Fan Forum
Remember Me?
Register

  New Forum Poll   |     Request a Forum   |     View New Forums

Reply   Post New Thread
 
Forum Affiliates Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2019, 11:35 AM
  #241
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalfate (View Post)
Yeah they said Franco had brain tumor just because they changed the actor and wanted to change his role sort of completely. So I can see why fans didn't really buy into that storyline.

I sure don't cut them slack because when Ben was killing people I don't remember people saying "Aww look he has mental issues so it's okay." however once he got paired with Ciara, it seems what he did in the past is acceptable... and THAT's my issue... if the CIN pairing didn't become as big, would be still act the same way.


For me my issue with Ben's redemption storyline thus far is that I don't see why everyone in Salem should forget what he's done? What has Ben really did besides save and love Ciara? To anyone else, he should be the same serial killer since he really haven't done anything else. So my issue with some fans are the ones who are having an issue with the treatment of Ben... umm... if Ben doesn't like being treated that way, he doesn't need to be in Salem! He can start a whole new life somewhere else.... I know for storyline purposes that won't happen but it's why I can't really feel too sad (yet) for him.

It seems in Soaps the pattern is starting to be the rapist having a legit redemption storyline whereas the serial killers have the mentally ill excuse....
I think fans don't necessarily forget a character's past which is why it's good when you see a character show a long drawn out guilt within themselves.


Soap Couples from the 90 were so amazing.
I don't have an issue with his treatment. It's on par with how the story should be given his past. The only issue I've seen for some fans is the double standard because half the people constantly over him are murderers or said they were mentally ill and gotten away with murder. As for Ben, he can't leave Salem. The police told him not to since he's a suspect in an investigation.

I enjoyed JnJ's story but I don't think Jack's storyline is everything some make it out to be. He continuously treats Jennifer poorly throughout their courtship. I got tired of her begging to be with a rapist during some parts. Why does she have to be reduced to throwing herself at him? Yes, his self loathing but what about her self respect? Then their marriage. He abandons her countless times. He's so indifferent to her pregnancy. For me, the wonderous redemption, at times feels like a redemption to Jack's continually mediocrity.

90's were the glory days but so many problematic tropes for JnJ. I mean the power dynamic in their relationship alone is a problem - he's her boss. He fires her because of their relationship. He gives her a bad reference after firing her. It was all over the place but there was quality in there.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 01:24 PM
  #242
Fan Forum Legend

 
eternalfate's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 415,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuitUp (View Post)
I don't have an issue with his treatment. It's on par with how the story should be given his past. The only issue I've seen for some fans is the double standard because half the people constantly over him are murderers or said they were mentally ill and gotten away with murder. As for Ben, he can't leave Salem. The police told him not to since he's a suspect in an investigation.

I enjoyed JnJ's story but I don't think Jack's storyline is everything some make it out to be. He continuously treats Jennifer poorly throughout their courtship. I got tired of her begging to be with a rapist during some parts. Why does she have to be reduced to throwing herself at him? Yes, his self loathing but what about her self respect? Then their marriage. He abandons her countless times. He's so indifferent to her pregnancy. For me, the wonderous redemption, at times feels like a redemption to Jack's continually mediocrity.

90's were the glory days but so many problematic tropes for JnJ. I mean the power dynamic in their relationship alone is a problem - he's her boss. He fires her because of their relationship. He gives her a bad reference after firing her. It was all over the place but there was quality in there.

If we are talking about Abby, she should NEVER forgive Ben since he's the reason why she lost it to begin with since he tried to set her on fire and he drove her crazy. Just because Abby cheated on Ben, that doesn't give him the right to lose it like that.
And kill 4 people in the process.

No one was defending Ben until the Ciara pairing. That's the issue.

A lot of the same person who are hating how Abby treats Ben were the same ones praising her a few years ago when she did the same exact thing!

Actually Ben could've left Salem BEFORE all of this! He was even going to leave but remember Ciara stopped him and move him in with her. So there were always opportunities for him to leave.

