Fuzzy Dunlop

She could still tell them next week. Maybe they just dragged her out of the room before she could tell them. Or maybe Raven is just a more noble person than Shaw is. It doesn't really benefit Raven to tell them the truth.

That's exactly what she was disagreeing with, though. I said to her that she had to be able to admit at the very least that there was the appearance that Shaw double-crossed them and she literally said, "that's just not how I saw it." She also said, "I still don't think that anything he did after that alludes to the fact that he was deceiving Raven/Murphy about the plan." She doesn't even think anything alluded to him double-crossing them. You'd have to delete that entire scene from the show to come to that conclusion. I'm on the same page you're on here. I think the debate should be on whether or not Raven was acting. But I'm not going to sit here and be told that scene wasn't presented on its face as a double-cross. As far as we know at this point, that's exactly what it was. We would need another plot twist to happen in order to think that it's part of the plan.

My question about Raven though is how could it have been incorporated into her plan? Murphy pretty evidently wasn't prepared for it. What were they going to do? Ambush Diyoza people when they followed them? There are only seven of them and 300+ of Diyoza's people. I don't see what advantage that would give them.

April7739

Oh good lord. You’re not even arguing anything anymore, Fuzzy. Here it is: http://www.fanforum.com/94015329-post231.html

The poster you are referring to did in fact admit that the show made it appear that way, as has everyone here. (Yes, our eyes were on the screen, too, just like yours.) She goes on to say, as others here have also said, that she doesn’t think he actually did double cross them. If you want to speculate that he did double cross them, then what’s wrong with others speculating that he didn’t? Nobody’s saying the scene wasn’t presented as a double cross. We’re just saying that we think that’s not really what it was. And again, who cares? Clearly there are different interpretations. One side is right and the other is wrong. We’ll find out more soon enough. Until then . . .

Let it go. PLEASE. This is exhausting going around and around in circles like this, and personally, there are other aspects of the episode I’d like to discuss in here.

BrooklynFan

I don't know--but then I'm not as brilliant as Raven My first thought was Murphy could lead Diyoza's people into a trap, but if so it seems like he would have told his friends about it in the rover. Second thought is that the whole point was to get Shaw back into the good graces of Diyoza and her crew because he needs their trust in order to complete the next part of the plan, whatever that is. Appearing to double-cross Raven solidifies his loyalty in their eyes.

It could also be that what we saw is what we get: the entirety of the plan was to release Murphy ostensibly in exchange for Raven unlocking the missiles, and Shaw then sprung the tracking thing as a surprise. I'm hoping not, because Raven seemed pretty psyched about her plan, so I'd like there to be more to it!

ETA: But I think it's time to let this aspect of the episode go!

Fuzzy Dunlop

Stop telling me what to do. PLEASE.

She was saying the scene wasn't presented as a double-cross. She said there was nothing he did that alluded to him deceiving them. And she "admitted" that it appeared that way only to immediately back track and say that's not how she saw it. Maybe this whole time she has been trying to say that she hopes it will turn out to be a misdirection, and I have no problem with that. But if that's the case she hasn't been wording it very well. Like when she said maybe there will be a plot twist in the future that will show that he double-crossed them? As if the double-cross scene hadn't already happened?

Fuzzy Dunlop

I think if it were part of his plan to get back into Diyoza's good graces, then I think they would have warned Murphy that he was going to be tracked. They want to keep him and the others alive.

I was hoping for a more complicated plan too, but I tried to think my way through the different possibilities and it seems like that really was all there was to it. And I guess that's fine because the alternative plan Shaw gave them was that he would pretend Raven gave him the codes and then just go ahead and blow up everyone without any warning.

April7739

Oh, I’m done. Sarah, I fully understand what you are saying, and I think you worded it just fine.

Fuzzy Dunlop

If you want to discuss other aspects of the episode, then have at it. You don't have to come in and pretend to be a mod and shut me up.

April7739

Another great episode! This season has really just been consistently great. The episodes are fast-paced, but somehow we’re finding time for these very important and poignant character moments, too, which, let’s face it, are the heart and soul of the show. I think if I had to rank the episodes so far, I’d rank them as follows:

5x03
5x04
5x05
5x01
5x02

The only thing I could have done without in this episode is the whole worm thing. Unless it serves a bigger purpose down the line, it felt not super necessary to me. This type of drama is less compelling to me than the drama between the characters and the opposing groups.

