Fercita

@GeekSoul The pleasure is mutual

What I meant is that sometimes we take an opinion to form an opinion, like I tell you, for you she fell in love in that episode, for me she didn't. You form an opinion from that premise, when we really don't know.

I really hope she didn't you know? Girls are not that weak willed or weak minded. Penny did make some bad choices and the good thing is that she realized that, it's clear because she has said that a few times, but changing? I don't think so. But it start from an opinion of mine too. For me love is not something that can exist after such a short time, if the person claims that, like I tell you, it's self delusion, there is no way to know a person that well to fall in love with them.

And I'm talking about the same scene, Leonard is a smart guy (most of the time...like he said this episode) and Kurt was a clear example of what Penny's relationship were like, Leonard wouldn't accept something more from her at that moment. Imagine they landed in bed or something more intimate happened, Penny would take it like "you used me when I was sad and weak, and just after this I realized that". Penny is a person that acts impulsively (as we know) and she realizes her mistake after she makes it, so it would be very easy for her to succumb to his geeky charm. And Leonard knows that, he knows that very well. But now that I think it, I wouldn't think the writers made him say no to her just because he wanted her, so you are right that he was kind there.

Penny is impulsive like "At first it's awesome but then you kind of hate yourself" When talking to the girls about her one night stands.

And well I separate Leonard into two, kind Leonard and nice Leonard (Marcia Sirota: The Difference Between Being Nice and Being Kind), but those are two halves, not one under the other or one hidden beneath or one instead of the other. He is both, he is kind when he plays chess for three with Sheldon, or when he accompanies Amy to the wedding, or when he carries a drunk Amy to their car. He doesn't gain anything from that, and he doesn't expect thanks.

But with Penny, I had said this before when I first came on, but it's like a line blurs and that kindness morphs into "niceness" with a tinge of fanaticism. He feel the impulse of pleasing her to gain something from her and also to get the beautiful girl's approval, and when there is no possibility, he snaps and he feels the necessity of clarifying things to feel better: Penny broke up with him, so he doesn't feel (at first) any guilt to tell her he said things to have sex with her, and he even said "everytime".

And he hasn't changed nor I think he will in that regard, after this I do think he has feelings for her, but those are kind of jumbled for the feelings he had for his mom. He feels/felt the compulsion of getting the approval of them both. Obviously those types of feelings are not the same, but they are closely related (Remember what he said to Penny after she kicked him out of the apartment that one time? "If you told me you wanted to have sex with your father I wouldn't mind" or something among those lines?)

Blue Shift

.....
sorry for the double post

Blue Shift

the writers are trying to make leonard look like something he isn't? really? you know how a tv character in real life is?

the writers are those who made him! and all they show us is how they made him and how he is supposed to be!

And i don't think that anyone is expecting from him to be perfect.. i just hoped he was a more honest and moral character, but he isn't. He doesn't even know who he really is.


ok, everybody is talking here about a realistic relationship with problems and flaws.. but really.. i don't know if maybe i'm crazy, but i'm not doing with my boyfriend stuff i don't like at all just to make him happy and he doesn't do stuff he doesn't like at all just to make me happy.
i would kill him if he would make me watch a football game with him!
he wouldn't enjoy watching with me disney movies and i don't expect it from him. I watch them by myself.

we just do stuff we both like, we watch movies we both enjoy and we eat chocolate that we both like.

i know that relationships are about compromise and similar, but if a relationship is all about doing stuff you don't like and the other person doing stuff he/she doesn't like... then i don't see a point in being in such a relationship.

of course, if it's something important..like, if my boyfriend has 2 tickets for a game and none of his friends can go with him, of course i would go.
but if he can do something he loves, that i don't like, with his friends..then why not?

And someone said something about- yeah, the first time their relationship didn't work out, but after they both realize their problems it will work out.
Now i'm maybe crazy again or our we maybe come from very different cultures..but if something between 2 people didn't work out the first time, why would it be good the 2nd time?
Relationships are much more complicated than just learning from your mistakes and practising. Their relationship isn't a computer game, where you can try to save the princess again, because you failed the first time. If something between 2 people is already rotten it can't just go back to be fesh and new and clean, except they both erase their memories about the past relationship.

And i can't believe why so many people here believe in love between the same 2 people, who must completely change and try the same thing over, but this time it has to be better, because they're a little older and know their mistakes?! Really??!
And you call this realistic?
How many people in RL does anyone of you know that had a bad relationship and after they tried again it was great?! I don't know anyone.. but i know people who were in a relationship a long time ago and tried after that a millions of times to be together, but it never worked out- because they just don't understand each other.. and i think that this is the case in this show.

I think that after their bad relationship they both can just learn some things for their future relationships with other people, not with each other.

I hope that this was a step for them to be really good friends again..but nothing more.

Sursonica

The thing is, that I don't think they had a bad relationship, they had a few fights, but which couple doesn't? They were pretty happy with each other for most time....

Because of a sex comment in an episode are we forgetting ALL the episodes they had as a couple where they seemed having a nice relationship?

...and we need to remember that Penny broke up with Leonard because he told her "I love you" when she wasn't ready for it, not because of all the fights or becase of having a bad relationship.

topherkraz78

Penny is so immature to not be able to take ILY from someone, namely Leonard, who's treated her like a queen for the most part. Leonard is a good guy and I did NOT like how Penny treated him. That is why I am not a LP fan. It has nothing to do with Leonard, its all pointed towards Penny. I just simply don't like her. If they get back together she better not turn into a bitch like Donna was to Eric on That '70s Show.

