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Old 04-08-2011, 02:48 PM
  #121
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Wowsa, what a jam packed episode. I read an EW review in work before I actually watched it and I don't know... I think it sounded better on paper. I still loved it though for the most part. I honestly can't keep up with all the backstabbing in the episode though.

Elena is still safe but for how long?... Same old, same old. I did love her scenes with Jenna, Isobel and John though. Especially John. I would actually love to see him stick around if I'm honest. At least survive the season anyways. I love Uncle/Daddy Snark! Anyone else thinks Mia Kirshner's line reading was off. She damn right sucked in my opinion. It's a shame because I love the character, loved the emotions, the friendship with Katherine etc, it was all there ready to be awesome yet Kirshner just sucked the life out of it completely. I loved the story, I just thought it failed in execution a little. Also, setting yourself on fire in front of your kid? Nice.

I actually liked Damon tonight. Yes the soapdish was a major mess up but he was on top of his game tonight apart from that. He was snarky, funny and all the things I love but best of all - no Elena pining, no longing looks, no emotional, existential life crisis and no woobying. It was awesome.

So Bonnie is going to sacrifice herself and Jeremy is making a big deal out of it? She's totally going to be fine, it would be too obvious any other way. I don't know how I feel about Jeremy and Bonnie. I mean they're cute and sometimes I love them but then sometimes I'm sort of indifferent. I think I preferred his storyline with Anna last year. The two actors have nice chemistry but it's not electric or anything (imo obviously ). They don't sizzle and their characters, while nice together, don't have that fun back and forth that I usually like. I sometimes feel like McQueen is trying to make it more intense but Graham just can't react to it.

I get the whole Matt/Liz reaction... but I still wish I didn't have to watch Matt. Honestly I'm not mad that he told her mother, I don't hold it against him for not trusting her, it's sad that he feels all alone... I.just.don't.care! Plus damn him for making me want to skip Caroline scenes. Her chasing him all over town (understandable), telling Stefan and Elena that he was ~supposed to take it better because he loves her (or whatever it was) and then telling him how much she loves him etc while he just looks at her with disgust... Gah, I just wish that she'd open her eyes and see that the big romantic version of Matt she seems to always have built up in her head barely accepted her in human form, he was never going to accept her as an undead vampire. Just open your eyes Caroline and get over Matt!

Jenna finally got to react and Sara Canning finally got to act. I thought that she was great. I'm excited to see her get more involved in things. How much does she know exactly?

Poor Alaric! I'm even more sad because if he's dead/undead (which I think he is) then he and Jenna never got to even say goodbye. Actually I don't care that much but it is kind of sad. I can't believe he's posessed. Eeeek, cannot wait to see where this goes.

Katherine... rocks!
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:14 PM
  #122
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John did abandon Elena and was absent or not someone she liked during her childhood... but compare with someone who killed her brother?!!! IDK I feel like it pales in comparison since I do think John had pretty good reasons and Damon was just being his usual melodramatic, emotional self.
That's a problem. Elena was building a friendship of sorts with Damon before that happened. She already trusted him in some ways, and really wanted to help him if for no other reason than Stefan. Whereas she's spent her life hating John and he hasn't done much since her parents death to make her change her opinion of him, or even want to. She has no incentive to like or trust John, or to give him the benefit of the doubt. ('Course she will now...)

But it's true. If she can forgive Damon for killing Jeremy then she ought to be able to forgive John for trying to kill Stefan/Damon.

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But who's talking about honesty points here?
Well, in one of your posts you wrote:

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What if John has never mentioned Isobel to Jenna at all. You don't think Jenna would have been shocked and crushed to learn about her being alive and having been lied to this whole time by people she love, which Elena and Alaric admitted to?
It seemed like we were going down the road of giving John the benefit of the doubt regarding honorable intentions.

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My view and that's what I feel have been told on screen, is that he wanted the ring back and he wasn't above emotionally blackmailing Alaric. From John's POV, even if he wasn't jealous of Alaric, he would attack Alaric's soft spots anyway - and it would still have been Jenna.
....We're splitting hairs. For you the most obvious tactic was Jenna through Isobel. For me, the ring offered up justification of sorts for a petty move designed to benefit no one but himself since there were other things to target. I get that he had a goal (the ring) I'm just saying he did it in a very John Gilbert way. Like Damon snapping Jeremy's neck. His goal was to hurt Elena and he had a lot of options including physically hurting Elena. But he chose the very worst thing he could do to her. And like you said: that was just Damon being Damon. John was just being John about everything.

