SongIceFire

Fuzzy Dunlop

TFTNT!

"Like two sides of a coin." Which one is tails?

kenni727

TFTNT!

Well supposedly Clarke is the head which would make Bellamy tails. I’m not seeing that though.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Let's see after this episode

SongIceFire

You're welcome guys! I am glad not being the only poster here

Do you think Bellamy is redeemable at this point? Clarke once again referred to him as her best friend which was cute. But right after he sent her to being tortured. I don't recognize Bellamy any more but I think it will turn all out to be him being the hero again and saving them cause that's his plan and somehow it surely will work out?

Fuzzy Dunlop

Oh, he's definitely redeemable. His motives are pure, right? He wants peace, enlightenment, and an end to war For All Mankind. That's what he wants for his loved ones. Ideally for him, he would convince them and Clarke would voluntarily want to help them find the flame. Like Bellamy is clearly pained by the fact that Clarke and them aren't playing along. But ultimately, he's thinking of the future of the human race and even if it turns out to based on bull****, I don't blame him. That's just where his experiences have led him to be. It's a genuinely held religious belief. I'm hoping eventually he'll uncover some info on Bardo that makes him rethink his choices. Like if he finds out the truth about the Final War somehow.

kenni727

I don't feel Bellamy has done anything THAT wrong. This last episode helped me to look at it from his perspective a bit better. It's not like he enjoys putting his friends and family through this. The situation is obviously causing him pain. He just genuinely doing what he believes is right. His experiences with Bardo and Cadogan have been vastly different from the others, which is unfortunate but why they are all now in this situation.

I find Clarke calling Bellamy her best friend weird. Not saying that he isn't. But just seems weird for her to all of a sudden be throwing that term around.

SongIceFire

I think this "best friend" line is also not always true. I feel like Clarke has a much better connection to Raven for example. Not sure if she is her best friend since they've also gone through a lot. I think they are all a group and equally friends if that makes sense?

Or JR just once again wants to make it clear Bellarke was never meant to be romantic and that's why he is emphasizing it so often? That there is no way of misinterpretation?

kenni727

It does feel a bit like Jason trying to make it clear they are FRIENDS since it's the last season and time running out so making it clear they aren't more than that. Which is silly. I feel like that's always been clear. I mean even when I shipped Bellarke it was all based on potential. I thought these two had a great bond and loved how they worked together. But I didn't yet see them as romantic. Some would say it was clear Bellamy was in love with Clarke back in season 4 and I'm thinking, "Are we watching the same show?"

I've never gotten the vibe that they are in love with each other. I used to think that could happen, but events in season 5 changed that for me.

And the term best friend just feels juvenile to me. I really feel like they should all be calling each other family. That has more meaning to me than them all constantly calling each other friends.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Yeah, I do think the term "best friend" is kinda goofy. Like in a post apocalyptic world, when you've traveled to another planet, do labels like that matter at all. Are Murphy and Emori "going steady?" Is the adventure squad a "clique?" You know what I mean?

But I do get it. Like what other shorthand language is Clarke going to use to describe why she cares about Bellamy? It's not like I could see Clarke pointing a gun at Cadogan and saying, "you killed my co-leader" and that having any kind of emotional impact.

That whole conversation between them was really cool, I thought. It reminded me a lot of the dynamic between them that made me like them so much in season 1. They're most interesting to me when they're in that kind of "frenemy" space. Where they're having a real difference of opinion on what to do next, but they are still respecting and listening to each other while they talk it out. The original "head and heart" comparison was, I thought, always about how they represent opposing view points and when they can work together, it's mean to be a celebration of compromise and teamwork. Their story arc is about how a partnership like that can develop by going through challenges. So I don't want them to just be buddies or dating or hooking up or whatever because I think that would be a distraction from what I consider to be the heart of their story together. I want their scenes to be about the conflict and the challenges. How do two opposing view points work things out for the common good?

kenni727

I'm laughing at "You killed my co-leader." And now I'm just imagining Clarke pointing the gun, "'Hello, my name is Clarke Griffin. You killed my [insert descriptor of Bellamy]. Prepare to die."

I still feel like family is the best descriptor for these people. Friends just doesn't really do it justice.

And yeah, that's what I always liked about them as well. From the beginning Clarke recognized Bellamy's ability to lead. And she used that to her advantage. I really think the only reason she became a leader was because she pushed and questioned him. That set her up on equal footing with him in the group's eyes. This also made him respect her and then he came to show deference to her at times. Whether on the same page or in opposition to each other they've had a respect for the other.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned in the Bellamy thread recently, I think they developed a codependency which isn't healthy. So I really appreciate Bellamy's relationship with Echo and think it would be good for Clarke to have someone else as well. It allows them to keep their objectivity where leadership is concerned.

SongIceFire

I think all in all I can agree with you.

I really hated many things Bellamy and Clarke did for "the greater good" and sometimes I wondered if the Sky People are worth all these deaths and destruction.

However I found my sympathy for Bellamy back when he and Echo became a pair cause that was and still is really healthy. OK not current Bellamy but I think he will get the old one again (and then probably dies).

I also think Family is the best term. Clarke is almost like a little sister for him as Octavia. Though Octavia/Bellamy is a another level of course.

