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Old 03-18-2017, 01:16 PM
  #61
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^I don't think it was meant like that. Besides, whether or not suicide is ever "right" there is understanding that after a long hard life of struggle, someone would be tired and missing their loved ones. I think that's what was meant. Besides, there was admiration for Caroline standing strong and carrying on, even though being left behind.
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Old 03-18-2017, 05:52 PM
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Well...

I am interested to see what everyone's thoughts are on those final "afterlife" scenes.

I was with it up until a certain point. Stefan dying seemed unnecessary but I never totally understood pairing him with Caroline so that tragic twist didn't really bother me. Not to take away from Steroline fans, we all have our ships and it's pretty ****ty that Stefan had to be the big sacrifice the night of his effing wedding. I'm not understanding why he couldn't just stab Katherine with the knife and jump out of the way; other than the writers decided it had to be done - there was no real explanation of WHY a sacrifice was needed when this time around Katherine was going to be easy enough to kill off.

Having said that the idea of a Stefan sacrifice seemed full circle and made sense in a way - it was Stefan's story from beginning to end right to matching the total number of episodes to his age. He was the catalyst that started off the endless chain of events that followed. He turned Damon. It made sense to me that the character was desperate for a final redemption - save the town and save his brother, undo everything that he started, give his friends (family) a re-set and set himself free to find peace. Not to mention Enzo. He was struggling to come back from that and his relationship with Bonnie was irreparably damaged. So, fine. I get that. I think Damon and Stefan have been pretty equal regarding their history of bloodshed and questionable actions, you can't really say one is worse than the other because there's been points where one has been worse than the other, and then it flips and balances them out. Damon never really atoned for Tyler I guess, but Tyler in my opinion had been written poorly for years and there was no real progression of the character. When he left, I was, meh. When they brought him back in what I thought was a poorly conceived storyline just for Damon to kill him - a total waste of time and a failure on the part of the writers to give it any emotional punch or pay-off. Tyler had been offscreen except for a couple of scenes (him taking Elena's coffin, etc) for years. Why are we suddenly to care that he gets killed off, again? Because he was an original cast member? Nope. Even as a Damon fan I also disagree with Stefan's line about him being the better brother - because he wasn't. If anything, combining the qualities of the two would have made one extremely attractive, perfect specimen. That was a sloppy line and an insult to the actual protagonist of the damn story.

It was going to be impossible to please everyone but Nina essentially drove the writers into a corner when she left at the end of S6. Let's not begrudge her for that, she wanted to move on and they wrote her off in such a way that they could revive her for the finale, which is what happened. Nina leaving and then only being able to return for one episode sealed the fate of Delena. As a Delena fan that suits me, but had Nina never left Stelena would have circled back around again as love triangles do in long running series. I never understood why so many people accused the writers of fan service because Nina and Ian were once an item. It quite literally began as a story of a human girl caught between two vampires, struggling with the choice of whom she loved best. It was never going to be Stelena the entire run - a love triangle dictates that you swing between the two choices and that's what happened. Nina leaving, however, set the end of the story. There was no time to circle back to Stelena in an organic way, and so I think under the circumstances the writers did the best they could - the choice had to be Damon as she had far outgrown Matt and no one else ever came close to what either brother could offer her. Of course it would have been gutsy to have her end up with no one at that point in the story - but there is something to be said for having pay off in the form of her ending up with one brother or the other.

That takes us to the ending itself - one brother dying, one surviving. I understand Julie's reasoning that she didn't want to kill off both, again Nina departing changed the course of the story. Both Paul and Ian campaigned for both brothers to sacrifice their lives for her to live, fulfilled and safe, in the human life she craved. In that circumstance pairing her off with Matt may have worked. Kevin and Julie early on had the same idea of that ending. The course of the story had to change with Nina's decision; it has nothing to do with fan servicing or Julie prioritising Ian over Paul.

