taking the Flame, she just happened to be on the same side as Clarke this time. The "true believers have all the guns" was in reference to the ones gathering for the Ascension, in other words they were the ones wanting Madi to become Commander.
Ah, if that "true believers" line was about the ones wanting to restore the old Commander system it makes more sense. But I thought she was referring to Octavia's followers because Miller and his soldiers had the guns... Guess I have to watch again! And maybe I'm just hoping Niylah isn't totally Team Blodreina because I don't want her to be. It's disconcerting how some of the "good guys" like Niylah and Miller have changed in the past six years.

I agree that Bellamy is seeing the bigger picture this season more so than Clarke. This is a role reversal for them, which is interesting I guess, but it bugs me how Clarke's new perspective is pinned on her becoming a "mama bear." As a mother myself, I understand how one's kids become the highest priority, but being a parent doesn't have to mean that becomes the ONLY priority. Nor does it make a person abandon any other values or principles (I didn't start murdering people left and right after my daughter was born!).

Indra's a mom, and she cares deeply about Gaia, but she cares about other things too, doesn't abandon her values or her awareness of the bigger picture to just protect her daughter. And man is she amazing this season!
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:23 AM
  #247
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I just was FURIOUS with her at the end when she was spitting all that crap about Madi abandoning them. Like, SEETHING. i've never been so angry with a character on this show. Not even Pike. Like, its that bad. In fact, I cant remember when I've been so angry with a character on tv period.

Marie is doing an amazing job and I love Marie, but its the way she growls everything out, like she has such distain for everyone. It makes my skin crawl.
I mean, I feel like it's a shtick by her though. Maybe she is angry with Clarke/Madi at this point (she did order their deaths after all) but she had to say something there. Otherwise, the people would wonder why they ran. Pike was still the worst though, IMO.

Marie is amazing but yeah, I'm not a fan of that growling tone (especially paired with the thick makeup) ... but if it's supposed to be ominous and telling of the physical and mental change in Octavia, I guess that does the trick.

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I agree that Bellamy is seeing the bigger picture this season more so than Clarke. This is a role reversal for them, which is interesting I guess, but it bugs me how Clarke's new perspective is pinned on her becoming a "mama bear." As a mother myself, I understand how one's kids become the highest priority, but being a parent doesn't have to mean that becomes the ONLY priority. Nor does it make a person abandon any other values or principles (I didn't start murdering people left and right after my daughter was born!).

Indra's a mom, and she cares deeply about Gaia, but she cares about other things too, doesn't abandon her values or her awareness of the bigger picture to just protect her daughter. And man is she amazing this season!
Quite true, I mean I can understand it to some extent but to just completely ignore everyone else and focus on that one person's safety and happiness at the expense of your own values/principles, it seems like a tad too extreme. I really don't like her trigger-happy ways this season, even if I connected more to Clarke this season (compared to the last two).

Good point about Indra and her as a mother ... Indra has been simply amazing this season. I used to dislike her a LOT in season 2 but I've grown to love her over the course of the seasons. Of course, it can be argued that Clarke only had Madi whereas Gaia was never truly that close to Indra (it seems) and Indra has other priorities both on the Ground and in the bunker, apart from her role as a mother.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:25 AM
  #248
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Ah, if that "true believers" line was about the ones wanting to restore the old Commander system it makes more sense. But I thought she was referring to Octavia's followers because Miller and his soldiers had the guns... Guess I have to watch again! And maybe I'm just hoping Niylah isn't totally Team Blodreina because I don't want her to be. It's disconcerting how some of the "good guys" like Niylah and Miller have changed in the past six years.

I agree that Bellamy is seeing the bigger picture this season more so than Clarke. This is a role reversal for them, which is interesting I guess, but it bugs me how Clarke's new perspective is pinned on her becoming a "mama bear." As a mother myself, I understand how one's kids become the highest priority, but being a parent doesn't have to mean that becomes the ONLY priority. Nor does it make a person abandon any other values or principles (I didn't start murdering people left and right after my daughter was born!).

Indra's a mom, and she cares deeply about Gaia, but she cares about other things too, doesn't abandon her values or her awareness of the bigger picture to just protect her daughter. And man is she amazing this season!
Thank you for saying that, especially paragraph 2.

I just hate that Clarke's entire personality this season is just about her being a mom now.

Quote:
I mean, I feel like it's a shtick by her though. Maybe she is angry with Clarke/Madi at this point (she did order their deaths after all) but she had to say something there. Otherwise, the people would wonder why they ran.
I get why she did it. She couldn't come off looking weak or they would completely abandon her as leader, but I just... I'm just so angry. I cant have her be the focus next season or I will lose it. In fact, I might not even watch next season and just binge all the episodes at the end of the season or something.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:40 AM
  #249
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I cant stand the lack of communication Sarah. Like, if we finish the season and characters haven't spoken about certain things then... I just dont know. Im gonna be even more frustrated. Its all action and we need actual conversations and scenes! There have been a few, but rare.

I just hope the bad decision making is over. Isn't the next episode the dark year one, or is it 11? Is that one going to be purely the bunker like 502?
I think the Dark Year is 11 and I don't think it's going to be 100% flashbacks.