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Like I said, John picked Alaric's soft spot. What else what he supposed to use?
That's what I was talking about regarding the council and the deed. John knows a lot and can talk a lot; same issue with the deed. He technically owns that house and could make a good case for guardianship if he wanted to. And every believes he's enough of a bastard to do something like that. Whether he would, I dunno, but no way does John not realize that Alaric cares about Elena and Jeremy and loves Jenna. He can lay down a realistic threat without having to actually involve Jenna, then apply pressure as needed. That provides incentive. Honestly, why should Alaric have given up the ring after John kicked up the dust? By that point John had so thoroughly screwed things over that the only explanation Alaric could offer - a vague, non-explanation - would not be enough for her. Especially once Isobel showed up and I still say he knew about that.

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How do you know she didn't contact him after Elena wouldn't let her in? And then, he let her and got Elena to come down? Why would he then still need to be surprised? If John was aware of Isobel being in town, then why didn't he arrange for a meeting first over Isobel just appearing on the doorstep?
Because, imo, Isobel's 'unexpected' visit accomplished exactly what it was meant to. Jenna runs from the house to Alaric's 'cause she doesn't want to stay under the same roof as John. It's not a huge leap to assume she'd lodge elsewhere after finding out she's been sleeping with a married man who lied and said his wife was dead (with confirmation from her niece) and that everyone but her knew that was a lie. When said wife shows up on her doorstep. While John is hanging around the house. Hell, I'd run too.

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Why? If John gave Jeremy the ring that meant losing one himself.
But that's just what loving someone means. Elena and Bonnie and Caroline have each other's backs; because they are good people who love each other. That's just what you do.

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How do we know she was playing Katherine from the beginning? We know Isobel was playing both Katherine and John because she was compelled by Klaus. And in addition, just because she was under compulsion, she can still be truthful. If you are talking about John and Isobel working together before, how do we know Isobel wasn't actually playing John before and working with Katherine?
What I meant by 'from the beginning' was when she started helping Katherine get out of the tomb. Like you I assume that a compulsion doesn't eliminate the capacity for truthfulness. I think Isobel was manipulating Katherine purely, even though she did care for her and didn't want to betray her. I think Isobel was more honest in her dealings with John; not to say I think she told him about the compulsion or her taking Elena. But I do think she was giving John his marching orders (like he said to Katherine "she's busy. She sent me instead") and a lot of that involved moving John into a good position to protect Elena. Schumiac's theory about the ring makes some sense. If that ring had to come off then Isobel knew when she went back to Mystic Falls. Based on who she was working with - John and Katherine - I say John was the only one she was 'really' working with.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:02 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by UNsweetT (View Post)
[B]Nothing says "I Love You" as much as "Here's the deed to our house...we're giving it to you, Elena. All you have to do is sign." ....LOL The Salvatore brothers give the best gifts. lol
I really liked that. Besides the house is so beautiful. I want one


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Originally Posted by Chastidy (View Post)
So Bonnie is going to sacrifice herself and Jeremy is making a big deal out of it? She's totally going to be fine, it would be too obvious any other way. I don't know how I feel about Jeremy and Bonnie. I mean they're cute and sometimes I love them but then sometimes I'm sort of indifferent. I think I preferred his storyline with Anna last year. The two actors have nice chemistry but it's not electric or anything (imo obviously ). They don't sizzle and their characters, while nice together, don't have that fun back and forth that I usually like. I sometimes feel like McQueen is trying to make it more intense but Graham just can't react to it.
I agree. It's not that I don't like them, I do. It's just that the chemistry is not there. They have chemistry but it's not enough to play this big romantic storyline.

I loved them in the beginning of their relationship but now I'm just indifferent.