Would I have preferred a "bigger" Delena reunion? Absolutely. I think it had far less to do with Ian and Nina "hating" each other and far more to do with the distinct lack of time there was to put on a proper finale. It needed minimum 60 minutes, more like 80. Apparently there were several cut scenes of their life together. What we got was the end result of some cutthroat editing. Do I think Delena deserved better than what was on show? Yes. Nina and Ian proved they could work together after they broke up, and their scenes still sparked with chemistry and made us root for the relationship to survive. In the two seasons without Nina, Ian had the task of making us believe that he was still so completely dedicated and in love with her whilst she was offscreen, and he succeeded - otherwise fans wouldn't have been so excited for the big reunion. So to accuse Ian or Nina of not giving it their best, or not wanting to play passionate because Ian's married and Nikki hates Nina, is silly. No one knows what happened between the two of them except the two of them. They continued to work together and gave us some great scenes after the break up. They've spoken highly of each other. The finale as a whole was rushed and Delena, among many other things happening in the finale, suffered for it. Don't forget, too, that Damon had just lost Stefan (although not really sure on how much time passed before Bonnie broke Kai's spell - don't get me started on that loophole) and so it was the definition of bittersweet that he lost Stefan but got back Elena. That could have played into that simple hugging scene outside the crypt too - Damon had told Stefan earlier that even a life with Elena means a lot less without his brother in that same life. That being said, we got the circle shot of Elena's reaction in the embrace. I did feel cheated that we didn't circle to Damon's reaction, finally being able to touch the woman he's loved for so long and fought through endless obstacles for. Poor writing or poor editing/blocking, it damaged the scene for me.

Now the final scene. I'm really interested in how others interpreted it. At first I was like, hmm, okay. I can be satisfied with that. But then I started thinking about it and I have questions.

I assume that when Damon disappeared that meant she died first and it makes sense she would reunite and be at peace with the family she had missed for most of her life (I thought John being there was strange but whatever), same for Damon meeting up with Stefan. You'll note that Damon was wearing a different shirt when he met up with Stefan in the afterlife so you can assume he and Elena died at different times. But does peace for the both of them include each other? Were Damon and Elena separated in the afterlife? Not to mention other loved ones - Enzo, etc. It seemed that the idea of "Heaven" to these characters was the town of Mystic Falls - that was their version of an afterlife. Do we assume they are all there together, just not necessarily in that same scene?

And just to further complicate things, was Stefan really there with Damon; did they actually meet up in the afterlife or was that just Damon's vision of what peace is and Stefan is in another dimension of peace with Lexi? Stefan seemed to be waiting for him, and didn't expect that knock on the door. But KW's quote below makes me question the intention.

JP seems to hint in interviews that their peace does include each other. KW on the other hand seems to have a different opinion. Whether that's because of his preference for Stelena is another question.

Take a page out of six feet under, that's how you do a finale.
So frustrated...when you do a finale you owe it to the viewers to give them proper closure, none of this "it's up to your interpretation" crap - that's your job as the writer, not mine as the longtime viewer.

One of JP's interview answers which would settle a few questions if they just stuck to that spiel:

PLEC: That is the one singular moment in the episode that in my opinion is open to individual interpretation. To me, what it means, is that last little walk is representative of a life well lived for them. Like the idea that life well lived with family, with children, whatever it is that they wanted and then them parting at the end of a long life, and her finding her peace and him going to find his.

Not to say that their peace doesn’t include each other, but you know there’s reunions to be had first before you settle into whatever your life looks like after you pass. That’s my interpretation. It’s the idea that goodbye doesn’t need to be goodbye forever.

Another interview where the previous answer is pretty much flipped to the opposite:

You can ask yourself the question: Is peace an individual experience, or is it a shared energy? If Elena’s first moment at peace is being reunited with the family she lost that kickstarted this whole journey for her, maybe they all meet up at the drive-in for milkshakes with the Salvatores and anyone else who’s around, and they’ll all watch Scream on the big screen. Or maybe, after a life that’s lived in full, peace is about finding closure with those we’ve lost.

Then KW's answer re that last brother scene which makes me question if it was even "real" -

Well, that's a little interpretive, if you ask Julie [Plec], I believe. The idea was the montage shows a direction and we had our characters suggest what happened to them. And Damon, like the voiceover tell us, he was worried he would never see Stefan again. It was just Elena assuring him that there would be peace. That we've dealt with this other side of darkness for several seasons, but there's also light out there and there's peace, and Damon will find it. If you search for it, you will find it. And we wanted to get that last moment to see that yes, Elena found it and yes, Damon found it too, and it looked just like his brother. - looked just like his brother - but was it actually his brother?