And I just wanted to point out that this episode was written by someone who was new to the writing team this year, so hopefully that can make some fans feel a little less uneasy about having so many new writers next year. See, new writers can write in a way that fits in well with what comes before it.

Okay, so let’s dive in to the characters! I am going to post my Octavia thoughts separately, as I have a lot of thoughts about her, particularly a lot about her and Bellamy’s dynamic. And allow me to state right here and right now that I am NOT enjoying Octavia right now, and my thoughts and reactions will reflect that.


Clarke: Episode MVP, girl! I’m actually really glad that Abby was taken by Eligius, because then we get to see Clarke being in medical mode. Not only that, but we got to see her be an absolute boss at the beginning when she was like, “I know the terrain. I’ve made the trip dozens of times. You need me.” I found it absolutely shocking that they would even consider taking off without consulting her first. But this is how Wonkru is, I suppose. Clarke is not their leader. And I don’t really want her to be, but goodness, there’s nothing wrong with listening to the advice of the one person who’s actually been living above ground for the past 6 years.

Season 5 Clarke is shaping up to be my favorite version of Clarke. I’m really loving her energy, and I feel like I’m having an easy time seeing a lot of the scenes from her point of view (which hasn’t always been the case). It was interesting that she would note the more impressive aspects of Wonkru, and she’s not wrong. I think Clarke can allow herself to be impressed by them more easily than Bellamy can because she doesn’t have a little sister in charge to be horrified by.

I think Clarke has been a lot smarter with her approach to Wonkru than she was with her approach to Eligius. She seems to be doing a lot of observing with them, a lot of listening, just getting a feel for that group.

Oh, I also loved her reunion with Madi. That was super sweet. Eliza’s smile there was just perfection.


Bellamy: I’m going to save some of the more Octavia-related stuff with him for the separate post. But Bellamy . . . oh, my Bellamy. What did he do to deserve this treatment from the person he’s devoted his entire life to? I don’t understand.

I think I posted this in the Bellamy thread or somewhere on Bob’s board, but I have to say, this new, more mature, more rational version of Bellamy is really working for me so far. That can’t be an easy evolution to portray, but I think Bob has done it really well. This still feels like Bellamy, because we can still see that he loves people with all his heart. But rather than being so impulsive (much like Octavia was when she decided to march into that sandstorm), he’s thinking things through more. Bellamy’s always been smart but has never really gotten the credit for his intelligence that he deserves, I feel, and it’s nice to see him be able to use that. He’s relying more on both logic and common sense, but at the same time, we see in the scene where Octavia has the worm in her arm, for instance, that he’s still an incredibly passionate person who cares about his loved ones with all his heart.

I’ll just get this Becho kiss out of the way while I’m here . . . Don’t read this if you’re into Becho, because it’s not super flattering to them. Oh my goodness, they didn’t even really show the kiss. It was blurred out, and half the frame was given to Clarke to show her reaction! That was exactly what I wanted, to be honest. I don’t want Bellamy to be a bad boyfriend, so I’m fine with him going to her like that, even though I’m still not really feeling any huge sense of chemistry or passion here. Anyway, it’s pretty clear to me that that moment isn’t even about them. It was about showing Clarke and Octavia’s reactions to them. Which is why that kiss wasn’t even in focus.


Echo: Let me just mention her briefly while I’m thinking about her, too. I’m still NOT an Echo fan at all, but the fact that I’m actually disliking Octavia so far this season more than I’m disliking Echo really says something. Echo’s in deep ****, though. For all my issues with Octavia, I will not be able to fault her for hating Echo. She has every reason to.

I did like that Echo gave credit to Clarke for saving their lives. That was good. I don’t get the sense that she and Bellamy have talked about Clarke a lot (I don’t get the sense that Bellamy talked about Clarke much with anyone), but I think that, deep down, Echo probably knows how much Clarke means to Bellamy. Because EVERYBODY KNOWS. Anyway, Echo really hasn’t done much this season, so she’s kind of just been there. If the writers think that attaching her to a fan favorite character is going to be enough to get people to like her, though, they’re wrong. They’re gonna have to give her a storyline of her own and attempt to redeem her outside of this relationship with Bellamy. I don’t know if she’ll ever get off my least favorites list, but . . . I don’t know. The best she can probably ever hope to get in my eyes is Finndifferent.


