The 100 - The Children of Gabriel [6X03] Episode Discussion 05-14-19 - Page 8

CanIcallYouKate · 05-16-2019, 10:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop (View Post)

This is over the top. I don't feel like it's worthwhile to go back and forth with you over how I should be posting. Honestly, I don't care if you don't like my posts. If you don't think there's a point to anything I'm saying, just block me or whatever and move on because this is a waste of time.

I don't believe in muting people I do not agree with. And if you consider debating this a waste of time, then I wonder why you seem to have trouble letting things go week after week, season after season. I don't know what exactly you considered "over the top" in my last post since you didn't respond to anything in a substantive way. I never told you "how you should be posting", and I never said there "was no point to anything you're saying". But you seem hurt, which was never my intention, so I'll stop replying to you.

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I would be ok with a Clarke/Josephine plot line

Brooklyn, you're right, if that theory is what is actually going to happen, it puts JR's hints/ comments about Eliza's acting this season in context.

For me, it would bring something fresh to a character we've now known for 5 seasons. Depending on how much of Clarke would be "in there", we'd get to see some pretty interesting mental struggle for Clarke. And if she were to be completely "taken over", the show would get to play with the old "do the others realize what is going on with her/ that it's not really her" theme. I for one am excited about that possibility

I think the writers have done a great job with some relationships on the show. I'm thinking Abby/ Kane, Octavia/ Lincoln, Harper/ Monty, Emori/ Murphy. To me, they all had meaningful build-up and realistic dynamics (for Marper, I grant you, the hints were subtle but there from season 2). But there are others that were not as convincing to me

a little chaos · 05-17-2019, 12:17 AM

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Originally Posted by April7739 (View Post)

I think we’ve all definitely enjoyed some more than others.

Speak for yourself

Fuzzy Dunlop · 05-17-2019, 01:49 AM

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Originally Posted by CanIcallYouKate (View Post)

I don't believe in muting people I do not agree with. And if you consider debating this a waste of time, then I wonder why you seem to have trouble letting things go week after week, season after season. I don't know what exactly you considered "over the top" in my last post since you didn't respond to anything in a substantive way. I never told you "how you should be posting", and I never said there "was no point to anything you're saying". But you seem hurt, which was never my intention, so I'll stop replying to you.

This is ridiculous. If you have such a problem with me, please just block me.

April7739 · 05-17-2019, 04:47 AM

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Originally Posted by a little chaos (View Post)

Speak for yourself

And then there you are just shipping everyone.

girl under the floor · 05-17-2019, 05:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Taryn74 (View Post)

Well, just speaking for myself I've never argued that Bellamy needs to forgive Octavia at all. It's hard to present my viewpoint so it probably has come across that way, so I'm sorry for being unclear.

I guess I just want Bellamy to acknowledge - or hell, even try to find out - that there was more to the whole Blodreina thing than the dark desire to kill a bunch of people in some kind of weird quest for power. But I never saw that. I just saw him coming down to earth and first mocking her (he literally said the Red Queen was some kind of joke) and then assuming the worst and washing his hands of her. That's what I'm upset at him over.

This dude.
Are we supposed to assume by now that someone filled Bellamy (and the rest) in on all that happened in the bunker?

I have a major headache cause I had a minor incident this week, so I haven't been able read up a lot and join the discussion.
But if we're gonna list all the things Octavia did (to Bellamy), can we then also list all the stuff Bellamy did to Octavia throughout the entire show?

I LOVE Bellamy. Octavia is my favorite, Bellamy has always, solidly been my #2.
And I never thought it would or could happen, but I was so mad at him. Out of all the stuff that he has done throughout the seasons, this is what got me the most.