Guys, help out here. I could be overthinking this - and sorry for the essay - but I hate it when the end of shows leave you with questions.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:01 AM
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Good point!

Someone posted an interesting point but it's gone...but the gist was that by the time we saw Damon and Elena walking down the street it was already the afterlife, they'd both died whether it be at the same time or apart, and they were in the afterlife together. This is not a bad theory because the scene just prior was a shot of them holding hands, in a smoky light - heading towards the afterlife??
When Damon disappeared he went to find Stefan/peace, and Elena found hers. So I guess you can kind of assume everyone they loved ended up in the mystic falls afterlife together. The one thing that bothers me about that is that Damon was wearing a different shirt compared to walking the street with Elena and then seeing Stefan
Not to open the can of worms regarding Caroline again, but it's an interesting subject. She will likely be the last one alive through many generations. She said to Damon "WE'LL see him again." You have to wonder if she would like to reunite with Stefan and everyone else she loves at some point. She was married less than 24 hours, it is kind of a devastating end to her arc even though she has the children, Alaric and the school...and possibly Klause.
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:30 AM
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The subject of Caroline and the afterlife is closed. The last time is was brought up the thread was shut down for aggressive behavior between posters. It's a sensitive subject, suicide, so if you would like to take the conversation to private message that's fine, but seeing as how this topic and some viewpoints offended others and derailed the thread we have elected to no longer discuss it. Thank you .

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As for Damon and Elena it was pretty clear to me how Elena said she and Damon had spent a long and happy life together before passing on that despite looking young they were much older. And I think the reason it was shown that they found peace separately is either because they died at different times, maybe Elena was first which is why Damon disappeared when walking down the street, or they just reunited with their loved ones - those they missed most - first.

It really was a sloppy and rushed ending to me.
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Old 03-24-2017, 07:33 AM
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You know what I hated in the finale beside the ****ty script for katherine and Ian's sucvking acting,especially in delena's scenes?

That they actually tried to fool people into thinking that the show was about the salvatore bromance, that their story was the core of the show.They could fool people who watched only s7 and s8.But no one who watched the first 6 seasons could believe it.

The show was Elena's story. It started with her and should have ended with the last scene being her reunion with her family.

The show didn't start with the human brothers, the brothers turning,time jump to the brothers meeting Elena and didn't end with Stefan's death. It ended years after Stefan's death, with Elena's death.

The show was about:

-17 years old Elena feeling dead inside since her parents death
-Elena meeting and falling for 2 vampire brothers
-Elena the dobbleganger of Katherine
-Elena whose blood Klaus was after to make hybrids, and he wouldn't have found her without the brothers
-Elena human trying to survive in that supernatural world
-Elena losing her family
-Elena becoming vampire
-Elena trying to cope and survive as a vampire
Elena human again....

For 6 freaking seasons the whole show was about Elena, the main story was HER story.

Of course there are other sidestories,One of them the salvatore bromance.But they weren't the main story till Nina left, so only for 2 seasons.Yet they ended the show with their scene.

They lived over 150 years before meeting Elena yet the show started when they met her.We only got a few flashbacks of their past to explain a few things,but they weren't the focus.The focus was HER life since she lost her parents

Elena haters had no valid reason to hate her so they pointed out one fact:Everything was about her, around her, and wether they liked her or not she was the heart and soul of the show but we're supposed to believe that it was always the bromance...Sorry but it's revolting.Had the bromance been the main story,what the show was about, they would have ended Elena's story in season 6, yet they didn't because even focusing on the brothers in s7 and s8, it was still Elena's story and it only ended when she died.

I loved that the finale was focused on family, loved both bolena reunions, loved stelena's scene, loved every katherine scene(Nina is exceptionnal), but wasn't moved once by Ian, not with Paul,not with Candice, not with Nina
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:06 PM
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I never was a fan of Elena, but that isn't because 'it was all about her' and more about just not liking her character and the way she was written.

