CanIcallYouKate

So a thought came to me earlier today. This is going to be one long incoherent ramble and i apologize in advance (feel free to TLDR me LOL)

I started to feel that the theme in season 5 might be "what truly defines a person?".

What I mean is, we have spent years with these characters and by now thought we have a pretty good idea of who they are, right? Like the traits that truly define their character.

We have seen versions of them defined by their environment (what we have been shown). We have seen glimpses of who they were on the Ark, but really we have only watched them act and interact on the ground. And regardless what season prior to this one I look at, the day to day affairs were pretty much disaster, betrayal, death, impossible choices, heartbreak and then some more death. And while there was free will for the most part for our delinquents, I'd still say that the majority of their decisions were dictated by their situation.

But what I mean is, that is always true, and we are starting to get to know the people they are now, shaped by 6 years in a completely different environment.

If I look at spacekru, I see Monty, coming to terms with "what earth made him" and struggling to reconcile that with who he thinks he is if the situation doesn't force him to be anything other. And I get his reluctance to go back to earth. He probably has a hard time accepting that shooting his own mother or enabling Clarke and Bellamy to kill 300 people including children and his best friend's girlfirend in Mt Weather is who he really is.

I look at Echo and I'm wondering how much choice Echo had in her life. Was she chosen to be a spy for queen Nia? Was she top in her class and the "CIA" recruited her? Did they pick her when she was a kid? It is only hinted at that she was trained to be a spy, we know not much else. Is that what she would have done with her life if given a real choice, if she had grown up in a peaceful society, not Azgeda? We saw glimpses of her struggling with actions like killing Octavia. We see her now making a different choice (not killing defectors). Would an Echo who had not been shaped by the life she had put an arrow through Ilian's throat?

I look at Emori, who seems to have thrived, learned impressive skills and has found a place in a family by choice, something she was not given the opportunity to do in her "previous life". Do I think the new Emori is the better Emori? You bet. Do I think this is the true Emori, just because I found her previous actions reprehensible?

I look at Murphy, who arguably has changed in less obvious ways, who seems to have resisted change. I want to think that deep down, he always could have done better (except on the one-liners), but who is Murphy really? The guy who thrives in chaos, who excels at surviving by being extremely clever when it comes to playing other people? Is the real Murphy the guy who wants to be a hero? Who craves acceptance and trust and recognition? I think so but I am horribly biased here.

And then you look at all of the bunker cult and they are in for a world of self doubt and hurt, should this go the way I think it will, with wonkru eventually evolving or dissolving altogether. Whether they actually ate people or not, it's pretty clear that something horrible happened (other than fights to the death instead of football on Sundays).

Did we think Niylah, with all her kindness and integrity and quiet intelligence would turn out to be capable of being a threat to Clarke (or a child)? Did we ever really think that no matter how dark Octavia seems, she would threaten her brother? In a way that at least for me gave me pause, because I wondered for a second if she actually might (I really don't think she'd harm him but I was scared).

Anyway, I have no answer to the question of who the REAL Monty is, or anyone for that matter. Are they all those light bits and dark bits at the same time and always? Can / should we judge them on the dark bits or excuse them because of circumstances? Is there even such a thing as the "real" you?

Is it that basically we have all those possibilities within us and what comes to the surface is simply defined by the environment we're in? What a thought. I think often of Lincoln's words to Clarke " we all have a monster inside us and we are responsible for what it does when we let it out" (might not be 100% accurate). Are the characters struggling with "what they had become on earth" or "what they might have been if given the chance" because of upbringing and what set of values was instilled in them when they were young? There is literally no one not struggling, which makes sense to me when I watch with the set of values I have. They all did things we deem "wrong" and "reprehensible".

I feel like the more I go on, the less sense I make
I am so sorry, I feel like I don't even know if there was point to all of this but now I already wasted 20 min and so I might as well post it

Also this bumps the thread, which is good because maybe someone has a plot hole they want to discuss. I am so here for that

Damocles

Kate this sounds very smart but I'm so tired I have to read it in the morning
(I promise)

destroyer of worlds

Vey interesting post, Kate ... I have to mull over it a bit and come back to you too, Kate.

Taryn74

I think this pretty much sums it up. It's a sobering thought indeed. Kind of like a quote from the movie Batman Begins - "it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you."

Your post reminds me, I was always fascinated at the differences between Lincoln and Ilian. Both were Grounders since birth. Their clans didn't seem to be all that different, from what we saw. Both chose peace whenever possible but also both would fight if necessary.

Yet I always got the impression that their "default settings" were different - Lincoln seemed a warrior at heart who chose (and sometimes struggled) not to fight unless he had to. Ilian seemed just the opposite - he was a pacifist at heart who would not shy away from a fight if it was necessary.

CanIcallYouKate

Sarah, Lisa
Don't feel like you have to, it's not that profound after all (in the harsh light of day, I just re-read it myself )

Taryn, I love that you mention this (not that I've seen the movies).

Since writing the word vomit above I have read the review posted in the episode thread last night, which made a big point of talking about judging based on actions or intent.
Which in a way fits in nicely with what you've mentioned as well.

