HappySquared

ETA: Nevermind Kem already mentioned it. If you haven't noticed I asked one person earlier to edit a post that bashes Bonnie, so yep, same deal with every character. If we missed something, PM us. Thanks for your cooperation.

kiwiextreme

that was great!! cant wait to see next week, i must say i'm really feeling sorry for damon

sweet_zelda

Elena started out the episode with ignoring Damon, with trying to avoid him. It was him who kept coming to her, teasing her in the car and outright lying to her face when she asked him if he'd seen the ring. She might not have expected an honest answer, but this shows that he was trying to pass this incident off as something that was trivial, something that could be forgiven easily.

Again, both those incidents you mentioned happened after he tried to brush it over and pretend everything was fine. It was after Elena showed him very well that she wasn't going to take his teasing and his stories and that she was just going to live on without them. He was the one trying to manipulate her into talking to him, into saying she'd be his friend again if in return he would give her information she needed. So, in essence, he started the whole manipulating ordeal thinking he'd win. But she ended up turning it around on him and he wasn't expecting that. He was expecting her to forgive him or to say it was possible because like he said, they had become friends before and she hated him then, too.

Damon went into this episode expecting Elena to give in. He teased her about possibly having information but only giving it out if she was nice to him. If you will, he set himself up for her to manipulate him. And he didn't think she'd do that.

Like I said, yes, she definitely is using his affection for her, but if you've noticed, she's using it to save others. She wasn't using it to gain information. Her behaviour at Duke did not show her leading him on, it showed her exasperated at his attitude and his act about their friendship. He had overstepped a line in the past, and he wasn't making it any better by telling HER she needed to adjust her attitude.

The look on her face at the porch? It was wasn't an "Oh crap, I got caught" face. She is a nice person by default, she hates hurting others. And Damon showed hurt so she felt guilty. And like I said, she did use his affections, just not in the way he claims she did.

As someone else mentioned, Damon is used to getting his way. He is used to be the one with the upper hand and suddenly there's Elena, and she doesn't do what he wants. She doesn't admit to feelings he thinks she may have (and I'm the first to say that I'm not surprised he'd think she'd have them, even though she had told him multiple times that it wasn't going to happen), she doesn't tell him there's still hope for their friendship and he lashes out. At least this time, he didn't hurt anyone physically.

He is also holding Elena to a different standard than himself, because like I said before, if someone had done what he did to Jeremy to his brother... would he forgive them?

If he lashes out at her for saying there's no hope for their friendship two weeks give or take) after the incident, how is that showing that he understands fully what he did? Not to us, but to Elena, to the person that matters in this case. How did he show her that he understood what it meant to her that he came to her house, tried to kiss her even while she was telling him no and then killed her brother in a flash of fury?

Damon doesn't do groveling, no. But Damon doesn't do friendship, either. Damon does acquaintances, like the Sheriff or Alaric, if either one of them decided he was an idiot and not worth talking to, he wouldn't care as much as he cares about Elena. So yeah, I expected more from him, considering he really seemed to want that friendship back. Only he didn't want to actually have to work for it, since the last time he referred to, it just fell in his lap.

niadk

Damon: "You used me today"
Elena: "You had informations that I needed"

What exactly we dont understand here? Elena had admitted that she used him. Its in the show. So why dont we just stick to what we actually see in the show?

Elena has the right to hate him. I wouldnt want to be friends with him after snapping my brother's neck. But she did use him. She admitted that. So, Damon called her up for that. Its simple actually.

sweet_zelda

Sure, she used him. But she didn't manipulate him into thinking she'd be his friend again if he gives her info. That was all on him.

Comparing Elena to Katherine showed that he thought she would say there's a possibility for them to be friends again if he gave her info, because that would be a Katherine-sortof reward.
Katherine lied to him, making him think that he would be the only one, that she would turn only him in the end. That's why he put up with the triangle, because he thought that at the end, she would leave Stefan behind and would be with Damon. And for that, he did a whole bunch of things, I'd imagine.
And he expected to be "paid" in a way, for his info and Elena said no. So he believes she manipulated him when she did no such thing. She didn't pretend she'd be his friend again, he just assumed that's how it would happen.

niadk

I dont see much difference from using someone to get your want and manupilating someone to get your want I think we just "play" with the words here when at the end, the meaning is the same.