I agree though that the premise of the show was always about how Elena, being this human girl, was suddenly thrust into this dangerous supernatural community and how she dealt and survived. When Nina left they tried to rebrand as it being about the 2 brothers learning to become a family again and I would have been able to buy that had there been more leading up to it and not just them fighting over a girl until they just weren't .
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:38 PM
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Mmm

The thing about Elena though is that her bloodline or whatever you want to call it started centuries prior with Katherine etc, as a petrova doppelganger. Yes the focus is on Elena but the story was in motion well before she came into it - the brothers, both completely in love with Katherine, turned by her into vampires. That kicks off Stefan's story as the protaganist because choices he made would come back to haunt all of them. Centuries later and Stefan finds himself back home, discovering Elena exists, saving her life the night her parents died. I think Elena was the focus or catalyst seasons 1-6 but watching the show in its entirety I always understood it, at the core, to be about the brothers, whether it's them fighting over Elena, saving Elena, fighting with each other, saving each other, navigating through centuries together etc.
I actually thought seasons 7-8 were a bit of a return to form for the show after a slow seasons 5-6. Parts of 5-6 I loved - Bonnie and Damon on the other side, Kai (one of their better Big Bads - I think I dozed through most of the Travellers storyline). Elena, Stefan and Damon were the heart of the show no question, but it did revive somewhat when Nina departed, probably because they were forced to focus on other things...and putting the focus back on the brothers instead of the triangle - which really had resolved itself by around season 3-4 - was a good move because Ian and Paul have their own great chemistry that had the chance to shine a bit more. Having said that I thought the Siren sisters was dragged out far too long - we got two seasons of them when really one would have been more than sufficient. Comes back to the plotting too - knowing it was their final season it was obvious that the final Big Bad was going to be their version of Hell; the ultimate in good versus evil and the idea of redemption and finding peace. Pronouncing Katherine as the Queen of Hell was a great idea and came back full circle to season 1...but I thought the execution was rushed and sloppy. To really drive home the Queen of Hell idea they needed to have Nina for way more than one episode, which wasn't possible. In that case I think they needed to pick someone else as the devil altogether, and maybe then they would have been able to put more focus on Nina playing Elena's return and her reunions with her friends. Really that's what everyone was waiting for.
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:01 PM
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The thing about Elena though is that her bloodline or whatever you want to call it started centuries prior with Katherine etc, as a petrova doppelganger. Yes the focus is on Elena but the story was in motion well before she came into it - the brothers, both completely in love with Katherine, turned by her into vampires. That kicks off Stefan's story as the protaganist because choices he made would come back to haunt all of them. Centuries later and Stefan finds himself back home, discovering Elena exists, saving her life the night her parents died. I think Elena was the focus or catalyst seasons 1-6 but watching the show in its entirety I always understood it, at the core, to be about the brothers, whether it's them fighting over Elena, saving Elena, fighting with each other, saving each other, navigating through centuries together etc.
I actually thought seasons 7-8 were a bit of a return to form for the show after a slow seasons 5-6. Parts of 5-6 I loved - Bonnie and Damon on the other side, Kai (one of their better Big Bads - I think I dozed through most of the Travellers storyline). Elena, Stefan and Damon were the heart of the show no question, but it did revive somewhat when Nina departed, probably because they were forced to focus on other things...and putting the focus back on the brothers instead of the triangle - which really had resolved itself by around season 3-4 - was a good move because Ian and Paul have their own great chemistry that had the chance to shine a bit more. Having said that I thought the Siren sisters was dragged out far too long - we got two seasons of them when really one would have been more than sufficient. Comes back to the plotting too - knowing it was their final season it was obvious that the final Big Bad was going to be their version of Hell; the ultimate in good versus evil and the idea of redemption and finding peace. Pronouncing Katherine as the Queen of Hell was a great idea and came back full circle to season 1...but I thought the execution was rushed and sloppy. To really drive home the Queen of Hell idea they needed to have Nina for way more than one episode, which wasn't possible. In that case I think they needed to pick someone else as the devil altogether, and maybe then they would have been able to put more focus on Nina playing Elena's return and her reunions with her friends. Really that's what everyone was waiting for.
I can't agree with that because the show didn't start with the brothers as humans.They didn't show us as present time their lives as humans,meeting katherine, turning, meeting Elena.They could have, they had 6 seasons to show us the brother's full story and Elena being just part of it, not the main focus.But they didn't..they had lived over 150 years before meeting Elena and all they showed us of those years were a few flasbacks to explain certain things. The show started when they met Elena and we weren't told about Elena's life we were shown her full life.Stefan that the first to say this is my story but he wasn't the only one. In fact the 3 main character were telling Elena's story. The show didn't end with Stefan's death, it ended years after when Elena died, Elena writing one last time in her diaries about her EPIC LIFE, HER STORY.