You can't be expected to be treated as a Golden Child in the same place where you were a serial killer especially in so little time.

The reason why (on a lot of occasions) she faught for him was because she LOVED HIM! and he didn't think he was worthy of her love... even one time he was finally ready to be with her and he accidentally killed someone which yet again made him think he wasn't worthy of her love.

No it wasn't always perfect obviously but I think what fans loved was that it wasn't rushed and it took them a long time to get together and Jack never forgot about his past and like nowadays characters, blame a mental illness whenever confronted.

Even when Eve confronted Ben, the words he used was he sorry but he was mentally ill than... NO ONE wants to hear that.

It's like this Gabi vs Abby storyline!
Although Abby was mentally ill when she was Gabby, she apologized for the mistakes she made even if she really wasn't in control.

Imagine if after Jack raped Kayla, his daily response was, "I'm so sorry for what I did! I was mentally ill than so I couldn't control it."

That's what I mention as my issue with the storylines nowdays.

And I can at least say when it came to Abby, AT LEAST she owned up to what she did even if she had no control. She told Gabi many times she was sorry... and didn't even get Gabi locked up because she blamed herself for how Gabi turned out... they won't be friends again but she was the bigger woman and put the blame on herself even for something she didn't remember nor had control over.


I don't think anyone ever said that JnJ was perfect.
And as for JnJ vs Cin, I think we are all different so we all don't need to feel the same way.
CIN can be popular but that doesn't mean everyone should love them the most or love the storyline direction.

For me, I like CIN but I also don't care for "Ben is changed" act until I see more of it outside of only him being nice in front of Ciara.... I guess I just need more.

I loved his scenes with Marlena which was why I was upset the writers seemed to have ruined that relationship as well.

__________________
The Q u e e n of the recast; and one of the Queens of Daytime television
who just happen to have 3 Emmy's to back her up.
|G I N A|
Tia| youtube | tumblr / | icon ||
eternalfate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 03:11 PM
  #243
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
I never said Abby had to forgive Ben. I didn't even touch the topic of forgiveness at all. If we're truly blaming people for triggering one another's mental illness, by default Abby cheating on Ben triggered his psychotic break. Mental illness isn't about "the right". It's a break from reality. You're speaking as though someone with mental illness chooses to lose their mind. In that case, Abby chose to frame Gabi and sleep with Stefan.

I'm not going to touch on Abby/Gabi because all your AT LEASTS - I don't see that. We have polar opposites views on the Abby/Gabi situation. I don't think this is the thread to get into it.

People were defending Ben prior to Ciara. During his scenes with Marlena before he even met Ciara. Dating as far back when Sam hired him to strangle Will again to get his memories back.

You referred to now. He doesn't need to be in Salem - So I explained why he does. Outside of that you could ask that question of anyone at any given time. On any show. So not sure what kind of answer you're expecting.

You can love someone and still have self respect. That's all I wanted for Jennifer as I watched JnJ's love story. I didn't like that she didn't get to have it because they were so focused on playing into Jack's self loathing. Who better to redeem him than a virgin. Walking problematic tropes. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy them but I can do so while pointing out their flaws. Which is what I do with every ship I enjoy.

Like when she said this to Jack:

"You're just saying that cos you want me to shut up Jack. Don't you dare me fun of me. You are not happy unless you make a complete fool of me or unless you make me miserable...No matter how many times I threw myself at you. You walked away like I was nothing. How would you do you think that feel? How would like the idea of feeling of so unwanted and worthless? Then you fire me from the best job I ever had...then you push me at Emilo..You pushed me away. Like I was some idiot whose feelings that didn't matter. Is that what I am to you Jack. You think I'm just fool that you can jerk around? I'm not ya know. If you kick me it hurts, if you laugh at me and use me it hurts Jack. You've hurt me so many times I can't even count them all."

It was one of the low points of their relationship where I was struggling with the push and pull. I didn't enjoy Jack treating her that way. Or when he was jealous/deflated over her being more successful and making more money. Just not my tempo.