BELLARKE: Ah, my favorite thing to talk about. Okay, so after two huge, epic scenes in the prior episodes, I wasn’t really expecting anything at all in this episode. Yet, we ended up with these really subtle but important scenes between the two of them that I really enjoyed. A lot. And I thought it was a nice contrast to the previous episodes.

The campfire scene was, I thought, incredibly beautiful in the way it was shot. We can see Bellamy behind Clarke, barely able to take his eyes off of her. She talks about being impressed with Wonkru, and he’s just feeling impressed by her. Bellamy was such a fangirl of Clarke’s here, and I loved it. It is impressive surviving on your own like she did. And when she said she wasn’t on her own . . . right away when I watched it, I thought she was debating whether or not to tell him about the radio calls. Then I considered the fact that I may have had shipper goggles on. But then I rewatched it, and I was like, “Nope. No goggles.” She definitely hesitated, and it struck me as her wanting to say something more but backing out before she could.

Then there was that scene in the tent, where they actually vocalize the whole “head and the heart” thing, except they phrase it less poetically as “the heart and the head,” which honestly leads me to believe the writer lurked here, saw our thread, and just didn’t want our egos to get too big. Kidding. Or am I?

But in all seriousness, I love that moment, too, because with those five words, you can just see that they immediately go right back to where they were six years ago, having that conversation, and you can see how important it was to both of them. Bellamy internalized that and kept it with him, and Clarke recognized that. So Clarke got to be Bellamy’s fangirl there. And you know what? He deserves it. Bellamy is constantly **** on, and he probably felt pretty crappy about Octavia. But Clarke is always there to lift him up when Octavia puts him down. (This is also a good point to mention that I absolutely loved how shocked and appalled Clarke looked to hear Octavia say what she said to Bellamy at the end, and the way they filmed that shot was really cool.)

And then . . . oh, and then. That look from Clarke at the end. I loved that so much. When I imagined her finding out about him and Echo, I imagined a moment just like this: subtle but important. I know some people have said it was a jealous look, but I don’t think so. Clarke has never struck me as the jealous type, and it wasn’t like Bellamy was ever her boyfriend or anything. But . . . Bellamy has always been her person, and as we’ve been discussing in the Bellarke thread, she’s never really had to share him with anyone besides Octavia (but it’s a different situation with Octavia). To me, her look was much more of a confused, uncertain one. And yeah, perhaps a little hurt. Definitely disappointed. It seemed to me that they were spending this episode re-learning each other, getting reacquainted with who the other one is now, and Clarke was feeling pretty glad that she had her guy back. It was starting to feel pretty natural to her again. And now this. I think she’s going to be in full on conceal-don’t-feel mode, and she might not even understand how she’s feeling about it herself.

But the directors are directing us into a story. The editors are editing a story for us. If there was no story to tell between Clarke and Bellamy, then why show her reaction? It’s very deliberate and obvious to me, which is why I’m no longer shying away from putting all my Bellarke thoughts right into these episode thoughts anymore.

Oh, also, I loved their numerous WTF looks they gave each other throughout this episode. Same, Bellarke, same.


Gonna speed this up now.


Raven and Shaw: Why must Raven always be tortured? Maybe because Lindsey is so good at acting tortured? Her screams just pierce you, seriously. I’m glad Shaw has a moral compass and a conscience and wasn’t okay with what was going on there. He’s in a precarious position. He doesn’t want to be a part of this, but he is a part of it whether he likes it or not. Obviously there has already been a lot of discussion about whether or not he actually betrayed her, and I’ve already articulated why I don’t believe he did. I never got that sense from the scene or the character, so if I’m wrong, then I’ll be fine with admitting that I’m wrong. But I believe everything that happened in this episode was all part of the plan.

It’s pretty obvious they’re setting up a ship here, and I’m down for it, although I’m still feeling like Murven trash, too.


Murphy and Emori: Oh my gosh, first of all, his interaction with Madi was the best. I love that Madi has met Creepy Uncle Murphy now. I also love how concerned he and Raven were that the other was okay. But now Murphy is once again separated from everyone else. Although Emori clearly still cares about him, because she stayed behind. I’ll admit, having become such Murven trash, I’m slightly less enthused about Memori as a ship than I was before. But I still like their dynamic, always have, and I won’t be disappointed if they get back together. At the very least, they need to reconcile at least on a friends level, because it’s clear they still care about each other. I’m glad Emori stayed behind with him. Now I’m getting that early season 3 Bonnie and Clyde feel from them again.