And Damon didnt expect Elena to forgive him because he gave her the book. He didnt even "used" the fact that he saved her life a few hours ago. And THAT was something that he could use. He saved her life and he didnt even say "doesnt that count for something?"
I would use that! Everyone would. So, he Knows what he did. As Asena said he just asked If there is a chance for them. If she would concider to be his friend again.
Elena didnt promise that If he shared his informations they would be friends again, but she did lead him on. She used his feelings and she admitted that.
She did something wrong and she felt bad. Did he deserve that? Probably he did. But that doesnt change the fact that she used him.

sweet_zelda

I see a big difference in what she did and what he claims she did.

I don't think anything in what she did was leading Damon on, and that's why we're gonna have to agree to disagree

In comparing what Elena did to what Katherine did, Damon showed what he thought was going on. Katherine lied to him, manipulated him into thinking he would end up being the only one. Elena never manipulated Damon into thinking she would eventually be his friend again, but she did use his affection for her. And she could have lead him on by not responding to his question in the end and just leaving it up to his interpretation, but she didn't.

ETA: He didn't bring up that he saved her life, no. But she didn't bring up that she saved his life last week either, did she? She could have used that as leverage, too.

He's hurt because he thought it would be that easy to "chip away her hatred", that his gesture of giving her information would win her over. And it didn't. He apparently doesn't realize that he needs to work much harder, instead of making jokes about her attitude and how if she were nice to him, he'd share what he knows.

Schumiac

Stefan and Elena had a conversation about how Elena is not thrilled to go on a roadtrip with Damon (which Damon is not privy to) but given she agreed to go on a roadtrip with him, she was not really trying to avoid it at all costs. And the scenes in the episode do not necessarily show Elena trying to avoid Damon IMO

Their first scene was in Salvatore House with Alaric. Damon was not at all bugging Elena nor was she ignoring him. Apparently she agreed to go on a roadtrip with Damon after this group session so Damon so she is not really avoiding him -which, given they are all allies and working together is not really something she can do.

Their second scene is them getting in the car. Damon is waiting just outside the car, which is normal behaviour. He tells STEFAN he'll take good care of Elena, to which Elena responds by looking directly in his eyes and having a long kiss with Stefan for the clear purpose of getting back at Damon. Again, she is not trying to avoid him and he is not stalking her down to bother her.

Their third scene is at the car. Damon goes "how do you do back there" and tells him she can't hate him forever. He is trying to get her to talk on their "friendship" issue and her hatred of him. She responds. Again don't see Elena trying to "avoid" him and him not letting it be.

All three were there at Duke to gather information. Damon gets shot with the crossbow arrow intended for Elena, which is how they end up getting their first alone scene there. That is still not Elena trying to avoid Damon and Damon not letting her be. Actually Damon was leaving Elena there to go kill the crossbow lady and it is Elena's "if you do that I will never talk to you" that brings him back to the room and talking to Elena. Because using that line Elena has reopened the "friendship" conversation HERSELF. That is why Damon says "what makes you think you have that power over me. Because I took a crossbow for you?" and THAT is when Elena gets that "uh-oh caught" face (not the porch scene). Her little slip-up with the "I'll never talk to you again" which is something you tell a friend is what made Damon more confidence for later on, probably, and that is why he continued with his playful approach (which is just that. It is not reflective of what he feels or thinks inside but how he opts to DEAL with it. His playful approach does not mean he is NOT aware of the importance of a situation, it means to the outside he tries to have a nonchalant face). Their banter, that Damon is so used to from, S1 is on.

The "I have information but with that attitude I am not sure I'll give it to you" thing came later on, when Damon was already given signs by Elena that it was possible for her to forgive him, that it was possible to save their frienship as part of her still viewed him as one. He wasn't telling her to "forgive me on the spot", but to treat him nicer. It was a childish thing to do, and he got slapped in the wrist for it by Elena who said "friends do not manipulate friends". Which is her still keeping the "frienship" talk on the table, but letting him now his playful approach (which she has always been able to see through) is not going to work. THAT forces him to take the approach he does NOT like, which is him baring his soul and talking about his real feelings and being all serious. (which is the outside the car scene where he gives her the book and lets her know all he really wants is some confirmation of the hope it is possible to win her friendship sometime in the future & later on the porch scene).

So Elena has not been avoiding Damon this episode at all, rather knowing he wanted to be friends she used that to get what she wanted from him, all her conversations with him revolved around the frienship issues, some of which SHE started...

But, as I said, she admits to this on the porch:

Elena: About the question you asked earlier? The answer is, yes. You have lost me forever.
Damon: But then you knew this all the time, didn't you? You used me?
Elena: You had information I needed...