And that is NOT because he's refusing to unconditionally forgive Octavia. Because I wouldn't expect that.
It's because not for ONE second, have we seen him to try and place himself in her position. He came down with Spacekru, freed her from the bunker and immediately started judging her. Immediately decided that she was plain wrong in the entire cult situation.
TV shows are about "show - don't tell".
Show me that Bellamy knows everything. Show me that he at least tries to understand Octavia's pov. Instead, he's been verbally beating her down ever since he came back. And still continues to do so. Well, continued, he already left her behind now

Also - obviously it matters which character you love most - but I think it's debatable that Octavia did worse to Bellamy than Bellamy ever did to Octavia, especially on an emotional level.

Show me that Abby takes responsibility for her part as well, instead of openly blaming Octavia all the time.
Show me that Clarke knows all of this. Let someone bring it back up again.
Give me the dang good talk where everyone vents

They should've done that before they left Space

I think it's ridiculous that the only person at the moment who's at least trying to be forgiving of Octavia is Echo. The one who has basically no relation to her, no personal emotional investment in this.

Well, y'all have moved on, but since I wrote this all up, I'm still gonna press submit now

adam23089 · 05-17-2019, 05:24 AM

If you really think Russel is a good guy. then why'd he say Dioysa is like hitler and BIN LADEN, BIN LADEN that's the most evil man besides Hitler he can think off, what about bush?

April7739 · 05-17-2019, 05:34 AM

Octavia put Bellamy in a fighting pit where he would either die or have to kill her mentor Indra to survive. I cannot think of anything that Bellamy has done that is comparable to that. Sure, he left her behind here, for the good of the rest of the group (and probably for her own good, too, because she might not last long in Sanctum in her current state).

And if we’re going to argue that Bellamy is “verbally beating her down,” then let’s think back to the horrific things she’s said to him in the past. We can trace that back to 3x10, follow a trail of it through season 4, and then especially see it in season 5.

And Paula, while I understand and agree with what you’re saying about how Bellamy should still try to understand what Octavia’s been through, (whether that results in forgiveness or not), I want to pose the question again that I put in a previous post: When was a good time for this to happen? I feel like an ass quote tweeting myself, but here it is:

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Originally Posted by April7739 (View Post)

Fair enough, Taryn, you make a point that he hasn't made a huge effort to understand what she went through. I guess I still just empathize with him a lot more because what she's done to him is just far worse, IMO. It would have been good for him to really talk to her about it, but . . . at what point could that have happened last season? (Everything was so freakin' rushed.) Their conversation in 5x04 wasn't long enough for that, and at the end of that episode, she was blaming him for starting a war, and then she was lashing out at him for the entirety of 5x05. So she pushed him away pretty far pretty fast, and now I think she's dealing with the natural consequences from that. And I think this is how she'll learn. If he just forgave her really quickly, she wouldn't learn.

Now one could most definitely say that this is a writing problem, as scenes have been rushed along for the sake of advancing the plot, and the result of that is that we’re missing out on longer character and relationship moments.

But I want to make it clear that I am not at all displeased with how they’ve handled Octavia this season thus far. I like this tough love that she’s getting. I like that they haven’t been rushing her redemption so far. I may not like her so much right now, but I continue to like the way they’re developing this storyline. And the fact that it’s a storyline that allows Bellamy to continue standing up for himself and establish boundaries with her is even better to me. Because I feel like we’re getting good things for both characters involved, because both characters are getting something they need from this.

Also, I’d like to pose this question: If we’re going to say that characters are not trying hard enough to understand Octavia’s actions, shouldn’t we extend that same sympathy to Clarke? Have Murphy and Raven tried to understand her?

a little chaos · 05-17-2019, 06:22 AM

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Originally Posted by April7739 (View Post)

And then there you are just shipping everyone.

Except the boring ships

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I think it's ridiculous that the only person at the moment who's at least trying to be forgiving of Octavia is Echo. The one who has basically no relation to her, no personal emotional investment in this

This actually makes a lot of sense to me that it would be Echo because Echo was forgiven by Spacekru so she knows how important that forgiveness is and she knows what it’s like to be in Octavia’s shoes.