Madi: Her line about the bear cave and the bears being gone was really funny! I’m sometimes hesitant about shows adding kids into the mix, but obviously this isn’t a normal show and Madi isn’t a normal kid, so it’s working really well. Octavia being her favorite, though . . . oh, girl, I hope she doesn’t remain your favorite. Just have Bellamy or Murphy be your favorite.


Monty? Harper? Question marks because they’ve barely been given anything to do. But Harper is still my beautiful babe, and Monty’s little wave to Octavia at the end is literally one of the only things giving me hope that the Octavia I enjoy is still in there.


Abby: I didn’t know that Paige herself pushed for this storyline because it’s such a national crisis. Good for her. I know some people aren’t feeling this storyline as much, but as someone who has a family member who has been struggling with addiction for decades now, I’m really proud of the show for tackling this and (hopefully) doing it justice. Obviously this show has some really gigantic plots sometimes, and this is a smaller one, but it’s so universal and important and relatable for so many people, much like Jasper’s PTSD was. And Paige’s acting when she was shaking . . . wow, so good. Of course Diyoza gave her the pills back, though. She needs a doctor who can function. I’m really worried for Abby.


Kane: I continue to love Kane this season. I can’t believe we got to see him have his first shot of tequila! Awesome! I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with Kane being willing to talk to Diyoza and possibly divulge some information to her. Octavia and Wonkru may call him a traitor (hell, Diyoza may call him a traitor), but . . . does he really have any reason to be loyal to a group that was about to kill him? Kane has always been trying to make peace and use words to fight battles rather than weapons. So let’s see if he can accomplish that with Diyoza.


Diyoza: I’m starting to enjoy this character a lot more. I’m not one of those people like I see in the episode reviews where they’re like, “Wow, she’s the greatest villain the show’s ever had, maybe the greatest new character they’ve ever introduced!” It’s too early for me to say something like that yet. But she’s been given layers so far, and the actress (Ivana, I believe) playing her has done a really good job with the material. What I can appreciate about her is that, unlike Octavia, she seems to be rational. She actually listens to people. She’s willing to listen to Kane. That’s an intriguing trait in an antagonist.

It looks like she’ll be offering defectors a place with her group. And a question I asked after the episode was, at what point does joining Eligius become the better option than staying with Wonkru? I could see some people being willing to defect. Kane, obviously. Abby. Indra is less likely because she’s so damn loyal, but you never know. Same with Miller and Jackson.


McCreary and Vinson: McCreary still hasn’t given me much to say, but I think the actor is good, and I think he’ll try to overthrow Diyoza at some point. That Vinson guy was creepy as hell. I’m not super interested in what’s going on with him and the others yet. As I always say, I just care more about our established characters.


Indra: Never did I think I would see the day where I can say . . . I am LOVING Indra! You guys know I’ve been critical of her. I’ve never been a fan and have never really understood why so many people like her. But this season, she’s really grown on me. She’s one of the few people who isn’t brainwashed, it seems. She’s loyal to Octavia (probably loyal to a fault, because now the poor woman has shards of glass in her lungs), but she’s not blindly loyal. She’s obviously not happy with the path Octavia has gone down, and I absolutely LOVED that she called out that “love is weakness” bull****. Her telling Octavia she loved her was really touching.

Also, I’m glad we got the confirmation of what we were all thinking: that Gaia has been instrumental in developing this cult-like mentality of Wonkru. Indra throwing that shade at Gaia was EVERYTHING I have ever wanted! Yasss, Indra, yasss! I can’t stand your daughter, and now it seems like you can’t, either!


Kara: But now onto someone I can't stand, and someone who does seem to be blindly loyal to Octavia. I don't like her at all. I have nothing nice to say. All I want to point out is that she talked about those rations A LOT, and I'm not giving up on the cannibalism theory. I swear, if they fed Clarke and Bellamy people, that is disgusting. At least let them know what they're eating! But as others have pointed out, the whole "All of me for all of us" slogan . . . perhaps it's not as "beautiful" as Clarke thought it was. And Kara seemed surprised that they were leaving the bodies. Why? It could have something to do with burying them, but I think it's a lot more likely that they're used to using the bodies as food.


Mackson: Just briefly wanted to mention, yay for another cute kiss! And I’m really proud of Miller for saying, “I think we should hear what Clarke has to say.” But it was really startling to see him just ignore Clarke like that at first. Startling and weird, just like it was weird to see Bellamy and Clarke fall into the line rather than be at the head of it.