What she is agreeing to is knowing she never intended to be friends with him again but letting him think there was a hope of that so he would do what she wanted. And I think her actions also suggest this. It is after this line he says the Katherine line, and he is using that due to the manipulation and how that is a Katherine move. He is hurt because Elena is lost to him but also because he was given false hope and used. He is upset with Elena and calling him Katherine due to the manipulation though. He knows how much he screwed up, and that there was a chance she may not forgive him, but she really gave him hope that day and when she said it was all a ruse to get him to give her the information she wanted, it hurt.

Can Elena be lying? Was she tempted to give Damon a 'maybe, but you need to work at it a lot' but decided against it when he told her he did not saw the ring and rather just wanted to hurt and humiliate him by saying no, there was no way they could ever be friends now and she has actually took advantage of his silly little hope to get what she wanted? It is possible. But DAMON is going with what Elena told him, and I also believe Elena. I think she did wish Damon would say "I saw the ring" as that would make forgiving him easier in the future, but I don't think she had any intention of letting him now it was possible just yet. I think she wanted him to suffer more, regardless of whether he saw the ring or not, because what he did was horrible and for a moment there Elena's heart was shattered into a thousand pieces as she did believe Jeremy was dead, and she wishes that kind of hurt on Damon now, IMO. Which is totally understandable. (though I am sure when it happens, she will feel bad about it, just like Damon felt horrible about what he did right after doing it and seeing Elena on the floor holding Jeremy...)

He said "SOME of your wall of hatred", so he is fully aware that is not all gone and is not that easy to go... That is also why he is never asking her "Can we be friends now?" rather he is showing her how remoserful he is and asking her if she saw it within herself to one day forgive him, whether there was a chance their friendship was not lost 'forever'.

Damon does do frienships, he just doesn't like to say he doesn't. When Elena asked him if they were now friends with Alaric he denied it, saying he has no friends and Elena gave him the "yeah, right" look for she knew that wasn't true. For SHE was his friend. Which he ended up admitting to later on himself. And if Damon didn't do friendships, he wouldn't be trying to "win back" one.


Anyway, I think as you said, we will have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. The upcoming episodes will probably shed more light on it....

annablake

Really liked the ep. Any episode with a lot of Damon/Elena interaction gets a plus in my book.

The good:

* Finally I'm starting to feel Damon. When he lays off the pining-for-Katherine/love's fool-persona a little and is more sarcastic/playful/different shades of gray I like him more. Loved how his focus this ep seemed to be on losing Elena's friendship, not pining for her unrequited ~love~ or whatever. Starting to really feel the chemistry between those two. Great banter. Still you could feel the sense of hurt and betrayal on Elena's part and desperation on Damon's beneath it all. LOVED that he told her the truth at the end and that she didn't give him a free-pass. Now he really has work for it. Don't buy for a minute that he has indeed lost her forever but this is great, great angst. Brilliant, show.

* Loved how Damon took that arrow for Elena.

* Love Caroline. Prefer her "neurotic control-freak" over ~perfect Stefan~ anyday. They do have some great scenes together though. They could be interesting as a couple... But would the writers ever dare go there? Doubt it. (But I'd love it if they indeed did.)

* The way Caroline broke up with Matt... She tried to save him from her.

* Katherine is back!

The bad:

* Did Caroline ever wore this much make-up as a human? All that mascara/eyeliner is almost distracting in some scenes.

* I can't stand Jenna. I wish I understood what Alarik sees in her.

* I wish I cared more for the Lockwoods and their werewolf activities. For being a bad guy Taylor really isn't that interesting.

* LOL. As a human Stefan "cared deeply for people" and if they were hurting he felt their pain bla bla - and now as a vampire even MORE so. We get it. He is SAINT Stefan. Lol, doesn't the man have any negative traits? I wish the depiction of Stefan/Damon wasn't so black and white. Both a bit grayer would have been a lot more interesting imho.

*OldHollywoodStarlet*

I think I finally found a formula that fits well with me when it comes to reviewing which I'm glad about because I want to do it more.

The Bad
- Didn't like Damon. His attitude on the road trip. How in a sense he was trying to buy his way back into Elena's life.
- Elena kissing Stefan in from of Damon. It felt petty and done totally for the wrong reasons. I don't want Stefan to be used in that way, to get back at Damon.
- Matt is one of my favorite characters, but I wasn't happy in how he treated Caroline. The way he acted about the girl flirty with him and how he doesn't want drama in his life. I get it to a degree, but it's life and it's going to happen Caroline can't be sunshine and roses all the time to make his life have no drama. There are two people in the relationship. What is he doing for her? Again I can't stress enough that I love him, but he did rub me the wrong way this episode.