**BlueDog9** · 05-17-2019, 06:29 AM

No one is ever really trying to understand someone's actions and reasons on this show. There's not time with the plot they need to burn through.

Octavia's definitely not having a rushed redemption. I have another show where they redeemed someone within one episode!

Echo's been okay so far this season with everything which makes me happy. I don't enjoy hating her.

Taryn74 · 05-17-2019, 07:14 AM

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Originally Posted by adam23089 (View Post)

If you really think Russel is a good guy. then why'd he say Dioysa is like hitler and BIN LADEN, BIN LADEN that's the most evil man besides Hitler he can think off, what about bush?

Setting aside the argument about whether or not Bush is an evil person (and I really hope politically charged posts like this aren't even supposed to be made here) Bin Laden was a known terrorist. Hitler committed mass genocide. They established last season that Diyoza was considered a military-hero-turned-terrorist on Earth, so it makes sense she would be listed with the likes of Bin Laden.

Besides, who is arguing that Russell is a good guy? I have seen nobody posting anything to that effect.

girl under the floor · 05-17-2019, 07:32 AM

Okay, I engaged, I know

But I'm not at all trying to make a list of who did worse to whom here though.
I'm just saying that if you take one side into consideration, you should take the other side in consideration too.

And this is definitely a problem that I have with the writing.

Bellamy / the story is written this way. So it's the story that I'll have to accept.
But I would've loved to see even a small piece of them sitting around the table, where Clarke explains / retells everything she's heard from Abby. And maybe Jordan adding in what he heard from his parents.
But that's not The 100. The 100 is a fast-paced show, we don't get those moments.

So since the show didn't actually show this, I am left assuming that Bellamy still doesn't know. And that he has put absolutely no effort into it either. The moment where Miller was saying "thanks for waking me". They could've just thrown one line in there, where Bellamy comments in some other way about Octavia, instead of "It wasn't you, Miller, it was ALL her."
But the writers didn't throw a line in there about that. So that concludes me, basing on what I see on screen, that Bellamy doesn't care / consider. He simple doesn't know the full extend of everything that happened (I'm not even talking about the events itself, I'm talking about her mindset, how she felt).

And considering the fact that he has zero interest in trying to understand her (this is what the writers are giving me), makes me not happy about this "tough love". If the show wants me to view this as tough love, then the show has to show me that he actually still loves her.

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This actually makes a lot of sense to me that it would be Echo because Echo was forgiven by Spacekru so she knows how important that forgiveness is and she knows what it’s like to be in Octavia’s shoes.

Oh I'm not saying Echo's attitude towards Octavia isn't making sense to me

I agree with you on this Becks

My calling it ridiculous wasn't to say it's ridiculous that Echo wants to forgive Octavia. I find it ridiculous that she's the only one

destroyer of worlds · 05-17-2019, 08:47 AM

Just a quick mod note ... to reiterate, people are free to state their opinions at all times, as long as you're not going into bashing territory. We are not all going to agree on things we like/dislike on the show and that's good (variety is the spice of life, and all) but we are all accountable for what we do end up saying, and people might call you out or feel like they want to share their own take on things.

Also, state what you need to state but if the other person clearly isn't going to agree/doesn't want to discuss it further, perhaps consider taking it to PM or moving on another topic. And also, it's not against FF rules but please be careful about how you word politically referenced posts in light of the sensitivities involved. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by girl under the floor (View Post)

It's because not for ONE second, have we seen him to try and place himself in her position. He came down with Spacekru, freed her from the bunker and immediately started judging her. Immediately decided that she was plain wrong in the entire cult situation.
TV shows are about "show - don't tell".