It's easier to wrap my head around mental illness than to have violating someone while sane. Rape and murder are just so different to me. One is violence and sexual gratification from said violence, which freaks me out. The other is purely violence. I'm sure power plays into both but like I said -- rape culture is my greatest dislike in genre.

Ben's confrontation with Eve had a lot more words than that:

"I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I wish there was some way I could help. Ms. Donovan, Eve, I understand you need something from me but I don't have a good answer for why I did what I did....I'm ashamed of what I did. What I became. If I could turn back time...[Eve strangles Ben] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I know there's nothing I can say Eve, but I'm sorry."

Not sure when it was implied everyone should love Cin, their storyline or that JnJ fans thought their story was perfect. I just don't think Jack's redemption was everything some made it out to be. I never saw what he was redeemed to in the end because for the most part he disappointed and abandoned Jennifer. That was always hard to watch but that's soap couples.

As for Ben, I don't think what you need to see more of in his future arc is what I want it to be. I hope he ends up working for Stefan. The bad boy bromance.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 08:18 PM
  #244
Loyal Fan
 
slbcwrites's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuitUp (View Post)
You can love someone and still have self respect. That's all I wanted for Jennifer as I watched JnJ's love story. I didn't like that she didn't get to have it because they were so focused on playing into Jack's self loathing. Who better to redeem him than a virgin. Walking problematic tropes. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy them but I can do so while pointing out their flaws. Which is what I do with every ship I enjoy.
There are times during Jennifer's pursuit of Jack that she does leave her pride at the door, which she admits to. Jack even says to her at one point, "You're better than this." But I don't agree that she didn't get to have self-respect. It wasn't like it was just Jack treating her poorly and her taking it. Jennifer walked away several times, and she told him exactly what she thought about him - good and bad - several times. She was never afraid to tell him exactly how she felt. When he broke up with her following Harper's death, she said okay, fine, and she went off to pursue the Katerina impersonation. When he followed her to New York, she told him off more than once, declaring that she was going to do what she wanted and he couldn't stop her. She was still very young when they met, but she found her own strength numerous times and asserted that strength with him. She didn't let him dictate how she felt or thought. No, their story wasn't perfect. Particularly after their wedding, which I think most J&J fans agree was considerably poorer writing-wise.

Quote:
I just don't think Jack's redemption was everything some made it out to be. I never saw what he was redeemed to in the end because for the most part he disappointed and abandoned Jennifer.
I don't think anyone would ever claim that Jack was redeemed into this perfect leading man who did everything correctly, but I don't think the fact that he remained emotionally stunted for years afterward negates the redemption he did undergo. One of the things that I think made his redemption seem more powerful and why it gets so much praise was that he changed over a long period of time and you saw it in various aspects of his life, not just in his romance with Jennifer but with his family and even in how he approached his work at The Spectator, going from someone who only bought the paper to keep out bad stories about himself, to someone who came to care about the issues he was writing about. We don't get that kind of writing anymore, everything has to happen so quickly now. Considering he was pretty evil for about a year from 1988-1989, the change that slowly was shown in him as someone who wanted to do better, who felt deep remorse, who came to hate himself for the things he had done, was well written and a pretty dramatic change. He still had a multitude of flaws that made his relationships difficult, but I think that's what made his redemption seem more deep and real. He didn't transform into a perfect person, and yet we could still see the key differences.

I also think that complexity was lost after their 1991 wedding when a new headwriter took over. From then on, Jack just became more of a bumbling, insecure guy who made dumb choices. That didn't make him a bad person, just forever a flawed person who didn't want to hurt anyone but always lived in fear that he would do so. I hate that Jack has been written to have left Jennifer those couple of times, but since that's what we've been given, I have to live with it. I think a line that Jack said to JJ in a flashback last year succinctly explains why he has done that in the past (though it's actually been a very long time since he's supposedly done it at his own free will): "I always managed to tell myself that you would be better off without me." I would rather Jack finally be at the point where he can know that's not true (and I felt that we saw that briefly in his 2011-2012 run), but I can believe that he's gotten to those points at times because of his old demons.
slbcwrites is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 09:00 PM
  #245
Fan Forum Hero

 
Lethally Floral's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 55,706
The difference between now and then and why Jack's story is held up is not because Jack became perfect. In fact, he didn't. He never was. He raped Kayla. He never escaped from that. And MBE and MA never let their performances forget that rape, even if the show was telling them to.