Neutral/Okay
- The whole werewolves story line. I find it neither boring nor exciting.
- I LOVE Bonnie, but I wasn't happy with her attitude this episode with regard to Caroline. I understand her stance against vampires, but the attitude rubs me wrong. I just don't know how I feel about it. She sort of become a plot device. They need to explore her character more.

The Good
-ALL of the Stefan and Caroline scenes. These two have wonderful chemistry and I just want them to become close friends/bond. Am I against any romance between them? No I don't think I would, but of right now I don't want to see that with how in-tangle the other triangle is. Also I don't want this friendship to be ruined. I want built up. I love that Caroline was able to make Stefan laugh and how relaxed he is around her. I love how Stefan is with Caroline too.
-Elena's attitude towards Damon. I feel like finally she isn't forgetting what Damon has done and isn't forgiving him so easily. She's putting her foot down and I hope she continues this. I'm sure at one point she will forgive him, but I hope it's actually earned.
- The Stefan and Bonnie scene. It spoke volume of understanding and respect. I loved that in the end no matter how she feels about vampire she does trust Stefan to a degree.
- The Alaric/Jenna kiss! I was so HAPPY when that happen. Please show explore them more. Also "Yay" for Alaric being back!

quin0611

The Good
Damon
Stefan & Caroline
Stefan & Elena
Katherine
Damon & Alaric

Netural
Alaric & Jenna

The Bad
The Werewolf Storyline isn't as good thought it would be.
Uncle Mason does nothing for me boring
Bonnie & Caroline i wanted Bonnie to be nicer
Matt & Carloine Breakup (I ship them)
Stefan is the The Saint in every eppy ( He's not a 100 percent perfect) Damon is always the devil unworthyof love (Damon is no angel by any means but give him a break once in a while)

wigbee71583

I think Elena did want to cause Damon some amount of pain that is why she makes out with Stefan right in front of Damon. It makes perfect sense. She is a teenager and she struck back in an immature way. I don't think Elena purposefully went on the trip to manipulate his feelings for her. However once she saw that Damon had something on Katherine that she needed, she stopped caring about the feelings of the guy who just snapped her brother's neck. When she asked Damon if he really saw the ring, you could see that a small part of her needed to believe he did. By being truthful Damon crushed Elena. You could see the light just go out of her eyes. I think her telling him that they could never be friends was to hurt him in some small way that he hurt her by being honest about the ring. She found his weak spot and went for it. I don't think Elena had some master plan on this trip, she just took opportunities that presented themselves. Opportunities that she wouldn't have taken, if her trust in Damon hadn't been damaged with breaking Jeremy's neck. Plus, how horrible would it be to hear the only reason he snapped Jeremy's neck was because he was drunk and lost control. If Jeremy wasn't wearing that ring, that means her brother would have died because Damon was hurting because of Elena/Katherine's rejection and he wanted to make someone hurt as badly as he was hurting. Damon broke her trust with that move. The ring has nothing to do with it. It was his betrayal of their friendship. He knows what Jeremy means to her. Also, if Elena were really like Katherine she could have strung him along and made him believe that their friendship could be repaired. She was truthful and told him that the friendship they enjoyed last year was done and buried. Maybe they can rebuild something better or maybe they can't.

Stay to the Lights

I think to Elena (and also to myself) whether or not he saw the ring wasn't the point. He did what he did and that is unforgiveable.
Would she forgive him IF he was telling the truth when he said he saw the ring? I very much doubt it.
The fact that he snapped her brother's neck was a henious act in itself and shouldn't be forgiven. So what Jeremy came back alive. Does that really factor into her decision? I wouldn't think so.
I think Elena had every right to do what she did to get the information. She knew she could never go back to being friends with Damon. She didn't tell him that sure, but she never led him on into thinking things would go back to the way he would had liked.
Did he really think after what he did it would even be possible? That's a lame move on his part.

I admired Elena for how she acted in this episode. She didn't back down from her hatred or betrayal. She didn't forgive at all. She only went on the trip for her own reasons and she wasn't going to let the fact Damon was tagging along interrupt her mission to get the information she was after.
She played Damon at his own game. He deserved it to be honest. I hope he comes out of this with a lesson learnt. Sometimes your actions DO have consequences, and ones you probably won't like.