Damocles

Genuine question - where is the line between "co-dependency" and a simple understanding of eachother's goals, weaknesses, desperation to help save their people, etc? Nothing they did they did alone. They were usually the ones who took the brunt of any fallout for the actions of the Sky People. They often made decisions when nobody else wanted to, each time they probably died a little inside. Like when Clarke had to make that crappy list back in season 4, and Raven was giving her hell for it - who helped her in the end? Is that co-dependency or sympathy for eachother and the positions they're in? Or do you consider it both?

How is Echo "healthier" for Bellamy? It's a genuine question (mostly for Kenni, who I know will be able to actually explain the reasoning well and provide real thoughts on the matter) because I can't wrap my head around it, and I've seen this argument on Twitter - usually from people who just hate Bellarke or Bellamy (not saying you think that, Kenni!). It's the same with Bellarkes saying Bellarke is "healthier" than Clexa. How about everyone agreeing NONE of these relationships are super healthy?! They're all based upon betrayal, murder, etc. But that would require shippers agreeing with eachother and heaven forbid that ever happens

Anyway, I get that people think Echo helped him "forgive" himself, somehow...or something - but I also can't see how people are connected to a relationship that developed 99% off-screen. I can totally see how Bellamy would be great for Echo, don't get me wrong. But I can't see how Echo is "healthy" for Bellamy given their history. Other than her sometimes challenging him or his decisions. I truly wish they gave us proper flashbacks of the Spacekru, and not the 2 second shot we got this season of Becho.

Anyway, I'm off topic and this thread is about Bellarke friendship - I can't see Clarke as his sister, not with the intimate shots they've shown us for absolutely no reason (think: his hand lingering on her back in season 5, their soft hug in season four while he grabbed her braid, Diyoza jokingly calling her his "girlfriend", etc. etc. etc. etc.) I'm sorry but how can you justify shots like that? What was the point of them? When did we get such shots with him and Octavia? I think it's ok, as Clexa and Becho fans, to not want romantic Bellarke but to completely disagree that there were bait-y shots thrown in...I just can't. Fuzzy, I'm waiting for your rebuttal here

The Bellarke friendship is something beautiful and even if it doesn't become romantic, which is looking unlikely, it was developed over the course of these 7 (well, cough6cough - really) seasons and I'm surprised this thread was created with five episodes left, and only with the supposed confirmation that romantic Bellarke isn't happening. I am all for the exploration of their beautiful friendship, but if this thread is solely to look for reasons why they aren't or shouldn't be romantic and why Becho makes more sense, then I'm failing to see the purpose other than simply not wanting to post in the regular Bellarke or Becho threads?

Fuzzy Dunlop

The thing is, these "intimate" shots don't look intimate to me. Not any more so than scenes of Bellamy and Octavia or Diyoza and Octavia or Jasper and Monty. Clearly they're important to each other, but nothing in the story is telling me that their connection is romantic in nature. For one, they keep falling for other people and have never even vaguely attempted to hook up with each other. For another thing, they've been oscillating back and forth between being friends and betraying each other. That's not romantic to me.

I was thinking about it and, more than even a family/sibling relationship, I think Bellarke are more like a buddy cop duo. Circumstances threw them together and they butted heads initially. But they learned to respect each other and even though they still have their disagreements from time to time, at the end of the day, they're partners who love each other. They would do anything to keep each other alive. They're a team.

But keep in mind that if these two buddy cop characters were both men, nobody would think it's weird that they didn't hook up. It's perfectly normal for a story to be about two cops or soldiers or something who are super close and go on adventures together, but they still have their own wives, family, kids at home, etc. I'm not gonna be like "wtf, this makes no sense!!!!!!!!!" if they don't end up together. It's fine. The story doesn't need it. And Jason always made it really clear that he never had any plans to make them romantic. He wasn't baiting anyone. He likes their relationship a lot exactly the way it is. And so do I.

Kenni and I have wanted to have honest conversations about Bellarke that don't revolve around shipping them for a looooooooong time. I know I wanted to be allowed to talk about it on your shipping thread in S2 and I basically got chased away. And we have even asked you guys in the past if we could have an alternate thread to talk about them and you said no. So I guess my question is why you guys suddenly changed your mind about it now, 5 episodes away from the end, now that you have to acknowledge the very real possibility that Bellarke aren't going to be canon. What's up?

Damocles

The issue in the past with alternative threads wasn't for this type of thread, because the Bellarke thread IS a friendship thread, just like it's a Beliza thread. Well, it's supposed to be a generic Bellarke relationship thread since they aren't romantically canon, but yeah.

As far as I know nobody tried to open a 'friendship' thread (please correct me if I'm wrong) , I know there had been attempts for game threads and other random things ...people tried to open ones and we received complaints from people on the Clexa thread, so we had to shut them down. So everything basically had to stick to "one thread per couple/pairing/topic", etc. I do agree that people on the Bellarke thread can sometimes get very defensive over the suggestion that they are just friends - especially in the past.

Back to the touching - how can you tell me that closeups and lingering shots of fingers on backs, arms, breathing in eachother's necks, etc. isn't more intimate than the other pairings on the show? Non-romantic ones. I genuinely want to know, I'm not being defensive or anything of the sort. Jasper never stroked Monty's back. Octavia never caressed Diyoza's braid. It's just that strange directional choices were made with their relationship and I can't figure out why. But of course, it's also subjective and other people won't see it that way.

For me personally - I personally started to give up on them being canon in season 5, and last year certainly didn't help things, and this year it's just...obvious. I absolutely did not change my mind with five episodes left. Plus soundbites from castmembers, and spoiler accounts that I put way too much trust in don't help.