And that’s all I can do right now. I’ll be back later to post the Octavia and Blake siblings thoughts.

BlueDog9

reading that huge post now April!

sonny1

Okay, then I will not read this

April7739

I put that in there for you, Sonja.

sonny1

That's nice of you April

April7739

The final portion of my thoughts, also quite lengthy. If you don't want to hear some critical discussion of Octavia and of her relationship with Bellamy, then don't read.



Octavia and Octavia/Bellamy: Where do I begin?

Okay, let me start out by acknowledging some good things. First of all, Octavia’s storyline, though divisive, has at the very least been thought-provoking. I don’t really see anyone feeling Finndifferent about her, which is good.

Second of all, Marie is killing the material. I think we can all agree on that.

Third, I can definitely admit that Octavia had the roughest road after season 4. Clarke had it rough in the beginning, and I’m sure not everything was easy for Bellamy up in space, either. But Octavia had more people depending on her than either one of them has ever had, and she had less leadership experience under her belt than they did. She was thrust into a role she wasn’t prepared for and probably nobody would have been prepared for. She’s a young girl who ended up with more power than she knew what to do with.

Fourth . . . two thirds of the people in that bunker are still alive, a year and seven days after the time they were supposed to be out of there. They are a devoted and loyal unit, so Clarke’s word of “impressive” is . . . one word for it. In some respects, I can see the argument that it’s impressive. In some respects.

Last of all . . . I have not given up hope completely on this character. Let’s not forget that, at the start of the season, I had her at #6 on my favorites list. I had her up as high as #5 at points during season 4. This is not a character I “hate on.” In fact, there have been moments, small moments and few and far in between, where we get glimpses of the Octavia we used to know. Her momentary happiness upon seeing Bellamy descend into that bunker last week, her reaction to hearing Indra say she loved her, her thanking Clarke for saving her, and that little wave to Monty . . . thank God for that little wave to Monty. My heart actually breaks for Octavia there, for some reason. The Octavia we knew is not gone; however, she is deeply buried.

Okay. So there’s me acknowledging what I perceive as the good things. Now, onto my feelings of frustration and anger towards her, neither of which is surprising, given the nature of this storyline, and neither of which I feel the need to censor because, quite frankly, I’m not hating on the character. I feel negatively towards her right now and have every right and reason to feel that way.

So last week I wrote a lot about how upset I was with the fact that Octavia nearly killed Kane. I won’t rehash all of that this week, though it’s worth noting that it still bothers me. This week, most of my anger towards her is stemming from how she’s treating Bellamy. Of course I was not happy with the way she blamed him last week at the end of the episode, but this week is even worse.

It was noted on this thread that perhaps part of the reason why people are so upset with Octavia right now is not just that she said something cruel to someone, but that she said something cruel to Bellamy. Yes, Bellamy is a fan favorite character, someone a very large portion of the fan base rallies behind and gets very passionate about. That’s no secret. And yes, he’s my favorite character; that’s no secret, either. When someone like Octavia lashes out at him in what I perceive to be an unfair way, I automatically get angrier than I would if somebody were to lash out at a character I care less about. That’s normal and natural. But let’s also remember that Bellamy is her brother. So regardless of whether someone is a hardcore Bellamy stan or not, the argument can be made that the things she has said to him are very, very hurtful and wrong because it is simply not okay to say something like that to family.

First of all, continuing to blame him for starting this war with Eligius . . . excuse me? Huh? That literally makes no sense. (But then again, Octavia isn’t thinking rationally or making a whole lot of sense right now.) Is Octavia so brainwashed by her own cult of personality that she can’t take ownership of her role in provoking this conflict? Bellamy was literally doing everything he could to prevent the conflict. He was the only person who made any progress with Diyoza and Eligius whatsoever. Without him, they’d still be in that bunker fighting (and probably eating) each other. Which leads me to believe Octavia may not have even wanted to leave that bunker. She’s become so dark, I almost think perhaps she was happier just wallowing in that dark place.

There is no question in my mind that Bellamy does not deserve ANY of the blame for a war starting between the two groups. And even though I’m a big fan of his, I’ve never shied away from admitting when he should shoulder the blame for something. But not this. This is not his fault, and I feel horrible for him having to hear his sister say over and over again that it is. But even so, being the best big brother in the world, where is he when Octavia has that worm burrowing in her arm? He’s right there with her, assuring her it’s going to be okay, holding her, not leaving her side.

