a new hope

First 3x05 discussion thread

a new hope

We were insanely beyond 300 posts Sorry it took me so long to notice.

Carry on. And be civil or I'll throw a fit.

unintended

I have mixed feelings about this episode. It made me like Freddie more but it made me dislike Effy because of the way she didn't care about his feelings at all. I still don't buy Effy/Freddie as a couple and the episode didn't help because at this point I feel she doesn't deserve to be with anyone. She needs to grown on her own. Maybe we'll see that in her episode.

Next week looks good

chaos blues

thank you. and here i was thinking you went to bed.

yeah.. i'm a bit worried about effy. she needs to make up her mind.

a new hope

I was going to bed but I felt the need to say a few things here before I'm still super sleepy though. I'll just hang in for about an hour or so.

That's how I felt after watching the episode, too. Which is funny considering I never really cared about Freddie's feelings before, but what Effy did rubbed me the wrong way.

JusW

That's suggesting that all that the writers want us to know about a particular character at any given moment, is set in stone from day 1 (or in this case 3 or 4 prior episodes). In a new series you have already established characters (like Effy) who are suddenly interacting with characters they have never met before. It's not then such a feat to assume that in some instances and with some other characters, the character may behave in the same way; and with some other characters, she may behave completely differently. For example, I'm ordinarily a pretty reserved, pragmatic, some would say cold, individual, however when I meet someone I feel attracted to, unfortunately I suffer from a case of verbal diarrhoea, and all sort of strange romantic notions come into my head. Friends who have seen me in such situations have said that I wasn't behaving like myself - that I was acting out of the ordinary, or out of character. And they would be right. But that's not to say that the idiotic looking person blabbering on about some inanity is not me - because it is. It's just that the other party in question has brought out a different side of me, one which I ordinarily do my best to conceal. To type-categorise people into say, the bookish type, or the party type, based upon what is by necessity a limited knowledge is to assess them only superficially. It is to underestimate the capacity for human beings to react differently to different situations, to build facades in the hope of concealing something else, and to interact differently with different people. It's saying that the wide variety of human nature and the human experience can be predicted after 120 minutes of knowing a person. Have we not considered the possiblity that maybe, just maybe, the fact that Effy acts differently when she's with Freddie than with everyone else says something significant about the Effy/Freddie relationship?

Further, when we're discussing a teenage show like skins - the hard and fast relationship between in-character and out-of-character which has been proposed becomes a much finer line, to the point where it's questionable. Adolescence is a period traditionally associated with finding and developing a reference and an identity of own's own. It's probably cheesy to suggest it, but the teenage years are a period for discovering oneself, as we become more aware of ourselves - physically and emotionally; and more aware of our surroundings. At age 18, I was certainly not the person I was at age 14, and I think I would not be alone in encapsulating this pretty much universal (or at least Western theme). In fact, some of us spent our teenage years pretty much veering wildly from one predominant characteristic to a completely contrasting one. For me, in retrospect, I found that I could be cruel and self-centred one day, to kind and generous the next. Whether it's hormones, or upbringing, or just part of what people term the teenage experience or growing up - my point is that in teenage shows the leeway and the line we afford characters are by necessity much finer because of the very nature of self-discovery. We're not set in stone as characters come the age of 14, and it's incumbent upon shows like Skins to recognize that.

So in answer to your asserting that "characters...have certain characteristics that define them as ppl", I'd have to say that I reject this based on my own experience. To suggest that limits the definition of what it is to be a human being, as someone capable of experiencing the entire gamut of emotions, as someone capable of expressing said emotions in different and varied ways, and as individuals with the capacity for extreme good, and extreme evil. To try to define a person by his actions, or her predominant character traits, is incomprehensible to me.

a new hope

I feel that there's a big difference between showing us a side of a character that we didn't know and writting a character badly. In S2, I felt Cassie was acting very differently than she used to, almost like someone else, but I thought it was done in a convincing way. But in contrast, I felt Sid was written badly in the second half of season 2, and not because he was 'out of character', but because I felt that the writers didn't know how to handle certain storylines. I'm a big believer that creators/writers mess up sometimes. But of course, it's up to us individually to judge what we consider a character progression and what we consider bad writing.

eternalnoob

No. They develop the characters but you as the audience do get a sense of who these ppl are when we first meet them. We get to know them as time goes on which therein lies their character, for lack of a better word. When their actions are so far from what they would normally do or be like, it's OOC to me. Esp when it doesn't really have an explanation for it. No character is ever set in stone, such as no person is. Everyone has the ability to grow but growth involves time. Not just a few seconds.