The lack of communication is starting to turn everything into idiot plots. Like why didn't Kane talk to Spacekru about what he was doing with Diyoza? Is there some reason why he wouldn't have wanted to speak with Echo and Raven for all that time they were sitting in that room with shock collars on? Diyoza said that other defectors were helping Kane prepare their whole town square thing in that field of flowers, didn't she? So if Kane has access to the defectors, then he could have just met up with Raven and Echo and told them about what was happening. Maybe they could have worked together. Isn't that what Kane wanted? Instead he leaves them in the dark and they screwed everything up in their ignorance.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:45 AM
  #250
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I get why she did it. She couldn't come off looking weak or they would completely abandon her as leader, but I just... I'm just so angry. I cant have her be the focus next season or I will lose it. In fact, I might not even watch next season and just binge all the episodes at the end of the season or something.
I'm just not seeing why she would make you this angry, Alexa ... she's not my favourite person right now but honestly, she made me more angry when she lulled Bellamy into a false sense of security and then threatened Bellamy in episode 5, not this. If anything, I've softened my stance in her in the last few episodes somehow. I can't even explain why. She's probably feeling very betrayed right now, first Bellamy and Indra and now Madi. (though Madi really doesn't have any allegiance to her ... she did take her on as her second, when she made plans for the war)
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:48 AM
  #251
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I’m gonna have to respond to stuff later. Gotta go!
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:58 AM
  #252
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Thanks for the answer Fuzzy.

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Like why didn't Kane talk to Spacekru about what he was doing with Diyoza? Is there some reason why he wouldn't have wanted to speak with Echo and Raven for all that time they were sitting in that room with shock collars on? Diyoza said that other defectors were helping Kane prepare their whole town square thing in that field of flowers, didn't she? So if Kane has access to the defectors, then he could have just met up with Raven and Echo and told them about what was happening. Maybe they could have worked together. Isn't that what Kane wanted? Instead he leaves them in the dark and they screwed everything up in their ignorance.
It feels like a lot of potential scenes/moments are skipped over. Instead of taking their time with the plot and doing what makes logical sense for the characters they just skip things and then expect us to understand what is going on. The fact that anyone can literally go in and talk to Clarke chained up doesn't even make sense.

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I'm just not seeing why she would make you this angry, Alexa ... she's not my favourite person right now but honestly, she made me more angry when she lulled Bellamy into a false sense of security and then threatened Bellamy in episode 5, not this. If anything, I've softened my stance in her in the last few episodes somehow. I can't even explain why. She's probably feeling very betrayed right now, first Bellamy and Indra and now Madi. (though Madi really doesn't have any allegiance to her ... she did take her on as her second, when she made plans for the war)
You don't understand why I am mad at this girl for throwing her brother in a pit with her best friend aka mother figure Indra to fight to the death? Like, REALLY? There is absolutely no excuse of that. I dont care if it was in her rulebook for underground to have fights. The whole purpose of the pit fighting I thought was to reduce the population. It doesnt make sense to me why they are continuing that tradition now that they are above ground. She cant punish Bellamy and Indra a different way? She's forcing them kill one another? Its completely savage.

Of course shes feeling betrayed but shes been betrayed before. They all have. They are forcing each other to kill each other. Octavia is essentially murdering them. But I guess I expect this after she killed Pike at the end of season 2, Im surprised it actually took her this long to turn this dark.

And again its not even necessarily what Octavia does (though I cant stand any decision shes made this season) its all about her demeanor and how she carries herself. People can be villains and make dumb decisions but either they started out as a villain so its no love lost for me, OR they made decisions that I could sort of understand from their POV. But with Octavia, I just dont.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:09 AM
  #253
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I just wanted to add a quick thought it regards to Clarke's motherhood plot line this season.

To be clear, I think both Bellamy and Clarke went about things the wrong way in 5x09, so this isn't a defensive post.

I feel like part of the reason why Clarke is falling flat for some people this season is because we're used to her being front and center when it comes to conflict. She's been the leader, the one to shoulder the burden, the one to make the tough decisions (not always the right ones of course), so to see her be on the sidelines isn't natural, and I don't think it's supposed to be.

As for her actions regarding Madi last episode, I don't really see it as just being because of her "mama bear" role. For the past 6 years, this little girl has been all she's had. She's had no family, no friends, no actual other adults to communicate with. Just Madi. So it makes perfect sense to me that she's is almost obsessive in her protection of her.

Is it healthy, logical or even right? Of course not! But add her isolation over the past 6 years to the isolation she's felt since everyone returned to the ground/surface, and it made it easier for me to understand her motivations.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:20 AM
  #254
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You don't understand why I am mad at this girl for throwing her brother in a pit with her best friend aka mother figure Indra to fight to the death? Like, REALLY? There is absolutely no excuse of that. I dont care if it was in her rulebook for underground to have fights. The whole purpose of the pit fighting I thought was to reduce the population. It doesnt make sense to me why they are continuing that tradition now that they are above ground. She cant punish Bellamy and Indra a different way? She's forcing them kill one another? Its completely savage.
No need for sarcasm, Alexa. I was genuinely asking a question. That's the thing, Wonkru culture cancels out everything else, including whatever rules she's willing to bend for her brother. And they still apply, now that they're out of the bunker. And both him and Indra did betray her so that is the be-all-and-end all right now. Doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with this action but I can understand her rationale for it.

Quote:
Is it healthy, logical or even right? Of course not! But add her isolation over the past 6 years to the isolation she's felt since everyone returned to the ground/surface, and it made it easier for me to understand her motivations.
Agreed, Tara. I feel like the circumstances need to be taken into account too. I do think that her behaviour errs a bit on the extreme right now but also, I understand it because of Madi being the most important person to her right now and the fact that she doesn't feel like she belongs with any of the other groups and hence focuses all her energy on protecting Madi right now.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:22 AM
  #255
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Thanks Michelle . We can chat more over on the Everwood board of course. I think its great you still have faith. I haven't completely given up on them yet. But I have major issues with the writing so for now, unfortunately I think I'm done with them...
I hear you. The writing is really bizarre right now during key moments and it hasn't just been this past episode. Some lines/scenes are just weird overall these past few episodes.

Sounds good. See you there or already seeing you there.
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