Katherine deserved redemption more than the brothers in my opinion.

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Old 03-24-2017, 08:07 PM
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Katherine deserved redemption mire than the brothers in my opinion.
Why? Stefan was always trying to redeem himself for his mistakes... and I don't like Damon, but even he was trying to redeem himself in the end. What makes a character like Katherine, who never even wanted to be redeemed deserve redemption over them?
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:40 PM
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I wouldn't say Katherine deserved anything. She was an extremely interesting and complex character, in my opinion. I think had they given her a chance at redemption it should have been when she became human again. However they screwed that up and just continued her selfish nature and her "survivor" shtick until just killing her off permanently in a pretty underwhelming way tbh. So no, I don't think she deserved redemption at this point. 3-4 seasons ago I would have been into it, but not now.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:01 PM
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Why? Stefan was always trying to redeem himself for his mistakes... and I don't like Damon, but even he was trying to redeem himself in the end. What makes a character like Katherine, who never even wanted to be redeemed deserve redemption over them?
Damon had no interest in redemption till his future with Elena was at risk. The only time we saw him actually try to change was in season 8. Stefan? He keeps doing the same thing over and over again and claim that he feels guilty about it. All Katherine did was try to survive, wether on earth or in hell and she went to extremes to do that.The brothers on the other hand.....
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:18 PM
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Damon had no interest in redemption till his future with Elena was at risk. The only time we saw him actually try to change was in season 8. Stefan? He keeps doing the same thing over and over again and claim that he feels guilty about it. All Katherine did was try to survive, wether on earth or in hell and she went to extremes to do that.The brothers on the other hand.....
I would also point out that in the end... it wasn't even about Elena for Damon, she was a huge part of it, but I would say Damon wanted to be redeemed because he actually had a life now, and you could clearly see that he wanted to be better for his brother. And Stefan doing the same thing over and over again is because of the whole ripper thing, it's an addiction, not a choice. Stefan killed himself because of how guilty he was over his lifetimes of mayhem. I understand why Katherine did what she did, but it still doesn't mean she deserves redemption, especially when in the end that is not what she was seeking, in fact, I don't think she ever wanted it.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:29 PM
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I would also point out that in the end... it wasn't even about Elena for Damon, she was a huge part of it, but I would say Damon wanted to be redeemed because he actually had a life now, and you could clearly see that he wanted to be better for his brother. And Stefan doing the same thing over and over again is because of the whole ripper thing, it's an addiction, not a choice. Stefan killed himself because of how guilty he was over his lifetimes of mayhem. I understand why Katherine did what she did, but it still doesn't mean she deserves redemption, especially when in the end that is not what she was seeking, in fact, I don't think she ever wanted it.
Well let's agree to disagree.The first tine he was ripper, it wasn't under his control , he didn't know how to control it, but it becomes his decision, choice responsibility when he chooses to turn his humanity off and be the ripper again.

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Old 03-24-2017, 10:48 PM
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Damon was a slow burn kind of change. Flashes of redeeming qualities in season 1 and then as the story grew so did he. At the bottom of it all he was totally in love with this girl who had the ability to make him want to be a better person, and he would do anything to protect her. The downside was he was willing to do that at the expense of everyone else especially in the earlier seasons - Bonnie, Matt etc whereas Stefan always gave her the choice; he would never ask her to put her life ahead of anyone else. Although he may have wanted to he never forced that situation upon her, but Damon was a different story - Elena was always the priority and if anyone else had to die so she could live then so be it.
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:09 AM
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Well let's agree to disagree.The first tine he was ripper, it wasn't under his control , he didn't know how to control it, but it becomes his decision, choice responsibility when he chooses to turn his humanity off and be the ripper again.
Meh every time Stefan turned it off it was because of someone forcing him to. It wasn't his decision. There was Klaus compelling him to in s3, Caroline threatening to have his long lost relative murdered if he didn't in s6, and then the devil telling him to turn off his humanity to reap him souls in s8. Unless I'm forgetting a different time Stefan never willingly turned off his humanity and became a ripper. It was always someone else's decisions that forced that onto him. Excluding the times he went ripper on people with his humanity on I suppose.
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