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Gah, I just wish that she'd open her eyes and see that the big romantic version of Matt she seems to always have built up in her head barely accepted her in human form, he was never going to accept her as an undead vampire. Just open your eyes Caroline and get over Matt!
I think Caroline wants to hold on to her human life and Matt represents that. The problem is that she needs to wake and realize what's in front of her.
I just want her to accept the fact that she's a vampire now and that's going to have consequences. She can't have the exact same life she had before.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:13 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Black_Betty (View Post)
That's a problem. Elena was building a friendship of sorts with Damon before that happened. She already trusted him in some ways, and really wanted to help him if for no other reason than Stefan. Whereas she's spent her life hating John and he hasn't done much since her parents death to make her change her opinion of him, or even want to. She has no incentive to like or trust John, or to give him the benefit of the doubt. ('Course she will now...)
YMMV, but I think it's way harder to rebuild trust after something as tragic as seeing your friend kill your brother! Killing some is NOT the same as just being a general jerk! I don't want to start a Damon did this and that list, but Damon has done a lot of horrible things that don't even compare to anything John has done.

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But it's true. If she can forgive Damon for killing Jeremy then she ought to be able to forgive John for trying to kill Stefan/Damon.
Yes. And frankly, I still don't understand Elena on this issue. John has plenty of reasons to want to kill them - no matter how much Stefan has redeemed himself, it does not erase his past sins, and it does not change that he could lose control at any time. Any parent would be worried. TVD has given us plenty of "good" vampires, but they still drink human blood even if there are few who don't.

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Well, in one of your posts you wrote:
I did, but I never argued that John was being 100% honest or 100% altruistic. I am arguing against that it is John's fault that Jenna and Alaric got hurt which was your original point.

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It seemed like we were going down the road of giving John the benefit of the doubt regarding honorable intentions.
Not at all. Yes, I do believe that his ultimate goal is to protect his daughter. But you can argue if getting the ring back is an honourable goal. You want to use the ring as justification for him needling Alaric, while I believe it was simply a mean.

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....We're splitting hairs. For you the most obvious tactic was Jenna through Isobel. For me, the ring offered up justification of sorts for a petty move designed to benefit no one but himself since there were other things to target. I get that he had a goal (the ring) I'm just saying he did it in a very John Gilbert way. Like Damon snapping Jeremy's neck. His goal was to hurt Elena and he had a lot of options including physically hurting Elena. But he chose the very worst thing he could do to her. And like you said: that was just Damon being Damon. John was just being John about everything.
I don't agree that we are splitting hairs, because there is a fundamental difference. It is the goal or just the mean? If you believe that John is the kind of a person who thinks hurting Jenna/Alaric is more important than getting back a protective ring, then we'll never agree on this issue. Again, snapping someone's neck is not the same as saying some hurtful comments. Not even close.

Quote:
That's what I was talking about regarding the council and the deed. John knows a lot and can talk a lot; same issue with the deed. He technically owns that house and could make a good case for guardianship if he wanted to. And every believes he's enough of a bastard to do something like that. Whether he would, I dunno, but no way does John not realize that Alaric cares about Elena and Jeremy and loves Jenna. He can lay down a realistic threat without having to actually involve Jenna, then apply pressure as needed. That provides incentive. Honestly, why should Alaric have given up the ring after John kicked up the dust? By that point John had so thoroughly screwed things over that the only explanation Alaric could offer - a vague, non-explanation - would not be enough for her. Especially once Isobel showed up and I still say he knew about that.
I don't see how John could use the kids against Alaric. First of all, both Elena and Jeremy are too old for John to make a real case for guardianship. It would also take too long. But most importantly, your argument implied that Alaric cares more about Elena/Jeremy than Jenna. It doesn't matter if John had said anything about Isobel and it doesn't matter if he knew she was coming or not (though I disagree that he did). Isobel decided to reveal herself and Isobel said those comments that revealed Elena (and Alaric) knew about Isobel and that was what Jenna got hurt over. She was hurt because they lied, not because of John's insinuations/lies. Jenna doesn't even care about what John thinks.