I loved the interactions between Stefan & Caroline. I'm glad to see the way Stefan is mentoring her with becoming a vampire and how to hunt and such. It was nice to see that he can make an impact on her, i think for him.. its a way to make up for what he couldn't do back in the Vicki situation last season.
He felt guilty he couldn't save her... so he is saving caroline instead. No matter what he has to do.

It was very courageous of Caroline to do what she did in the end, making Matt break up with her that way.
She made him think she was a bitch with these insecurities.. even though thats a little true. But she was doing it to save him, and that takes alot of guts on her part, as it shows she doesn't want to hurt him, and cares for him too much to let anything like that happen to him.
I feel Caroline is becoming more independant as a person (undead) once she became a vampire.
She is becoming stronger as she grows. My brother also noticed this as well.. it makes her more attractive the way she is taking charge and becoming into her own. Stefan helping her is just a bonus.
I loved Caroline before, but now.. she is becoming one of my favourite characters.

I have decided that, during the time when Stefan isn't able to be with Elena.. I would not be too depressed if Stefan and Caroline get together. Even if it is a temporary thing. (Because obviously, all roads lead back to SE for me )
Speaking of Stefan&Elena -- They may only had a few scenes in the beginning of the episode, but they were adorable. I loved their kisses and their ILY.

Bonnie..
I can understand where she herself is coming from, but she needs to see that her friend is still in Caroline's body and its not just the vampire. I know she hasn't had the best luck when it comes to good vampires, as she really only has seen Stefan, so i imagine it will take some time for her to get used to this idea and understand that.. she can't go killing vampires if they arent up to her liking.

Tyler/Mason.
I really loved where the writers are going with this storyline. I felt for Mason when he was tying himself up, and then had to run because Tyler and Amy were coming and so he had to find somewhere he go.
And then Tyler's expression when he found out that his Uncle is a werewolf. It definitely is going to give him so food for thought and ask questions.
I think this is the beginning of the ice berg.

LondonTown89

I adore my Caro with or without make up. Personally, I'm more into the natural look for Caro. But i do think they trying to seperate the human and vamp Caro with make up which i find interesting since Katherine hardly wears make up and she's still fierce as

Maybe it's the hair


I just think that the bedroom scene with Stefan and Bonnie, it was a tad much. But still stunning

Alexa

Matt trying to get a hold of Caroline and her not being able to go out was really sad. But then he was acting like a jerk. I was glad when he forgave her though. The makeout was hot. I cant believe she bit him that was crazy!!! Caroline getting “crazy” on Matt so he’d break up with her… UGH that was hard to watch but understandable.

Did Jenna ever confront Elena about the Damon kiss? I can’t remember. The kiss with Alaric at the end was great though! YAY! They are cute.

Elena kissing Stefan like that in front of Damon was a bit strange to me. Almost like she was trying to make him jealous.

D/E/A YASSSS. It was really cool seeing them learn the truth about all the werewolf stuff.

The Tyler stuff really bores me, I wanted a break from all that crap for a little while! However, when Mason turned that was pretty interesting I guess. I’m glad the storyline is progressing.

Stefan convincing Bonnie to get another ring for Caroline was so sweet and I love Stefan’s faith in her. Bonnie annoyed me not saying she could trust Caroline. I thought Bonnie was too harsh on her, Caroline was just turned. But all the witchy stuff with Bonnie almost seemed too fast. How is she so smart.

DAMON SAVING ELENA HECK YES I LOVED THAT. I also loved him telling her to pull the arrow out of him. And Damons, “that bitch is dead!” Damon giving Elena the info on Katherine was great and sweet, because he wanted to be a friends again. I love that he said it would suck if he lost her forever but he really needed to explain more about what he was thinking.

Candice looked amazing this episode! Stefan/Caroline scenes were just the best in the episode by far, their chemistry is ridiculous and the little friendship they have going is so great. I loved her rant and him laughing at her and helping her. UGH cuteness overload. When she teased him about being too serious, wow there was definite sparks there. And then the laughing later. I cant take them. Stefan telling Caroline he’d wait. UMMM FORESHADOWING OKAY. And of course the ending scene where he saved her <3.

The guest star in the episode at the college was really cute, I liked her a lot.

The ending DE scene… . Ashes and Wine <3. Damon telling Elena that he snapped and he didn’t know Jeremy was wearing the ring, and that he doesn’t now what he would have done if her wasn’t wearing it… ugh that was hard to hear and I was glad he was honest but it sucked. I hated that the writers wrote it that way! Elena has every right to be upset.

THE ENDING KAT/CARE SCENE.