Jack continued to screw up and could be awful. It was rooted in shame. It was painful. But that's the reason why I think it was a success. It wasn't successful because he became the perfect person. It was a success because, even though he was massively a better person, he still saw a villain in the mirror.

Unfortunately, rape redemption was such a thing in the 80s that some of the best characters got pulled under by it. I've disagreed with things that happened back then too. Loved Jake McKinnon on Another World but Jake and Vicky? Hell no.

But I think my biggest issue with Ben is how little it all means in the end. Ben had no permanent connections to the canvas and killed multiple people. That should have ended the character or created a twin if they wanted to keep the actor. Nope? Serial murder--no biggie. As part of his redemption, let's have him bemoan the fact that people hate him. Let's have Ciara's issues with him disappear because he rescues her. Let's make his sister go crazy. (After Abigail was crazy. Now Claire is going to go homicidal crazy too. )

Whatever happened to a villain who isn't murderous or mentally ill?
__________________
Lethally Floral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 04:34 AM
  #246
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by slbcwrites (View Post)
There are times during Jennifer's pursuit of Jack that she does leave her pride at the door, which she admits to. Jack even says to her at one point, "You're better than this." But I don't agree that she didn't get to have self-respect. It wasn't like it was just Jack treating her poorly and her taking it. Jennifer walked away several times, and she told him exactly what she thought about him - good and bad - several times. She was never afraid to tell him exactly how she felt. When he broke up with her following Harper's death, she said okay, fine, and she went off to pursue the Katerina impersonation. When he followed her to New York, she told him off more than once, declaring that she was going to do what she wanted and he couldn't stop her. She was still very young when they met, but she found her own strength numerous times and asserted that strength with him. She didn't let him dictate how she felt or thought. No, their story wasn't perfect. Particularly after their wedding, which I think most J&J fans agree was considerably poorer writing-wise.
That's fine. I just don't think she had much self respect Her actions didn't exemplify that definition. When she got engaged to Emilo knowing she didn't love him just to push Jack to admit he cared about her. Pretending to be hurt just so Jack would say he cared about her. "Locking" the door, putting the key down her shirt, jumping onto of him. Comedic, but that and countless things were problematic that a virgin has to constantly be put in the position of throwing herself at a rapist. Losing your job because your boss has romantic feelings for you. That alone is degrading. Regardless of what age she was. I can point to moments and say, "I wish she respected herself more." Especially if you're feeling worthless, kicked and unwanted like Jennifer said, and still coming back for more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slbcwrites (View Post)
I don't think anyone would ever claim that Jack was redeemed into this perfect leading man who did everything correctly, but I don't think the fact that he remained emotionally stunted for years afterward negates the redemption he did undergo. .
I'm not sure where the word perfect keeps coming from in these discussions. Some people make it out to be more than it was. Operative word being some. To me, a redemption arc should end with the evolution into something greater. I didn't get that with Jack. Yes, he was no longer "evil". He was no longer raping women but he existed in mediocrity and endless disappointment. I hoped for more from him. He's didn't need to be Superman. He just needed to be more. It was rare to see Jennifer falter in their marriage. It was always Jack. To be so despondent over the announcement of Jennifer's pregnancy. To watch him fail to remember Jennifer's birthday or give her a meaningful speech. It was a shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slbcwrites (View Post)
I also think that complexity was lost after their 1991 wedding when a new headwriter took over. From then on, Jack just became more of a bumbling, insecure guy who made dumb choices. That didn't make him a bad person, just forever a flawed person who didn't want to hurt anyone but always lived in fear that he would do so. I hate that Jack has been written to have left Jennifer those couple of times, but since that's what we've been given, I have to live with it.
I'm certain changes in the writers room affected the writing. That always happens on TV with the best of shows and couples. OOC and bad writing are a given. Living with it involves being able to critique it. It was gratuitous after a certain point for me as a fan. I understood why Jennifer grew sick of it. She grew up. It felt like Jack didn't at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethally Floral (View Post)
The difference between now and then and why Jack's story is held up is not because Jack became perfect.
Save for repeating again, the word "perfect" isn't anywhere in my vocabulary when having this discussion. He existed in mediocrity: as a husband and as father. That's where his redemption storyline failed to me and isn't what some make it out to be.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 06:32 AM
  #247
Loyal Fan
 