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Because, imo, Isobel's 'unexpected' visit accomplished exactly what it was meant to. Jenna runs from the house to Alaric's 'cause she doesn't want to stay under the same roof as John. It's not a huge leap to assume she'd lodge elsewhere after finding out she's been sleeping with a married man who lied and said his wife was dead (with confirmation from her niece) and that everyone but her knew that was a lie. When said wife shows up on her doorstep. While John is hanging around the house. Hell, I'd run too.
I don't know what you are talking about. Jenna did not say anything about John at all when she left. She was pissed at Elena and Alaric - and she needed space because she had a thesis. I think you are jumping to conclusion if you think Jenna ran from the house because of John. And what do you mean with Jenna running to Alaric's? She went to stay at campus.

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But that's just what loving someone means. Elena and Bonnie and Caroline have each other's backs; because they are good people who love each other. That's just what you do.
And yet, you are arguing that John would value hurting Jenna more than getting the ring back. Besides, my point was that John is selfless enough to give his nephew a protective ring at the expense of his own life, clearly shows that he cares a lot about his family. BUT it is not a given. John can still "have Jeremy's back" by keeping the ring to himself as he is actually more at risk when he continues to challenge to Salvatores.

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What I meant by 'from the beginning' was when she started helping Katherine get out of the tomb. Like you I assume that a compulsion doesn't eliminate the capacity for truthfulness. I think Isobel was manipulating Katherine purely, even though she did care for her and didn't want to betray her. I think Isobel was more honest in her dealings with John; not to say I think she told him about the compulsion or her taking Elena. But I do think she was giving John his marching orders (like he said to Katherine "she's busy. She sent me instead") and a lot of that involved moving John into a good position to protect Elena. Schumiac's theory about the ring makes some sense. If that ring had to come off then Isobel knew when she went back to Mystic Falls. Based on who she was working with - John and Katherine - I say John was the only one she was 'really' working with.
But how does this prove that Isobel was lying about why she showed up at the Gilbert place (specifically, and not just Mystic Falls)? If she wasn't lying - and what reasons would she have to lie about this issue (her jealousy) - then she admitted to Katherine that she decided to show up on their doorstep out of pettiness. And whether John knew about it or not, doesn't matter and he has no influence over Isobel anyway. Your inference is that just because John and Isobel worked together, John could tell Isobel when to show in Mystic Falls and where, and he did it just to hurt Jenna and Alaric and Isobel just went along it. I don't know what Schumiac's theory is and we usually disagree on everything anyway.

We are obviously just going around in circles at this point, so I'll just end my side of it in this post.
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:59 PM
  #125
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A good episode to come back to. I liked it. Two story lines that I especially love in this episodes are: 1) Bonnie's 2) Matt's. It's about time these two get it and I love how they will play parts in the vamps' stories. I was moved with the Jeremy/Bonnie scenes. I understand both sides and I just couldn't take sides. It's tormenting for both of them. Same goes with Caroline and Matt. I know some people may think Mat''s just an ass for doing that but it's only this time that he's figuring out what really happened to his sister and that one is tormenting enough. He'll get around, I think. He just needs time.

I'm also liking Alaric aka Klaus SL now. It's a good thing because as what Lynn said, he's becoming more of a disposable character than an important one. For now, he's safe.