Show me that Abby takes responsibility for her part as well, instead of openly blaming Octavia all the time.
Show me that Clarke knows all of this. Let someone bring it back up again.
Give me the dang good talk where everyone vents

They should've done that before they left Space

In theory, I agree that he should have tried talking to Octavia and for us as viewers to be able to see that he's trying to understand her. But as to how it played out, whole different ballgame. He was immediately apprehensive yes, and was unnecessarily snarky during his first convo with her after the reunion. But she freaking threatened his life and the way the scene played out, with her saying nice things and then pulling him in and threatening him if he ever spoke out against Wonkru again (plus the scene before that too, when he spoke up against her and she didn't ask her people to back down against him). That felt like pure emotional manipulation to me, lulling him into a sense of security before uttering threatening lines. I feel like he'd be more open to understanding her if that hadn't happened. Doesn't mean that I agree that he should shut her out entirely, just that I can understand his mindset after being subjected to that by Octavia.

Abby needs to take several seats (Kane too, whenever he wakes up, that is). It was not all Octavia pulling the strings in the bunker. Pretty much the only person I see REALLY taking responsibility for what they did/didn't do in the bunker? Indra. (barring Adina's schedule, can they wake her up yet?

)

As I've said before, I've always found it a lot harder to connect to Octavia so that could very well influence how I view her POV vs. Bellamy's, for sure. Though I have to say, I actually empathize with Octavia a lot more after the Dark Year and seeing her obvious cry for help in episode 2 was also hard to watch. It was clear that she's suffering and she's looking to end it, once and for all.

Having said that, I don't feel like she fully believes now that some of her actions were wrong (and that she has to atone for that) and hence is repeating similar behaviour as in the bunker (going about killing people haphazardly even when the others were trying to stop her), and IMO that's really why Bellamy felt like he needed harsh boundaries to keep himself/the others safe and to ultimately save her from herself. And I felt like the show was trying to show that he DOES still care for Octavia by showing his heartbreaking reaction after he closed the ship door on her.

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For me, it would bring something fresh to a character we've now known for 5 seasons. Depending on how much of Clarke would be "in there", we'd get to see some pretty interesting mental struggle for Clarke. And if she were to be completely "taken over", the show would get to play with the old "do the others realize what is going on with her/ that it's not really her" theme. I for one am excited about that possibility

Me too.

Eliza has a great range and I think that if true, this will certainly challenge her further as an actress. And hopefully, that whole "which is actually Clarke and which is Josephine?" instead and seeing that internal turmoil that Clarke has to go through in the process ... it could be pretty intriguing.

April7739 · 05-17-2019, 02:59 PM

Great post, Sarah. I really agree with what you wrote.

Paula, as always, I like talking to you about this stuff, because even though we don’t always agree, it’s always interesting discussion.

Now I totally agree that we need to take both sides into consideration. So if we agree that Bellamy should make more of an effort to understand what happened down there and that it’s important for him to understand Octavia’s mindset, shouldn’t we also consider his mindset after everything she put him through in season 5? Because let’s be honest, it was a lot. Like Sarah said, that 5x05 scene at the end was emotionally manipulative. (I mean, one can argue that Bellamy used Madi’s emotions for Clarke to manipulate her into taking the flame later on the season, so neither of them is perfect.) Bob said last year that Bellamy was actually afraid of Octavia in season 5, and I can see why. And in regards to needing to see that he still loves her, I do agree with Sarah that we can see this when leaving her makes him cry. Also, in 5x13, didn’t he tell her that a part of him would always love her before she went into cryo?

Bellamy still cares about Octavia. But his whole world no longer revolves around her. And I’m think that’s healthy for him.