And then, of course, there is the ending. Apparently we can’t have nice things, because we get this sweet moment that is immediately and completely destroyed when she basically threatens him. If it was supposed to come across as a warning to him, it didn’t. It came across as a threat, and that is just NOT OKAY. I don’t care what the circumstances in the bunker turned Octavia into. She’s gonna have to own her **** to make up for that one with me. I felt so bad for Bellamy, how he was basically lulled into this sense of a happy moment with the sister he’s thought about reuniting with for six years. And then she pulled the rug out from underneath him.

The question arose last week of whether or not this was a toxic relationship between the Blakes, and I hesitated to call it a toxic relationship then. I said that, while I believe there are elements of a toxic relationship there, I was not going to label it as that. Yet. But I’m not hesitating anymore. Yes, I’m calling it a toxic relationship. And it’s not because of Bellamy.

Signs of a Toxic Relationship
Just linking this article if anyone cares to look through this and see how many of these things could apply to Octavia and Bellamy.

I’m gonna throw out a hypothetical here: Let’s say the situation were reversed and Bellamy was the one blaming his sister for starting a war, Bellamy was the one saying she would be his enemy if she ever spoke out against his group, Bellamy was the one who said, “Why do you think you’re still alive?” in 4x06, and Bellamy was the one who physically beat her in 3x10. Would anyone even hesitate to call that a toxic relationship? Now, I know the situation is not reversed, but I’m asking people to consider that because I honestly do sometimes feel like there is a huge gender double standard at play here: Octavia gets away with doing and saying more to Bellamy than he would ever get away with doing or saying to her. If the situation were reversed, I feel like people would be absolutely appalled (rightfully so) by Bellamy behaving this way towards her, in part because he is the older brother, in part because it would be OOC as ****, and yes, in part because he is a man.

It’s so sad, honestly. I’ve said for a long time that the relationship between Bellamy and Octavia is my second favorite relationship on the show, but as it currently stands . . . no. Not this iteration of it. The problem is, I don’t trust Octavia when it comes to Bellamy anymore. I don’t trust her to love him the way he deserves to be loved by his sister. Bellamy is far from perfect, but he’s been a damn good big brother to this girl. He has devoted his life to her since he was 6 years old. And this is the thanks he gets?

So how does Octavia come back from this? Or does she come back at all? I doubt she’ll ever go back up to #6 on my favorites list. I don’t know if she’ll even crack the top ten again. That’s how much I’m struggling with her right now. And I’m not struggling because I can’t analyze or empathize with her character. Trust me, I’ve put a lot of thought and analysis into this post alone. I’m struggling because I believe her treatment of her brother is morally and fundamentally wrong.

I really hope the writers hold her accountable for this. I really do. The Bloodreina concept is compelling storytelling (as I said, I don’t see anyone feeling Finndifferent about it), and it is an arc that makes sense for her, but I don’t want them to take the easy way out and say, “That was the Bloodreina side of Octavia doing that. That wasn’t really her.” No, it’s all Octavia. Just like Wanheda is a part of Clarke. I really struggled with Clarke early on in season 3, but I do believe the show has done a good job of having Clarke internalize the Wanheda part of her identity and accept and own up to it as a part of herself rather than pretending she was a whole different person at that time. I hope that they will do that with Octavia. But Bloodreina is on a whole different level than what Wanheda was. We're in a territory of extremes with Octavia.

Interesting to note, too, is that Bellamy doesn’t have a special title like these two do. He doesn’t get to be Wanheda or Bloodreina. Everything that he does, he does as Bellamy Blake. As I was thinking about this, I actually came to realize how much I appreciate this about his character. Because I think not having any mythologized persona to rely on has forced Bellamy to be really hard on himself and really critical of his past mistakes, and because of that, he’s learned a lot, and his evolution and developed maturity feels very earned to me.

