[shinebrighterxx]

They would've known as soon as we all found out though. That's what I meant. They all tweeted about the show airing, but nothing after it aired about how it ended. Unless none of them watched, but even still they would've found out how it ended surely


Did anyone else notice that this episode is called 'Daughters'? Not daughter, but daughters. That for me rang alarm bells in my head as soon as I saw it. Then reading the episode description I still wanted to know why it was a plural when Fornell only has one daughter so I wanted to know who the other daughter was the title was referring to. Now it seems likely that it meant Ziva as the team are Gibbs' family, but I do also wonder if it also means Kelly? Gibbs was being haunted by her memory & Diane brought her up. But for me at least reading it my first thought was did it mean Ziva would appear

[Jasper1975]

Yeah the initial idea behind the title would be Fornell's daughter Emily and Gibbs memory of his daughter, and what he did to avenge her and his wife as Fornell and Diane was daring him to go that route, and he tried to just find his own way to solve the crisis.

But the appearance of Ziva, and the fact she was a surrogate daughter to Gibbs... adds to the meaning.

And we still don't know what kind of danger Gibbs now is in. Is it because of the larger investigation to avenge Emily. Or something else.

[- eternal sunshine -]

This episode was well done and just when you think that it will leave you with no cliff hanger, it surprises you with one of the best cliff hangers. This one at least can make people happy, even if it does also leave lots of questions. I would love it if they could address Gibbs' mental state further, especially after implying he's hallucinating in this episode. In the past he has seen ghosts, but it was never explored if he actually was seeing them or not. Here we have had a lead up discussing his mental state, and now he is hallucinating, so it is probably the counsellor in me but I hope they continue that storyline instead of just ignoring it. The Ziva storyline is important but so is looking after your mental health. Gibbs has been getting better at that, but it would be wonderful to see the show tackling him dealing with whatever is going on further, while still trying to work.

Is it because of the larger investigation to avenge Emily. Or something else.

I cannot imagine it would have anything to do with the case from the finale? I would presume it more has something to do with the previous episodes where they were addressing Gibbs' killing Pedro Hernandez. If people are figuring that out, they may wish to take action against him, which would leave him in danger.

[maplezbear]

I never thought about the title of the episode and connecting it with Ziva... but that is so true.

And that is a good theory PurpleLily. Totally could have to do with what Gibbs had done.

[shinebrighterxx]

Yeah I presumed it'd have to do with his past over the case from this ep It felt like a new story to be explored to me, not extending this one

Maybe it was just me who saw the title & had hope

[Jasper1975]

Originally Posted by PurpleLily (View Post) This episode was well done and just when you think that it will leave you with no cliff hanger, it surprises you with one of the best cliff hangers. This one at least can make people happy, even if it does also leave lots of questions. I would love it if they could address Gibbs' mental state further, especially after implying he's hallucinating in this episode. In the past he has seen ghosts, but it was never explored if he actually was seeing them or not. Here we have had a lead up discussing his mental state, and now he is hallucinating, so it is probably the counsellor in me but I hope they continue that storyline instead of just ignoring it. The Ziva storyline is important but so is looking after your mental health. Gibbs has been getting better at that, but it would be wonderful to see the show tackling him dealing with whatever is going on further, while still trying to work.

Although with Gibbs, he has a knack of dreaming up old people from his past. Franks, now Diane and even Shannon to some extent, even Kelly... going back years...

Usually it's about how close he is to people or to the case. After all these years, they seemed to bringing it up more, why he saught out his old shrink to talk about his past. So, they might bring it up...

Or that is just Gibbs thing. He gets attached to people, and he has a hard time letting them go. Which is why his crisis over burning Rule 10 is stupid because ALL of them get over attached to the majority of their cases.

He's lost a lot of people who meant something to him... It seems the NCIS franchise has a habit with this kind of story. Look at NCIS: New Orleans LOL. That is more problematic than Gibbs...

Unless it does lead up to a issue, and he actually does crack, and that is his endgame? He has to retire, because he can't do it anymore...

I cannot imagine it would have anything to do with the case from the finale? I would presume it more has something to do with the previous episodes where they were addressing Gibbs' killing Pedro Hernandez. If people are figuring that out, they may wish to take action against him, which would leave him in danger.

It's just Sloan meationed that Gibbs might working a different angle in this case. He has his little book he's reading or writing in, so it might be a larger play he's doing...