You know, it really is the same with Clarke. None of the characters, not even Bellamy, has really tried to understand what she went through during her 6 years alone. Bellamy started to ask her in 5x05 about how she survived alone, but she kind of breezed last it because she wasn’t ready to say more. And then everything got so life and death and plot heavy after that that we once again lost out on time for character moments.

sonny1 · 05-18-2019, 05:03 PM

Have read Selina's review and now I know why the Children of Gabriel need 12 heads:

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Here’s what we know: Sanctum was originally colonized by four families now known as the Primes. Those 12 Primes had Nightblood, intended to help them survive in conditions of heightened radiation. That blood is now considered ‘royal,’ and those who have it are referred to as ‘hosts.’ On her Naming Day, the Nightblood/host Delilah will become ‘Priya the 7th,’ which she indicates to Jordan marks the end of her own life.

Some speculations:

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Here’s what we think we know: the Primes are transferring their Flame-like personality chips into new Nightblood bodies once per generation and living forever as rulers/gods of their people, and this is why Kaylee (Sarah-Jane Redmond) doesn’t seem to consider her family members dead before they have their heads chopped off. Rose, Delilah and now Clarke are marked as hosts for the Primes, which means their bodies can/will be taken over by Primes in need of new bodies.

Russell clearly changes his mind about letting Clarke and her people stay because of her Nightblood; likely, his daughter Josephine is in storage somewhere, waiting for her turn to be resurrected in a suitable host body, and Clarke gives Russell an opportunity to let Josephine jump the queue.

This seems like a logical deduction based on the information we get in this episode (not that I called it last week or anything, no big deal), but obviously nothing is confirmed yet, and for all we know, it could be a giant misdirect.

But it’s always fun to speculate! So let’s indulge for a moment in this exciting possibility that Josephine and co. are still ‘alive,’ living in other bodies or waiting for a worthy body to jump into.

I think we’re pretty much all assuming that Clarke becomes the host for Josephine at some point, either by force or by choice in exchange for Madi and her people’s safety. This would, certainly, be a great new acting challenge for Eliza Taylor!

And I honestly hope we’re all reading the cards right, because this development would open up some incredible opportunities for both Clarke and everyone else to actually reckon with who Clarke is and what she is worth to them. Not as a leader or a savior or a martyr, but as Clarke.

Russell drops a major anvil about Clarke considering herself “disposable” early on in this episode, building on last week where her psychosis made her ready to take herself out of the equation to save Madi. If Clarke actually takes the leap and gives up her body to host a Prime, it’ll force everyone around her to truly reckon with how much they love and need her, and perhaps prompt them to fight for Clarke for a change. Imagine characters like Murphy, Bellamy and Raven being faced with this scenario. If the price of true peace is Clarke’s soul, is that a price they are willing to pay?

However you feel about the overarching Becca tech arc and the expansion of the Flame mythology, this reads strongly to me like a vehicle through which to explore Clarke’s diminishing self-worth, and force other people to confront how they feel about her worth. Not a superficial ‘I’m going to blame/forgive her for XYZ past action,’ but ‘this how how I truly feel about Clarke as an individual human being right now, and this is the length to which I am willing to go to save her.’ That is the story that could be at the heart of a potential AI reincarnation storyline this season. And I want that heart.

(I am trying and failing to not get too excited about the possibility in case the story goes in a totally different (and probably equally interesting) direction, but it’s hard. It would be SO GOOD.)

I obviously hear and understand the concerns shared by fans about this Prime/host business being a repetition of the Flame storyline and Commander lore, and while I suppose we’ll have to wait to have that conversation properly until we actually know if our theories are even correct, I will say that I wouldn’t consider a story about chip-facilitated resurrection to be a Flame rehashing.

At the core of The 100‘s mythology is the multi-faceted legacy of an ancient scientist on a Holy Grail quest to crack the code of eternal life (it’s an ∞ symbol for a reason, right?), and The Flame was just one branch on the Becca Pramheda story tree. ALIE/the City of Light was another. The Primes could be a third.

If our prevalent Prime chip theory is correct, it would be one entire brain mapping on a computer chip overriding the existing ‘programming’ of whatever brain it was embedded into, ala Altered Carbon (permanent), Dollhouse (reversible) or The Host (the new mind battling the old for control of the body).

