Fuzzy Dunlop

I think there's a point in discussing it since Clarke's leadership was a plot point in this episode (and everybody being angry with her has been a recurring plot for the last 3 episodes.)

There's disagreeing with somebody's point of view... and there's telling them that their posts don't have a point and arguing with them about not liking the writing. Where's the fun in that, hmmm? I'm entitled to my opinions and if you don't agree, I'm sorry. But I'm not obligated to only post things that you think are "fun."

CanIcallYouKate

I clearly started my post with "to me", because like everything I write, that is my opinion. Just like you, I am entitled to it. And you don't have to be sorry that I do not agree with you. Freedom of speech means everyone can say what they want, but not that it will stand out in the world unchallenged. That goes for you and for me, of course.

And since you were addressing my posts on this subject, I replied to you. Is that not how this works?

Yes, but that's not what you did, now is it. For several posts in a row, you argued that it makes no sense that she is the leader and that the writing is terrible.

a few examples:

So again, maybe I was being unclear before. I have no issues with your opinion that you do not like Clarke being a leader on this show. I disagree, but that's ok, we can all have different views. I was just trying to express that - for me - there isn't much point lamenting things presented as fact on a show. We may differ on interpretation according to our personal preferences and biases, but disagreeing with the reality that she is, in fact, the protagonist and leader (atm), makes no sense to me.

April7739

I think both Bellamy and Clarke staying there together would have been the most logical scenario, but you know, the show doesn’t let us have nice things like that. And he’s not allowed to see her in a dress.

Taryn74

Good points, especially that last one. I freely admit I'm getting tired of the 'Clarke saved us all.....again" but it's very true that she's willing to step up when others won't. And as irritated as I am with Bellamy right now (over his treatment of Octavia) it's SO TRUE that it works best when he and Clarke are making the decisions together.

BlueDog9

wickedrum

I think so too. I think Octavia will end up saving them all in the end.

Taryn74

My random speculations, completely unspoiled -

(Caveat, not all of these ideas are mine originally. I tend to see stuff posted in different places and think, yes! That makes the most sense! And then just run with it.)

Sanctum, i.e. the Primes, are definitely NOT the good guys here. There was a poster above who said they are Capitalists and I'm really struggling to understand that viewpoint. Sanctum is clearly a dictatorship, with the ruling class (the Primes) having complete control over the population and having them live as glorified slaves.

Not sure yet if those who get to "ascend" to a Prime (like Delilah was on the verge of doing) already have nightblood or if acquiring it is part of their "naming day" ceremony. Delilah's mother didn't come across like she was part of the ruling class. But then again, we've been shown in the past that nightblood doesn't necessarily pass from parent to child, so we'll see how it works here. I'm fascinated by the fact that the Elegius III families (weren't they the predecessors here?) have a version of the nightblood that came before the one we've seen up until now, since Becca was still perfecting it after ALIE nuked the world and Elegius III was sent off planet before that even happened. So Commander Madi (and okay, Clarke too) may very well be superior to even the Primes in some way.

I totally think that becoming a Prime means that you actually take on the consciousness of the original Primes (like the Lightbournes shown in the photos and flashbacks, and the other families they've referred to) just in a new body. All hints we've gotten point to this. Killing them in the 'Children of Gabriel' manner is the only way to keep them from passing on the consciousness. (Everyone keeps saying the CoG beheaded the bodies while Diyoza, Madi, and Gaia were paralyzed - I thought they were cutting out their hearts. It was deliberately out of focus but the thing the one guy was holding up looked too small to be a head IMO. But I'm probably wrong. ) Also, Clarke is totally going to be the new Josephina.

Speaking of Josephina, I believe her last "host" was the one who died six years ago that Russell referred to as his daughter, and he is the "host" of the original Lightbourne father who went cray cray during the first Red Sun episode.

What else? I hope Delilah doesn't end up being a real baddie as I liked her, but her playing Jordan for information which she immediately passed on doesn't look good.

I really hope Octavia ends up saving the day (with the CoG and Diyoza's help) and Bellamy finally sees past the monster he thinks she's become.

Also I hope Abby goes into cryo sleep and never comes back. I don't care why. Come up with something. (Why oh why can't Paige Turco be the one who has another full time gig and has to be written off?!)

destroyer of worlds

I enjoyed this episode more than I thought I would, though episode 2 was still my favourite one so far. So many questions though.

I'm worried for Diyoza being outcasted but knowing her, she'll find a way to scrap through and survive. Her face when she heard about her name in the history books though, priceless.

The "old man" that the Children of Gabriel are referring to is Gabriel (presumably being hosted in another body as well)? And Gabriel was the geneticist from the first mission so perhaps, at some point, he and his family were outcasted by the Primes and that's why COG hate the Sanctum peeps so much. Hmm.

I'm of two minds about Bellamy leaving Octavia on Sanctum. He wants to protect the others which I get, but it still hurts my Blakes heart that he did that. But then again, she did throw him into a fighting pit, knowing full well that he would probably die ... whereas he probably thinks that she has a decent fighting chance to survive (given her skills) on Sanctum whilst hoping that she will finally come to her senses, for lack of a better word. I do think that she will thrive with the COG people, they seem like people that she would gel better with anyway.