I would say that Effy's relationship with Freddie was significant if it wasn't so clear to me that it's all down to her being vulnerable. It's been proven from the first 2 seasons who she is, how she interacts with ppl - new or old - so to have her suddenly become so affected by him because he called her beautiful, or because he told her he liked her is so OOC to me because we've known her to not be the type to be affected by things like that.

JusW

No. We've seen how she interacts previously with Sid, Tony, her parents, her friends, Josh, etc. We haven't seen before how she reacts to Freddie. It's not just a difference between new people and old people. It's a difference between Freddie and everyone else.

And you're absolutely right - we've known her not to be affected by other people telling her she's beautiful, or other people telling her they liked her. Maybe, just maybe then for Effy, Freddie is not just other people.

a new hope

I personally find it hard to believe that someone would have that big an effect on her (or on anyone, really) after a couple of dialogues and glances. I definitely think it's a direct reflection of her vulnerabilties based on what she's going through at home. I'm saying that because of how fast things happened. If we had seen this kind of interaction at the end of the season, after more build up, I would've bought it as it being about them more for sure. But by the way things are going right now, I think she's just reflecting her issues.

JusW

That's the thing though. Sometimes all it takes is a spark. To attempt to explain why someone is attracted to someone else - whether physically or emotionally is akin to asking someone to explain the purpose of life. I know from my own experience that it can be the most inane things which first draw me to a person - like the way she looks at me for example - which kick-starts an attraction that then causes me, almost immediately, to act in ways I ordinarily would not. And yes, it may well be Effy's issues at home which have opened her up to this possibility. That's neither here nor there really. Doesn't mean this possibility doesn't exist for her, it just means that a combination of family life, plus a chance encounter with the appropriate individual has allowed her to express this side to her personality which previously she felt the need to keep hidden.

In any respect, whether you agree with that, or disagree and feel that there needs to be a bigger hullabaloo in explaining why someone is attracted to someone else, or why someone has a particular effect on someone else, to suggest that the first option is just poor writing is to deny the genius of many literary greats who have utilised the first mechanism extensively as a literary and story telling device.

chemistry86

In a way I feel Effy lost Tony and now she doesnt have any solid foundation to turn to after her parents went sour, and because of that she is using Freddie to feel good about herself. I just dont see how someone like her can be affected by someone calling her beautiful and especially not Freddie, since his basis is being infatuated by her physical appearance and element of intrique. He doesnt even know who she is anymore than Cook does, and really he doesnt work hard at all to get to know her, he just rambles off nice words and we're supposed to believe Effy is shaken up from it?

eternalnoob

I agree completely, Conspiracy. Her entire relationship with Freddie to me just comes from her vulnerability. It's why he's had the affect he's had on her, IMO. We've never seen her like this with anyone because she's never been this vulnerable either. And he's coming at the precise time to take advantage of her vulnerability.

a new hope

I see what you mean, it's just harder to show that type of attraction through tv because it's not that easy to get in a character's skin with 'love at fist sight' types of situation. Which is partly why I never ship couples like that, or why I rarely do. I like the long, dragged out build up, you know? I guess it's a matter of taste. I just find it hard to relate to couples like that unless they're being done exceptionally well, and F/E isn't. At least not to me, which is why I'm interpreting them differently than you. It's about relating to different things I remember a minority of posters here who didn't buy the Chris/Jal love in 2x05 and I kept thinking to myself "How can you not feel it?" but it's different strokes for different folks.

JusW

Lol. Never once did I buy or support Chris/Jal in any shape or form.

You're right - it's different strokes for different people. But I think to characterize the writing of Effy with regards to E/F as OOC just because one doesn't buy it is simplistic, especially when the main thrust of it seems to be that Effy is all of a sudden and for no apparent reason behaving differently, because well - you yourself made the point that the writers did give a reason for the development in Effy which was the break up of her family unit. Whether that then becomes as someone else puts it, Freddie taking advantage of her vulnerability, or her vulnerability allowing herself to be open to the possibility of something different, is another question, but that's unrelated to the OOC argument.