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Old 11-11-2010, 09:28 AM
  #31
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So, let me get this straight...

Santana treats guys like dirt: Okay.
Puck treats girls like dirt: OMG MISOGYNY SEXISM EVIL AIIIEEEEE

Nope, no double standard there.

Take a look at the stuff Santana has done. She endlessly mocks Kurt's sexuality without repercussions, despite the blatant hypocrisy. She insults boys and attacks girls. She seduced Finn and walked away without a second glance. She casually dumped Puck over his credit score and continually treats him like he's her property, getting angry when other girls get too close, then losing interest again. "Rover! Get away from lady! Here, boy! Come here! That's right! Good doggie! Now stop bothering me." Santana was perfectly in character; she always fawns over a guy to work him up. Afterwards, she yawns and looks around for her best friend.

And Brittany can be selfish as well. She nailed the emotionally fragile and physically child-like Artie simply to get back at Santana, then ditched him at the restaurant. In one memorable promo clip, Heather Morris showed off the thirty notches on Brittany's bed. Remember, a guy can be a girl's sexual conquest, too.

Brittany and Santana are promiscuous. So what? That alone doesn't make them anyone's victims. Just like Puck, they're outwardly tough and inwardly insecure. Personally, I appreciate the fact that they aren't depicted as fragile little snowflakes like Rachel and Emma. And I enjoy any episode with fewer songs and more screen time for the Cheerios, even if it means a less-than-ideal angst-ridden detour on their character development path towards romantic bliss with each other.
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Old 11-12-2010, 06:23 AM
  #32
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This thread number and thread title. I love it!!!

Anyway, how are you guys doing? It's been a long while since I dropped by
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:14 PM
  #33
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This thread has been so quiet lately

We need some Brittana lovin' in here

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Old 11-12-2010, 10:19 PM
  #34
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We need some Brittana loving period.
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Old 11-13-2010, 08:52 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migraine Boy (View Post)
So, let me get this straight...

Santana treats guys like dirt: Okay.
Puck treats girls like dirt: OMG MISOGYNY SEXISM EVIL AIIIEEEEE

Nope, no double standard there.

Take a look at the stuff Santana has done. She endlessly mocks Kurt's sexuality without repercussions, despite the blatant hypocrisy. She insults boys and attacks girls. She seduced Finn and walked away without a second glance. She casually dumped Puck over his credit score and continually treats him like he's her property, getting angry when other girls get too close, then losing interest again. "Rover! Get away from lady! Here, boy! Come here! That's right! Good doggie! Now stop bothering me." Santana was perfectly in character; she always fawns over a guy to work him up. Afterwards, she yawns and looks around for her best friend.

And Brittany can be selfish as well. She nailed the emotionally fragile and physically child-like Artie simply to get back at Santana, then ditched him at the restaurant. In one memorable promo clip, Heather Morris showed off the thirty notches on Brittany's bed. Remember, a guy can be a girl's sexual conquest, too.

Brittany and Santana are promiscuous. So what? That alone doesn't make them anyone's victims. Just like Puck, they're outwardly tough and inwardly insecure. Personally, I appreciate the fact that they aren't depicted as fragile little snowflakes like Rachel and Emma. And I enjoy any episode with fewer songs and more screen time for the Cheerios, even if it means a less-than-ideal angst-ridden detour on their character development path towards romantic bliss with each other.
So, you're saying that if girls are promiscuous, it's ok for boys to treat them like that? It's double standard here again because Puck sleeps around with girls and other people's mothers from his pool cleaning business, and people treats him like a stud.

It's saddening to see how the general public views this then because then the show brings a wrong message: guys sleep around - woah, stud! He's so macho.
Girls sleep around: Sluts, whore, no self-worth and self-respect.