WeBuiltThePyramids

Honestly, for a while after TLE, I wasn't sure if I shipped them either. And because of Penny. I took my residual anger at her out in vids (She's A Bitch, and I'm a Fool and Love Like Woe, so angry songs) to make myself feel better. But all that kept me shipping them through that time was partly the Snuggler thread (who probably remember my depression) and partly because I adore Leonard so much I still wanted him to be happy (which is why my dad ships L/P, he's not a Penny fan but Leonard's his favorite so whoever Leonard wants to be with my dad wants Leonard to be with.). But I definitely don't blame you for that, Krys.

Rockyele

THIS, very much.

If I think they could be able to have a relationship again, a good one, it's because they already had a growingly good relationship, what was so "horrible" about it? were any of them emotionally or physically abusive to the other? They had a couple disagreements and personality clashes, yes, I mean, like any other couple?
Yes, the both were immature, they were not ready for it, it was a very physical relationship, but there were also deeper feelings. Both of them had entered sort of a low point in their lives after they got apart, Penny seem kind of lost, and Leonard is hurt and confused.
They need to grow individually and become friends again, better friends than they used to be, then we will see if they are able to become a couple for real.

Fercita

I said the writers -through the characters and themselves- try to make him look like. As in, it's not the same to say "they try to make him look like" to "they make him like" Those are completely different statements. They try to make him look like a kind, not-like-other-guys guy, they make him like a jerk (depending on the storyline and the and circumstances). In best cases, we get the Leonard I mentioned in my previous post, in worst, he is either a non-character or he acts like a jerk (anyone get the "act" reference? :B)

You will see why I emphasize the whole "Show what you say" It's very common in bad writing that the authors narrate things to describe a certain character (either in the perspective of the author itself, or through another character), just for that character do to a completely different thing. In short, Bernadette can say he is all so nice and not like any other guy, but him going away when Howard had problems with his mom, him going to talk to Priya the ex he loved so vastly much or him telling Penny all the things he did to get into her pants doesn't "Show" he is not-like-any-other-guy, Penny being attracted to him because he is nice, doesn't mean he is going to be. Him telling Alice he is the nice guy doesn't mean he is actually going to be. And like I said before, him not being a jerk doesn't automatically make him a kind guy (See that I changed words). The absence of one doesn't force the existence of another. And seeing an article about LP, wondering what exactly Penny found about him, there is just a reply that stuck to me that said "He isn't particularly nice". As in, okay he is nice, so what? Does that justify her feelings? It doesn't, does it justify her attraction? Maybe, she is tired of the jerks she has dated, when she sees someone that is simply "not like them", she will have an interest. But see, that's the matter, she is seeing a guy that it's "not like them" instead of a guy that is by his own.

Either way, I agree with everything else you've said and I want to compliment it that if two people are not compatible for each other, it doesn't matter that their relationship wasn't exactly bad (addressing other posts). It was not good. The is a world of difference in saying "it's not bad" to "It's good".

And sitcom-wise, that's more present. The writers know they are not good at drama, and the scenes they have had that didn't revolve round them kissing or having sex, the only thing they do is antagonize one another. Except for that scene where Penny shot Sheldon's sit and Leonard said "butt print". That was nice, you could even feel him saying "you and I had the opportunity to be "we" like a year and a half, not you are you and you are screwed!" was not to antagonize.

Even after five seasons, Leonard, while trying so hard, is still the same guy he was, I don't know if writers do realize why they choose the dialogue the choose.

Blue Shift

ok, if i understand you- they say all the time that he's a nice guy, but then they show us something completely different?
i don't like that either, but maybe it's just something about his character- maybe he isn't that nice, but he thinks that he is..and he really doesn't know who he is or who he wants to be.. but i think they do it on purpose. i think there's much more hidden stuff between the lines that we don't know yet (i hope so, because they are writers and we shouldn't underestimate them).

i think that leonard didn't find the right girl yet. yes, he had a crush on penny for years, but that all seemed to me like high school crushes- you see a nice girl/ boy and you fall in love with your picture of him/ her.
he couldn't feel really comfortable around her, he was pretending all the time and either not trying or trying too hard to please her.
she was feeling dumb when she was with him and she didn't love him.. i think for her he was just trying something new.. it's also somehow high school love in my opinion- if it doesn't work with the cool guys, then it has to work with the geeky guys.. and if it doesn't work with the geeky guys any more, then i'll try it again with a dumb guy.. maybe later she will switch to artists or old guys..

i know lots of people with that kind of logic- oh, i gave her my heart and she stomped on it, so i have to act like a jerk so she will love me.
or- my past relationships were all a disaster, so i have to try the opposite and it will work out! but that's just stupid!
people tend to go from one extreme to the other, without even thinking.

People don't change just like that. People can only behave a little different if they find a special person- someone who will make you grow a little and someone who will change a little for you- but just a little and it must not be forced!

I think that if leonard would find a girl, who he really loves and who loves him, he would just be nice. He wouldn't say or do things just to get sex, he would do it to be with that person.
He wouldn't just go and have sex with another woman 1 or 2 weeks after their break up, because his heart wouldn't let him to do so.
He wouldn't try so hard to make an impression in front of her friends..
He could just be himself and because of his really honest and strong feelings for that person, he would just be a better leonard without even thinking about it.
The same apllies to penny.

BlackWhiteRose

I rewatched it again last night and it was fun as always.

Loved Raj´s "That´s one tough birdie."

ennaxor

My full rewatch last year reminded me of how much I love this episode! Lots of LP, and lots of really funny stuff with the bird!

*luminous*

Leonard and Penny's banter is hilarious.

BlackWhiteRose

I watched the episode again last night. Loved Sheldon with that bird

The Leonard/Penny banter was amusing.

WeBuiltThePyramids

This is a really solid one.

SargeantFuzzyBoots

"Is this your bird? Not anymore."