I think the review focused on judging Echo based on "who she is" (intent, as done by Bellamy) or actions (as done by Octavia).

I mean even in societal rules and law, we judge differently based on what intent is. Let's say Trump fired Comey based on his perceived bad job performance (legal) or based on "I want this investigation into potential collusion to stop" (= obstruction of justice). Or even simpler: killing someone in self-defense vs killing someone to steal their stuff. Judged very differently.

I love this
Maybe default setting is what I mean with "the true person", the core character.

For example, Clarke has a big sense of morality, right and wrong, and a huge protective streak. She might have stood up for perceived injustices when it came to classmates or sth like that back on the Ark. She did struggle against what she thought was her premature execution (not fair, because the rule was, when I am 18).

So then all her actions that caused 100s of deaths are just a logical conclusion to that, right?

She goes 6 years in peace but the day other folk shows up whom she perceives as a threat to Madi's safety, she kills 4 dudes right off the bat.

girl under the floor

TLDR Kate.



just kidding, reading now

CanIcallYouKate

Paula

ETA: um, Clarke didn't kill all 4, Madi shot one, I think

girl under the floor

I like this train of thoughts
I will read along with y'all's discussion, nothing to add at the moment

destroyer of worlds

Okay, my quick two cents on it ... I think that it's an interesting point on how much a person is truly moulded by their circumstances/environment and how much is truly their default setting (love that word BTW, Taryn). I agree that a lot of what they had to do before the time jump was largely out of their hands because they were in impossible situations where there was no good solution sometimes. And of course, they were under immense pressure ... especially those in a leadership position. However, that is not to excuse them of those actions entirely because some people defy those roles/decisions expected of them because they still weigh their actions with what is morally wrong/right (and despite what those decisions cost them eventually). But of course that also doesn't relate to every single situation that they're in, I feel like it's hard to say which is ultimately influenced by nature vs. nurture. Maybe it's really an equal portion of both.

It also reminds me of analysis of serial killers, as morbid as that sounds. I'm quite fascinated by the discussions I've read so far about how much they are influenced by their circumstances/childhood/traumas (typically early on in life) vs. how much of that is due to their nature, whether there is an inherent "evil" in them that could not be erased no matter what. And some of them came from happy families whereas others were from troubled backgrounds so the question is how much of their eventual behaviour is shaped by their background or whether they'd ultimately go down that deep, dark road no matter what.

That seems apt to me. They were both pacifists but to varying degrees ... and also tried to protect people they cared about in different ways. Ilian by fighting in the conclave and Lincoln by surrendering to Pike and ironically, that led to their respective demise too.

a little chaos

How would everyone tier the characters? (Doesn’t have to include all the characters, just several for each tier)

Mine:

GOD TIER

Clarke Griffin
Bellamy Blake
Commander Lexa

TOP TIER

John Murphy
Echo
King Roan


HIGH TIER

Raven Reyes
Charmaine Diyoza
Indra
Anya
Aden
Madi

MIDDLE TIER

Marcus Kane
Monty Green
Emori
Harper
Niylah

LOW TIER

Octavia Blake
Gaia
McCreary

BOTTOM TIER

Ontari
Emerson
Miller
Pike
Queen Nia

kiss the wind

GOD TIER

Raven

TOP TIER

Bellamy
Clarke


HIGH TIER

Kane
Lexa
Diyoza
Murphy
Lincoln

MIDDLE TIER

Monty
Jasper
Roan
Octavia s1-4
Indra
Emori
Wells

LOW TIER

Harper
Niylah
Miller
Finn
Jaha

BOTTOM TIER

Ontari
Pike
Abby
s5 Octavia

Yes, I know you said several for each tier, but... Raven Reyes >>>>>>>>>>>

But, to be fair, if I did this properly: Raven/Clarke/Bell (God Tier), Lincoln/Lexa (Top Tier), and everyone else stays the same.

destroyer of worlds

Interesting, Becks. Let me mull over this ... my top tier is now shaky to be honest.

April7739

Okay, interesting. I'll do this.


GOD TIER

BELLAMY BLAKE
John Murphy
Clarke Griffin


TOP TIER

Raven Reyes
Marcus Kane
Jasper Jordan


HIGH TIER

Harper McIntyre
King Roan
Indra (thanks to this season)
Emori
Lincoln
Madi


MIDDLE TIER

Nathan Miller (because of this season)
Monty Green
Octavia Blake (combining all the different seasons together)
Ilian
Sinclair
Diyoza (serious potential to move into high tier)
Shaw
Maya


LOW TIER

Abby Griffin
Paxton McCreary
Lexa (sorry, Becks and Amelia)
Jaha
Pike
Luna
Niylah (because of this season)
Finndifferent Collins


BOTTOM TIER

ONTARI
GAIA
ECHO
Carl Emerson
Diana Sydney
ALIE
Montain Men

Steph26

Whyyyy did this make me laugh so hard?!

https://a-timely-interruption.tumblr...es-in-a-single

Damocles

lol, and the one with Jordan right underneath! loooool