Ok, I may not agree with you, but there are some things I agree with you is that in order for the show to fix this sexism issue, the writers need to explore further into Brittana's characters in why they have self esteem issue. I can't word this properly, so I'll leave this quote here that I get from someone from Tumblr. He/She had summarized everything up perfectly:

Quote:
1. “Fixing” Brittany and Santana’s promiscuity isn’t a solution to sexism in Glee. Fixing their self-esteem issues (and having them become self-advocates who refuse to accept ****ty behavior from anyone) is.
The fact that Santana and Brittany have the same attitudes towards sex that Puck has isn’t the issue. Having sex isn’t a bad thing. Having sex for the wrong reasons, not caring what kind of treatment they get so long as they get sex, is a bad thing.
The underlying issue that the writers fail to talk about or bring up is how these girls view themselves and their self-worth. If they need to learn anything, it’s that sometimes, you should say no, but not because sex is bad, but because it can and should mean something- whether that something is “I want to have fun” or “I am in love with you,” it should mean something to *them* and not just because a boy (or girl) wants it.
But that is separate from the sexism issue.
2. The sexism issue lies in the writers’ inability to call out the boys’ behavior as a problem. Because it reinforces blame the victim attitudes towards female sexuality as acceptable behavior.
People need to realize the difference between correlation and causation.* If a girl drinks beyond her limit and someone rapes her, there is a definite correlation, but it does not mean that one cause the other. Because not every drunk person gets raped. There are two separate choices being made here that aren’t cause and effect.
Example- taking sex out of the equation. If a person gets drunk and falls asleep on the couch and another person draws a dick on his face with a sharpie, person A was not asking for it. He was literally unable to because he was asleep. It was the choice of person B to do it.
Being “slutty” doesn’t mean that they deserve to bad treatment from boys, or anyone for that matter.**One person’s bad judgment does not negate someone else’s bad choices.*Because there is*always*a choice. All the time we make choices about everything. THAT determines who we are, what is good or bad behavior.
And that includes standing back and doing nothing while bad behavior happens, which brings me to:
3. Enabling is a choice.
“Don’t hate the player, hate the game” is complete and utter bull**** because no one ever hates the game.*If you really hated the game, you’d stop playing the game.*You just choose not to because it’s hard not to when everyone else is going along with it. Or because it’s easier to say they were asking for it.* Or because you’re just one person.
But you know what, Mother Theresa was just one person.* Hitler was one person. Einstein was one person. And Ryan Muphy is one person. Look at how many people the show has touched and tell me that one person doesn’t make a difference.
If this summer’s biggest film taught us anything it’s that the world’s worst parasite is an idea. And yes, some days it feels like you’re fighting a losing battle because you’re just one tiny drop against an ocean, but what is an ocean but a hundred billion ocean drops? All it takes is for many individuals to change their thinking and change can happen.
Bad behavior needs to be called out, and that’s why I have such problems with Glee. What isn’t said is just as important as what is being said, and some days I have to wonder if they realize how many bad attitudes they are reinforcing as much as they are subverting.
broken compasses and wanderlust — @miknge, ask reply
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:18 AM
  #36
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Going to go reblog that
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Old 11-14-2010, 04:05 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fetch (View Post)
Going to go reblog that
Yes, I've actually encountered two posters who said that Brittana had it coming to be treated badly by boys because of their attitude. If 2 posters think that, then there must be more fans who think that as well. And it's sad that the show is further reinforcing the general public's view through their show and sending out the wrong message.

The more people know about that wonderful person at Tumblr's message, the better, because that's the correct message to be sent out. It would be very disappointing if Glee never touch on this sexism issue and call the boys out for their behavior.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:10 AM
  #38
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Apparently Brittany 'taking' Artie's virginity is EXACTLY the same as Puck 'taking' Quinn's. Except Quinn was depressed and drunk and Artie wasn't. But, you know. Aside from that!
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:39 AM
  #39
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Miknge, that's an amazing post
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:48 PM
  #40
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Guys, I know I was optimistic in my last post...but i'm now getting worried about the Santana/Brittany storyline. Just go (if you want to read the spoiler i just read) to this site: Spoiler TV - The TV Spoiler Site, scroll down and read the "Glee-Latest from TVguide Magazine - 15th November 2010"...What do you guys think about this?
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:50 PM
  #41
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My theory, is...(you'll get this, if you read the spoiler)...the positive that could come from this is, a jealous Santana...which could lead back to the brittana storyline...That's what i'm holding on to!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amous05 (View Post)
Guys, I know I was optimistic in my last post...but i'm now getting worried about the Santana/Brittany storyline. Just go (if you want to read the spoiler i just read) to this site: Spoiler TV - The TV Spoiler Site, scroll down and read the "Glee-Latest from TVguide Magazine - 15th November 2010"...What do you guys think about this?
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:49 PM
  #42
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Oh, hey, I got a response after all. Cool. Let's see...