Ah Damon and the soap box, I don't know, I think it's not really a good hiding spot specially if Katherine is living in the house and is free to roam around.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:47 AM
  #126
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Do they have reason to? It's not a traditional part of witch mythology that spells are costly. Bonnie's chosen to keep that a secret. Bonnie can't be heralded as a tough, self-sufficient martyr Buffy-type and also decried as underappreciated. Either she chooses to share info or she chooses to go it alone, unfortunately. It's not the fault of the others for assuming that if there was life-threatening info they needed to know then Bonnie would tell them. IMO, given that these people rarely get any breathing room before the next crisis pops up it might be a little dangerous to have a witch who constantly gives the impression she can do brain-hurt spells, and stuff like that, in a heartbeat with no problems when the reality is that she does have her limits and those limits could kill her. She's giving them the illusion of a safety net. It'd be like Damon or Stefan implying they're stronger than they are, when in fact too much exertion would kill them. It's walking a line, imo.
It's not like they never saw that doing spells was costly, actually. Bonnie and Sheila both tried to lift the tomb spell which cost Sheila's life. She died doing that spell. Everyone knows that. And although Bonnie said she was a lot stronger the second time, Stefan even witnessed Bonnie passing out while bleeding from her nose when she tried to lift the tomb spell for Jeremy, but for some reason he never mentions it again. So, yes, I think they do have a reason to ask at least.
But I didn't mean this comment as a "poor Bonnie is so underappreciated" kind. I just think that the Salvatores have a tendency to take the easy route. Of course you can say that Bonnie should tell them, but I could also assume that Stefan, who's supposedly so empathetic, would ask Bonnie about what happened at the tomb that night, wouldn't he?
Just like with the moonstone, which would have been much safer in a different location other than the Salvatore house (Alaric's house, for example, or Bonnie's) where Katherine walks around FREELY. They know that she has a tendency to steal things and betray them, and yet they chose to believe she wouldn't find the moonstone. They took the easy way and it came to bite them in the ass. It could have gone well, but it also could have gone a lot better had they put more thought into it. For example, Katherine's hiding place for the moonstone was extraordinarily good, wasn't it? At least she put in some effort to guard it against vampires.
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Old 04-10-2011, 02:03 PM
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For example, Katherine's hiding place for the moonstone was extraordinarily good, wasn't it?
Do you mean Mason w/ the well?
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Old 04-10-2011, 04:51 PM
  #128
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How was Jenna finding the truth out about Isobel Uncle John's fault?! Um, yeah because he was the one doing all the lying
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:29 PM
  #129
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Do you mean Mason w/ the well?
Yes, I meant Mason Think one thing, write another
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:12 PM
  #130
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The episode was okay.

Isobel came back, just to die I liked her, especially because she actually cared about her daughter. I'm glad that Isobel got to see Alaric one last time I do wonder though, was so compelled to kill herself? Or did she do it because she felt bad for giving away the two things she loved most: Alaric and Elena. It's pretty scary considering Isobel knew so much history about Mystic Falls and she was able to get in touch with Klaus, who in turn, compelled her to betray Katherine and everything This man is powerful!

Speaking of Klaus, Alaric . Though, I have to admit, Matt Davis = so freaking sexy in the last scene And the way he said Katerine Katherine looked so scared, I'm scared for her.

Glad Elena lives at the Salvatores now! I think Jeremy and Jenna and even John should move too, just to be safe. However, I wonder now, Elijah's already been invited in, but he's ''dead'', but he's still been invited in

Elena's lost both her parents, and now Isobel I hope she doesn't lost more family It's heartbreaking.

Nothing else really interested me. Oh, Sheriff and Matt They are on dangerous grounds!

Next week looks great! I'm looking forward to it very much!

OH! I forgot to add:

Julie Plec said we'd find out why Elena isn't wearing her vervain necklace anymore. Katherine took it, but at the end, she wasn't wearing it either. I hope the necklace is returned to Elena ...Isobel wore a necklace to protect herself from the sun, Katherine wore a necklace too? What was she wearing when she was wearing Elena's necklace instead? Well now, she can't escape Klaus, I'm sure if Klaus took off her vervain necklace, he also took off whatever would protect her from the sun.
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:09 AM
  #131
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Julie Plec said we'd find out why Elena isn't wearing her vervain necklace anymore. Katherine took it, but at the end, she wasn't wearing it either. I hope the necklace is returned to Elena ...Isobel wore a necklace to protect herself from the sun, Katherine wore a necklace too? What was she wearing when she was wearing Elena's necklace instead? Well now, she can't escape Klaus, I'm sure if Klaus took off her vervain necklace, he also took off whatever would protect her from the sun.
i was wondering about that necklace too. i wonder if klaus's body was in that apartment or house that katherine and that witch were at??
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:25 PM
  #132
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I was so glad Matt found out the truth... It just sucks they never gave MC a proper chance and that he is teaming up with Liz against her. I don't necessarily blame him for feeling betrayed though.

I was glad Isobel came back but I hate that they brought her back just to kill her. And Elena had to watch it...

I did like the tiny Stefan/Caroline scenes and Damon/Bonnie scenes.

All in all the episode was kind of bland though. This season has been pretty blah. It was better than some of the past ones though, if only for Katherine tbh.
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