Word to all of this, couldn't say it better myself. Do I think that Clarke is the best leader ever? Of course not, and neither should she be. It's not like she was raised/nurtured with the specific purpose of having to lead a group of (volatile) people someday. Also, she was an adult when she started leading but for all intents and purposes, still didn't have the right life skills to really know how to lead best. And snide comments/snickers don't make a good leader, the others can talk the talk but reality is a whole other ballgame. (I feel like Octavia maybe can see Clarke's POV a bit better now, given that her own leadership has led her to be put through the ringer) The others pick on Clarke's leadership skills but do they step up in her place? Nope. And when crap hits the fan, they look to her time and time again. I don't blame her for putting herself and Madi first last season, Spacekru sure didn't seem to care much about her (apart from Bellamy) and was putting themselves first so why shouldn't she as well? After all, she had already saved them once (and no time can ever erase that deed).

I think that Bellamy can lead but how good of a leader he can be, remains to be seen because he simply hasn't been tested (what key decisions would they have to make in space, anyway?). Also, in this specific episode, he observed that Russell had taken a liking to Clarke and knew that it was key to leverage on that to help them stay. It made sense, in that context.

Having said that, I do agree that it feels slightly forced at times and that is partly because of the fact that she is the protagonist and has to be the focal point in key storylines, so that's one way of achieving that.

Huh, interesting. So I'm guessing that everytime a host dies, they have to find a new Nightblood as a host but Rose's mum referred to Russell's "daughter's turn", so presumably the Primes have to wait in line for the new hosts.

I like them too but yeah, not a great start. I reckon that she kind of had to though, because it was her naming ceremony the very next day. Maybe Russell and co threatened to not hold the ceremony until she got some information out of Jordan.

CanIcallYouKate

Taryn, I loved reading that.

I've seen some speculation on tumblr along those lines

I think Becca making the black blood stuff to withstand radiation might have been in parallel or before the AI stuff. She probably modified it to make herself "compatible" with the AI later. But the show has been sufficiently vague on all that to make it plausible that she developed some sort of radiation protection elixier (black blood) in combination with the chip.

So if the Sanctumites have a "chip" to transfer prime consciousness, it might be a "prototype" thing Becca came up with? And she fiddled with it still later for transplanting the AI in her (and future commanders).

Or these peeps did something with it on their own? They had 200 (? how long? I forgot) years and a lot of specialized brain power on that original mission. I mean no offense to Abby or Jackson trying to retro-engineer the black blood but Becca was smarter/ had way more specialized education than those two combined.

Exciting stuff

I do think Clarke becoming the host for Josephina/ Russell's daughter is a plausible theory

BrooklynFan

Your little parenthetical aside here just made me really happy! I've been bummed that our gang didn't stick up for Diyoza and just accepted her being kicked outside the dome. But I hadn't thought about how this gives her a chance to hook up (non-sexually!) with Octavia! I suspect those two former adversaries will, in fine The100 tradition, end up making great allies, and will be really fun to watch together. And I'd be very glad for them to be the ones to save the day somehow, ideally without utterly destroying Sanctum and its human inhabitants in the process.

BlueDog9

This makes sense but would also make Gabriel quite the hypocrite.

This Octavia/Diyoza theory sounds great to me. It would give them both (though Octavia moreso than Diyoza) a true chance for redemption.

adam23089

I don't get it aren't the primes just a theory? and you're right sorry my mistake, Russel is a dicatator just like Bellamy and Clarke nooeone else has got a say execpt them, isen't that what dictatorship is

April7739

I shouldn’t even bother responding to this, but . . . Octavia wasn’t a dictator as Blodreina? Come on. Never mind the fact that Bellamy actually had a line last season where he said, “Murphy, I wanna know what you think.” Yeah, that’s so dictatorial.

Taryn, I see that you’re upset with Bellamy, and while I do think that we can debate the ethics of him leaving her there . . . I don’t think he sees her as a monster right now. I think he does rightly recognize, though, that she’s the darkest version of herself and would be a volatile, impulsive variable in their effort to achieve peace now. And she behaved horribly to him. She blamed him for starting a war at the end of 5x04, continued blaming him in 5x05, spoke to him threateningly/menacingly at the end of 5x05, put him in a fighting pit to potentially die (or have to kill Indra in order to live), burned down the hydrofarm that one of his people advocated, and continued blaming him even in 5x12. Now I’m not saying that I don’t understand her mindset for all of this, because I do (the writing was solid). But what’s so bad about him standing up for himself and putting up barriers between them and making her earn forgiveness rather than just granting it to her? He had to earn forgiveness from her (for much less, IMO). I don’t understand this whole mindset that Bellamy needs to forgive Octavia. He will, I’m sure, but he has to do it at his own pace. Also, I think Octavia needs the tough love. Going into Sanctum would have been disastrous for her, and like many others have speculated, being with the Children of Gabriel will probably lead to her finding out some info that saves them.

adam23089

They both are

a little chaos

Yeah dictator is probably the last word I’d use to describe Bellamy, the boy is too soft for his own good sometimes, his space family is basically a bunch of misfits, some of which have tried to kill him countless times, yet he forgave them again and again, that doesn’t seem like the actions of a dictator to me.