Quote:
So, you're saying that if girls are promiscuous, it's ok for boys to treat them like that?
Err ... no. Not even close. Where the heck did you get that? I'm saying it's not okay for anybody to treat anybody like dirt, but some people only seem to have a problem when it's a boy mistreating a girl.

Quote:
It's saddening to see how the general public views this then because then the show brings a wrong message: guys sleep around - woah, stud! He's so macho. Girls sleep around: Sluts, whore, no self-worth and self-respect.
Are we watching the same show? Because I don't think Glee is sending this message al all. The subtext I'm getting is: "Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to indulge in casual sex, go right ahead. It's your life. However, it may leave you feeling empty." Under their jaded demeanors, Puck, Brittany and Santana all seem forlorn and looking for true love. Ditto for Finn, Artie and Quinn after their sexual experiences. Where's the sexism in that? I don't see it.

Quote:
The underlying issue that the writers fail to talk about or bring up is how these girls view themselves and their self-worth.
I agree, but I'm sure the writers are working up to that. Character development doesn't happen overnight. And ditto for Puck.

Quote:
The sexism issue lies in the writers’ inability to call out the boys’ behavior as a problem.
But it's okay when girls are insensitive?

Quote:
Because it reinforces blame the victim attitudes towards female sexuality as acceptable behavior.
First, some girls like guys who are arrogant; they see it as a sign of masculinity and confidence. If you don't believe me, take a look at the number of Puck plus whoever threads on this board. Second, a "bad boy" isn't the same thing as a total scumbag, just like a "bad girl" doesn't equal a psychotic whore. I think the author is losing perspective.

Quote:
People need to realize the difference between correlation and causation.?* If a girl drinks beyond her limit and someone rapes her, there is a definite correlation, but it does not mean that one cause the other. Because not every drunk person gets raped. There are two separate choices being made here that aren’t cause and effect.
Example- taking sex out of the equation. If a person gets drunk and falls asleep on the couch and another person draws a dick on his face with a sharpie, person A was not asking for it. He was literally unable to because he was asleep. It was the choice of person B to do it.
Being “slutty” doesn’t mean that they deserve to bad treatment from boys, or anyone for that matter.?*?*One person’s bad judgment does not negate someone else’s bad choices.?*Because there is?*always?*a choice. All the time we make choices about everything. THAT determines who we are, what is good or bad behavior.
Yes, I agree. Having sex with a woman who's too drunk to say no is rape. Of course, lots of people get a little tipsy before getting laid. Is this about Quinn? Because I've seen no indication that she considers herself a rape victim. But if it's not about Quinn, why are we talking about this subject at all? Puck and Artie swagger around a little and suddenly we're discussing rape? How did we make that conversational leap? This sounds like an over-the-top attempt to push emotional buttons. What's next, Hitler?

Quote:
But you know what, Mother Theresa was just one person.?* Hitler was one person. Einstein was one person. And Ryan Muphy is one person. Look at how many people the show has touched and tell me that one person doesn’t make a difference.
Oh, look, Hitler!

Quote:
Bad behavior needs to be called out, and that’s why I have such problems with Glee. What isn’t said is just as important as what is being said, and some days I have to wonder if they realize how many bad attitudes they are reinforcing as much as they are subverting.
I agree that Glee is shaping a generation of viewers and has a solid responsibility to do that well. Unlike the author being quoted here, I think they're more or less doing their job. Yes, Puck is arrogant and aggressive and yes, it gets him sex partners, but it has also left him lonely and loveless. That's a depiction of selfishness, not an endorsement. And I don't see how it can be called sexist since Santana does the same thing. Both characters were created as insensitive, bullying anti-heroes that are slowly transforming into decent human beings, and neither walks around with a sign that says "Everything I say reflects the opinions of the writers."

Quote:
Apparently Brittany 'taking' Artie's virginity is EXACTLY the same as Puck 'taking' Quinn's. Except Quinn was depressed and drunk and Artie wasn't. But, you know. Aside from that!
I think Artie was quite a bit more depressed. He was mourning the loss of his girlfriend; Quinn just felt fat that day. And, no, it's not exactly the same. Puck used booze and far more peer pressure, so yes, he was a much bigger jerk than Brittany. Regardless, exploiting someone in an emotionally fragile state is insensitive.