And why Ziva has been brought out of hiding because she senses danger.

But we'll know more in September, but I am curious.

[shinebrighterxx]

I think the hallucination this time was different? Its hard to tell though since he's always been seeing the dead. It would be interesting if they could explore mental health more, but I don't know that they would?

[Summer Falls]

Originally Posted by shinebrighterxx (View Post) I think the hallucination this time was different? Its hard to tell though since he's always been seeing the dead. It would be interesting if they could explore mental health more, but I don't know that they would?

i hope they do cause it kind of reminds me of Bones the tv show and Booth hallucinating things and it end up being something more serious

[maplezbear]

That would be nice if they did explore that more Chelle

[- eternal sunshine -]

It felt like a new story to be explored to me, not extending this one

To me it was the previous episodes building up Gibbs' past which makes me feel that is more where the danger is coming from. So it is not entirely new, just extending what was being explored prior to being interrupted by Emily going to hospital.

It's just Sloan meationed that Gibbs might working a different angle in this case. He has his little book he's reading or writing in, so it might be a larger play he's doing...

Forgive me but I cannot remember the scene you are talking about at all. If he was working a different angle then it could be about this case. Perhaps this case, since it does involve drugs, is somehow connected to what Gibbs did in the past? Pedro Hernandez was a drug dealer, his daughter Paloma Reynosa was the head of the Reynosa Cartel too. Although that has since become inactive that doesn't mean that they can't become active again or at least target Gibbs. And in the television world anything is possible. It could be that these drugs are somehow coming from the Reynosa Cartel or a new group founded by past members. Those past members could hold a grudge against Gibbs, especially if they discover or know his involvement in the deaths of Pedro and Paloma, and the arrest of Paloma's brother Alejandro.

Although with Gibbs, he has a knack of dreaming up old people from his past. Franks, now Diane and even Shannon to some extent, even Kelly... going back years... Unless it does lead up to a issue, and he actually does crack, and that is his endgame? He has to retire, because he can't do it anymore...

He may have seen them before but as Chelle said, this time could have been different. Before they were more used as a way to tell the story they wanted to tell. This time they had another character (Fornell) acknowledging that Gibbs is actually hallucinating and having conversations with the hallucinations. We already know that he was having problems as he walked out on a case and was talking with Dr. Confalone. For the entire series, and prior to it, Gibbs has had unchecked problems. He lost the love of his life and his daughter and his revenge didn't ease that pain. He has had to walk around knowing what he's done and what he has lost. His grief then caused problems in at least his marriage with Diane if not his other marriages. He doesn't always connect with people or let them in but then each time he loses someone else it affects and changes him. Gibbs is basically walking around carrying the guilt and grief of at least the deaths of Shannon, Kelly, Kate, Jenny, and quite possibly Ziva. She wanted out and still got targeted so I am sure Gibbs still felt responsible for her and what happened. Which then caused him to lose Tony from his team too. It is beside the point that Ziva didn't actually die as as far as we know he didn't know that until the very end of this episode. All of that inside of him left unchecked is a concern and make him a danger in his job. It is already an issue which he needs to work through (and they appear to be addressing with Dr. Confalone) so that he doesn't crack. His hallucinating simply becomes a greater concern that he is closer to cracking and the pressure is too much. He may at least need to take time off to heal and work through his issues more. If he can work through it then there is no need for 'he has to retire because he can't do it anymore' - while if it remains ignored then realistically he will reach the point of being unable to do it.

However they could also be setting the show up to finish soon so all of these storylines, including bringing Ziva back, could all be leading up to the end.

[shinebrighterxx]

Originally Posted by PurpleLily Perhaps this case, since it does involve drugs, is somehow connected to what Gibbs did in the past?

there's an interesting thought ... although I have a feeling the drugs were coming from Canada? Or I'm imagining things...

Originally Posted by PurpleLily He may have seen them before but as Chelle said, this time could have been different. Before they were more used as a way to tell the story they wanted to tell. This time they had another character (Fornell) acknowledging that Gibbs is actually hallucinating and having conversations with the hallucinations.

That's what I get from it too & I get the wondering of if they'll extend upon it further. Yes Gibbs always is seeing ghosts or they use them to tell stories, but this was a lead up to a breakdown & now he was hallucinating & having a conversation with that hallucination. That's not healthy so in theory he should get help. This is Gibbs though & a television show...