The Flame, by contrast, collects minds as it goes and merges them into an existing AI; it’s important for the Flame to still be around to show how these two technologies are different, and it’ll only make Clarke’s journey more interesting when Russell/Josephine finds out about Madi and wants their hands on the tech in her head.

I personally think the slowly unfolding mythology of Becca Pramheda as the scientist/god/creator of the post-apocalyptic universe is brilliantly done. The flesh and blood of The 100 is always going to be its main characters and their relationships, but the bones are an overarching, multi-faceted exploration of humanity’s symbiotic yet mutually destructive relationship with technology. And that all of this technology ultimately stems from the brilliant brain of one female scientist is pretty damn cool.

Was Gabriel a Prime? Not necessarily; we can’t deduce that the Santiagos were a founding family, and there were a lot more than 12 people on that mission. But perhaps his relationship with Josephine granted him the opportunity to resurrect with her, becoming the 13th Prime (because there’s gotta be a 13th, right?!)

Whatever happened, at some point he split from the Primes, becoming an active threat to them to the point where they had to demonize him to turn their people against him and his followers.

Obviously the symbolism of Gabriel as a fallen angel cast out of Heaven and becoming the demon king of the underworld is pretty on the nose, but the first thing the Children of Gabriel reminded me of was actually an Icelandic legend that speaks of the ‘underground people’.

The story goes that when God came to visit Adam and Eve, he asked to see their children, but Eve hadn’t finished washing them all and so she only brought out the clean children and hid the others away. When God asked if there were more, she told him no, and God then said, “what man hides from God, God will hide from man.” These unwashed children then became the trolls and gnomes and elves that live in our forests, invisible to humans unless they want to be seen.

If we assume the Primes transfer their consciousnesses into new Nightblood bodies once per generation, then the Children of Gabriel would be outcasts because they reject this practice, thus rejecting the ‘gods’ of this world. Cast out of this planet’s Eden, they have blended into the forest to the point of invisibility. But they still refer to Sanctum as their home as though it should rightfully be theirs.

263 years after Gabriel landed on Alpha, his ‘children’ chant “death is life” because, I suppose, death is what makes us human. Without it, what are we? What are the Primes? AIs in human flesh? (Legend goes that this was once called a ‘Cylon’.) If Sanctum’s religion is based on the immortality of the Primes, the religion of the Children of Gabriel appears to be the sanctity of a natural death. And not only for themselves: they also seek to destroy the Primes, ending the — ahem — cycle.

But what about Gabriel himself? Could he somehow still be living in his original/first resurrected body, as the “old man” who has apparently abandoned/rejected them? Do the Children of Gabriel truly want to harm the Nightbloods they capture, or do they want to save them from becoming Prime hosts? (I suppose Octavia will find that out next week.)

However they got to be outcasts, it doesn’t seem like an accident that fellow outcast Octavia is the one to make contact with them. Her attempt to track and attack the Children of Gabriel recalled her attempt to track Indra and the Grounders in season 2 almost beat for beat, except now everyone has levelled up. I mean the forest! Is their weapon! So cool.

Source: https://www.hypable.com/the-100-seas...-be-our-guest/

Fuzzy Dunlop · 05-18-2019, 05:40 PM

Huh. Selina says that she doesn't think this is a rehash of the flame storyline, but it does seem like this season is doing a big remix/mash-up of previous season storylines. We've got season 1 with the cloud of death (which turned out to be bugs this time) and the grounders (CoG) lurking in the woods. And then there's a S2 Mountain Men vibe going on with the people in Sanctum. And now we've got S3 coming back with Becca's transhuman technology. Will the next episode introduce an incoming wave of deadly radiation? Probably not. But they are for sure recycling some concepts here.


Fan Forum > Archived Television Shows > The 100 > The Children of Gabriel [6X03] Episode Discussion 05-14-19