Okay, final conclusion time. I think these complaints about sexism are misplaced. So two guys made a few obnoxious remarks. So what? On this show, obnoxious remarks fly fast and furious. I think the real reason B/S shippers are pissed at Puck and Artie is because they are obstacles, plain and simple. Television in general and Glee in particular already has plenty of boy-crazy girls. I don't think the writers are implying that drooling over males is a female's duty, but given the lack of hundred-percent-lesbian characters, I'm sure some frustrated viewers feel that's precisely what they're saying. There's the (unintentional) sexism: so far, the show has failed to reach out to gay women the way it's reached out to gay men.

Good talk, everybody.
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Old 11-15-2010, 07:00 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amous05 (View Post)
My theory, is...(you'll get this, if you read the spoiler)...the positive that could come from this is, a jealous Santana...which could lead back to the brittana storyline...That's what i'm holding on to!
Wow, you can still stay positive!

Tbqh I've gone from upset/mad to really sick of the show's treatment of Brittana. It looks like Brittana will never be taken seriously by RM
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:01 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haveuever (View Post)
Wow, you can still stay positive!

Tbqh I've gone from upset/mad to really sick of the show's treatment of Brittana. It looks like Brittana will never be taken seriously by RM
I'm trying to stay positive! ...this is what I don't understand, I thought there was a lot of buzz around the brittany/santana relationship. It was mentioned at comic con, fox released this glee season 2 Q&A (but it was only a snippet of the questions, the full in depth Q&A wasn't released) and one of the 5 or so questions they showed were "what's going on with brittany and santana?" I paraphrased that question, but regardless...there have been many interviews about it...ryan and the writers have talked about it. anyway, what I'm trying to say is, it seemed like Ryan murphy trys his best to work in what the fans want, but why would he all the sudden be like "brittany/santana relationship, not working, lets cut it?" Like, it just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I don't see this huge mass of "Brittany/artie" shippers making all this noise out there, so where is this coming from?

Let's say, we are looking at this all wrong, let's say the writers still have Brittana in mind: A positive theory for me would be...ok, ryan and the writers are trying to make this brittany/santana thing work, while still keeping in their mean girl/whatever-ness that they bring to the show. Maybe...by steering brittany into a brittany/artie story line, they could start to develope and make a more meaningful/realistic transition into a brittana storyline. After the duets episode, (and santanas freak out about the duet) it can't show them all the sudden being in love *insert mush here*, whatever. There needs to be a transition into that. Santana has shown that she cares for brittany, but (as i mentioned) in the duet episode seemed "panicked" when brittany brought up singing a romantic duet with her, and then jealous of brittany's time with artie. So, in order to extend on that story more, maybe the writers are thinking...what if brittany starts dating artie?...they can now start to develope the storyline that Sanatana IS jealous, and they could begin to show a different side to her...and show HER realizing that she really has feelings for brittany afterall...while brittany, still caring for santana, is with artie because he's probably the nicest most caring guy she's ever been with. But, it's not santana. Maybe this is a good developmental plot line for these two...

Or...Theory 2: The writers really have decided, okay, let's just drop this Brittana storyline all together.

But i just don't understand why they would? So far with Glee, I feel like there hasn't been a storyline brought up, that they have just dropped completely...i've always felt like they are very thorough and always have a direction in mind. I do think this season with the new characters, guests, etc...they are cramming too much into the show at times...so I'm hoping they will focus more on the original characters. But I don't know...

I think the best thing we can do...is to keep brittana alive! We need to make noise, and somehow get ryan murphy/the glee writers attention...we need to tell them we still want brittana!
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:27 PM
  #45
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Alright all...SPREAD THE WORD...on blogs, tumblr, any websites you can think of "Brittany/Santana" related. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Let's find out once and for all what is going on with the Brittana storyline.

GO to this link: Watch With Kristin - Television News, Gossip & Spoilers | E! Online

Then click on 'email kristin'...this little window should pop up where you write some info in, and then submit a question to Kristin...she is always answering peoples questions with some dish and insight into future episodes of Glee.

So, submit the questions multiple times, tell your friends to do it...whatever! THE MORE QUESTIONS SUBMITTED and the more people that submit questions, the more they will be noticed and hopefully answered. This is what I wrote:

Kristin, hearing some rumors that Brittany/Arties relationship will be blossoming more on Glee in future episodes, but what about us Brittany/Santana shippers? Can you give us any possible relationship dish on these two?

Write something along those lines. Let's find out once and for all! Maybe Kirsin can shed some light. We just need to keep the fire for them burning, and keep hope alive...
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