So here we are. Octavia is basically a dictator, deciding who gets to live and dies, claiming land that technically doesn’t belong to her as her own, and marching a group into a sandstorm and then proceeding to have to have them shield her from that sandstorm, her mentor getting shards of glass in her lungs in the process. Does she feel bad about any of it? Or has she turned her humanity off to the point where she can’t even feel bad? I’m not sure. Will she ever turn that humanity back on? Will it be too late? Will any of this be able to justify what she’s done? I’m really not sure. An entire cult has been built up around this girl, and she’s drunk her own Kool-Aid, it seems. It’s so similar to our current-day North Korea, honestly, that it’s just eerie. A leader with a god-like persona who everyone claims to respect, but really . . . do they allow her to continue leading because they truly respect her? Or because they fear her? I suspect more people are afraid than they’re letting on, and that we will see some defectors in the future.

I’m holding onto hope for this character with the edge of my fingernails. But something is going to have to change in order for me to not give up on her completely. Something has to change with her as an individual, and that change has to provoke some changes in how she treats her brother, because I can’t keep supporting a character who is so cruel to the one person who loves her more than anyone else in the world does.

Well. That’s about it. I’m sure there’s more I wanted to say and just forgot to. I know these are some pretty passionate opinions, but I stand by them.

Damocles

Hmmm if this is the case does this make him more interesting? I really want him to be a totally good guy But there's for sure alot more to him than we know about

I think this is what I was having trouble with - was him feeling guilty about Raven enough to make him help them? That's why I at first assumed that he had betrayed them. Raven never voiced her plan on-screen, which doesn't help. And still, I'm not sure of what this great plan would have been other than Murphy escaping to warn the others, and Raven taking the blame for the missiles being stopped. His butt is saved again, and presumably the others don't get bombed. Ok. So with him pointing out that Murphy had a tracker, something doesn't quite add up to me. Why would that be part of a plan? It makes no sense.

And at the end of the day, he still shot the missile. I mean at that point he had no choice, but he didn't look THAT distraught about it, did he? I don't know. I want to believe he's good 100% good! But, look what show we're watching.


We definitely need to find out more about him - he can't be all that good if he's on a ship full of prisoners. Colour me intrigued! To be honest, him constantly stopping Diyoza and McCreary from hurting people was getting old quickly (we get it, you're a good guy) so having a potential sneaky side to him is more fun.


A good point I guess a) if this were Raven's plan, she wouldn't say that b) if it weren't her plan, she would have had to yammer that out quite quickly and the dialogue would get clunky. Those are my only two guesses


re: Diyoza, I think she's a well-written character so far and I think she's elevated by Ivana the actress. There's something about the way she delivers her lines and the facial expressions she makes that seriously makes Diyoza even more interesting to watch. A seriously good character.


re: Bellamy and Clarke getting different rations - the only reason I would get behind this is because they specifically showed Indra mentioning to them that there were two packs for them by the door. What a random line? But then again, who would bother to pack special rations for them before they even knew they were going somewhere?

April, I'll read your posts in a bit


Side note: can we please chill out on this thread a bit - you can disagree with eachother, just do it respectfully. If people want to continue to talk about things, let them. If you don't like what they are saying, move on. If you don't like what they are saying and want to respectfully send a rebuttal, go for it. If someone is consistently annoying you, then mute them! The purpose of this thread is to discuss things, so please don't censor eachother. That said, if you think you are right and everyone else is wrong, keep it to yourself. That goes for everyone.

Bless you all and may you have a better night than the spider I just vacuumed It was a really big one

Alexa

Thanks Lisa. I dont understand why anyone bothers to discuss anything with someone they dont agree with. I just ignore them completely lol. Its much more peaceful, trust. And if you do decide to post a response to that person than you should expect to be unhappy when they say something you dont agree with.



We dont know anything about shaw yet though. He seems like a good guy but i wouldn't be surprised if he wasnt. I think people expect too much from him too soon. I personally still dont think hes making it past the season.

to ME, when I watched the episode this is what I saw
-Shaw willingly letting them torture Raven
-Murphy being brought in and Shaw finally steps in to help
-Admits his part in the missiles. He didnt seem overly excited to work with them (do we remember he was willing to kill both of them last episode?) But he knows he has no other choice.
-Raven comes up with another plan that he goes along with.
-Murphy into the woods, etc, when his collar goes off, me as a viewer goes "oh crap, the plan is failing"
-Then we see Raven in space with the others, and to me it seemed like Shaw DID double cross them and that the plan was off. He set murphy out there so the others could track them, which is why Raven got so mad. To me, it felt like she felt genuinely betrayed.

I am not saying that he 100% did double cross them, thats just what i saw when i watched. Its very possible that he didnt and its all part of the plan and we will find out next week. But its also possible he did double cross them.