Originally Posted by PurpleLily For the entire series, and prior to it, Gibbs has had unchecked problems. He doesn't always connect with people or let them in but then each time he loses someone else it affects and changes him. Gibbs is basically walking around carrying the guilt and grief of at least the deaths of Shannon, Kelly, Kate, Jenny, and quite possibly Ziva. Which then caused him to lose Tony from his team too. All of that inside of him left unchecked is a concern and make him a danger in his job. It is already an issue which he needs to work through (and they appear to be addressing with Dr. Confalone) so that he doesn't crack. His hallucinating simply becomes a greater concern that he is closer to cracking and the pressure is too much. He may at least need to take time off to heal and work through his issues more. If he can work through it then there is no need for 'he has to retire because he can't do it anymore' - while if it remains ignored then realistically he will reach the point of being unable to do it.

all the reason why its not wise to get into a conversation about the mental state of characters with you . You're very good at separating the counselor/psychology fan from the fangirl though, & you're also right when you do go & analyse Gibbs' character. You make good points, Gibbs holds a lot in & has been carrying around a lot of grief for a very long time. That changes & affects a person. Will they continue to explore it? I don't know. Somehow I feel if they do they won't go completely over all you covered but really if you look back at all he's been through it has all shaped him into who he is now... but I also think right now he's questioning if his choices have been right. He got rid of a rule because of that. He's confused I think as well as blaming himself

[maplezbear]

Great posts! Very good points about Gibbs and his problems.

[florerr]

I'm too lazy to read all of the discussion about the season finale. I'm just going to write my thoughts ( for now)...

I watched the episode a couple of days ago, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it...

On one hand we have the whole Fornell-Gibbs angle with the daughter (I don't remember her name) and the ex-wife hallucinations thrown in.

It's quite clear that Gibbs is on the verge of a major mental breakdown. With him (finally) disregarding Rule #10 he needs to deal with everything he kept pushing back up till now... Sure, it was hilarious to see Gibbs channeling the ex-wife to Fornell, but it must be handled in next season... Because in this episode Gibbs kept talking to the ex-wife even when others were around, he reminded me to Pride... Actually both of them should take some time of and talk things out with a psychologist (and possible with the team as well)... Though Gibbs is still more emotionally stable than Pride, at least he's already talking with someone...

Fornell & his daughter are still grieving, they just used different methods up till now. I'm glad that the girl survived the overdose and actually asked for help by the end of the episode.

Talking about the drug overdose, I had the feeling that we didn't figure out anything much about where it came from... Sure Gibbs mentioned drugs coming from Canada, but it was from his own notebook meaning that he has/had a side investigation going on who knows since when which is now connected to the Fornell-case... Knowing Gibbs I'd bet money on the drug somehow being related to the Pedro Hernandez case, but we'll only figure it out for sure in September...

Lastly, Ziva is back! We don't know how and why exactly, but Gibbs is in danger according to her...

So for next season we have at least 3 story-arch going on if they want to "fix" Gibbs as well, and that's not even thinking about the others...

[shinebrighterxx]

If you do read the posts there is a few discussing the mental stability of Gibbs & if it'll be or should be addressed in the next season

Emily (Fornell's daughter) surprised me but then I also get how she got where she was. She's grieving in her own way & really who could she turn to? Her dad was also grieving, Gibbs has his own problems & could probably report back to her dad... she'd be loss & just trying to live her life while dealing with her grief...

I'm on the fence about if the drugs are connected to Pedro Hernandez. Since they brought it all back up again I want to say yes, but then if the drugs are coming from Canada I feel like the answer is no. The cartel was in Mexico before - but nothing to say it hasn't moved to Canada or doesn't have a branch in both countries

[Jasper1975]

I am not sure if Gibbs is headed for a major breakdown since he's long seen dead people LOL. Since early on when he hasn't experienced as much loss as he has now... It seems to allow him to voice his thoughts...

OF course it might be his endgame. He finally retires because he can't handle the job anymore, but for some reason his visions seemed more grounded than whatever Pride is going through on New Orleans LOL.

So, I don't know if we're headed for a breakdown.

Bringing back Fornell and Emily was interesting because Emily was always pretty grounded and to know she's fallen is sad to see. She was always a support system for her father once her mother died. Now she's on her own at school, and she falls...

But I enjoy that they pop up every once while...

And yeah this drug through might not be so dead, and Ziva might be back because of it. Pedro simply can't stay dead... The storyline always turns up!

So, who knows.