slbcwrites's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,259
^ We just have to agree to disagree on a lot, because Jack's continual flaws and failings don't for me take away from what I felt was superb writing during that 1989 to 1991 period where Jack transformed from villain to antihero.

But I do apologize if you think I meant to imply you used the word "perfect." That's just a phrase I was using to basically say it had flaws and I'm not under the illusion that everything about it was written the best that it could be.
slbcwrites is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 06:49 AM
  #248
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
No worries. And yes, we agree to disagree.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 08:07 PM
  #249
Fan Forum Hero

 
Lethally Floral's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 55,706
Quote:
We just have to agree to disagree on a lot, because Jack's continual flaws and failings don't for me take away from what I felt was superb writing during that 1989 to 1991 period where Jack transformed from villain to antihero
Exactly. I guess whether or not the redemption was it was made out to be depends on what a viewer expected from the redemption arc. I'm understanding why we differ in opinion from SuitUp. I got what I expected. It was long. It was comedic. It was tragic. It was loooong. It was frustrating. It was character-based. That's why I praise it. Maybe Jack was mediocre. He'd probably agree. But that's why I thought he turned into a great character.

But alas, that was then when I was a regular viewer. This is now where I'm sporadic. Low budgets and then get rid of writers who know how to write nuance.
__________________
Lethally Floral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 01:25 AM
  #250
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
Agreed. I wasn't expecting mediocrity. We had different expectations.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 09:10 AM
  #251
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616



Favorite scene of theirs from the early early days.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2019, 04:34 PM
  #252
Fan Forum Legend

 
eternalfate's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 415,819
Aww that's sweet. Poor Jennifer.
__________________
The Q u e e n of the recast; and one of the Queens of Daytime television
who just happen to have 3 Emmy's to back her up.
|G I N A|
Tia| youtube | tumblr / | icon ||
eternalfate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2019, 02:39 AM
  #253
Master Fan

 
SuitUp's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Spoilers
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 18,616
IKR but she looked so pretty though. Plus such beautiful flowers. Imagine waking up to those.
__________________
You sit and you're all confused about this thing but you have it.
You have everything. So hold onto it. Use two hands and never let go.
"You have a thing for dangerous women."
SuitUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2019, 02:53 AM
  #254
Fan Forum Legend

 
Jaime Bee's Avatar

Moderator of ...
Sarah Michelle Gellar
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 262,906
I feel like that moment was the first time Jack showed he really cared about someone after what happened with Kayla.

__________________
Dylan♥Kelly

Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover


Jaime Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2019, 12:39 PM
  #255
Fan Forum Legend

 
eternalfate's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 415,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaime Bee (View Post)
I feel like that moment was the first time Jack showed he really cared about someone after what happened with Kayla.

Agreed! and even when he first saw Abby before Eve interrupted.
__________________
The Q u e e n of the recast; and one of the Queens of Daytime television
who just happen to have 3 Emmy's to back her up.
|G I N A|
Tia| youtube | tumblr / | icon ||
eternalfate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply   Post New Thread

Bookmarks


Forum Affiliates
Justin Hartley Net
Thread Tools



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:05 AM.

Fan Forum  |  Contact Us  |  Fan Forum on Twitter  |  Fan Forum on Facebook  |  Archive  |  Top

Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2019.

Copyright © 1998-2019, Fan Forum.


TEST