awelle

He was definitely on his own on that, but Sarah blamed herself for missing that. If she hadn´t interacted with him at all prior to that, that´s a pretty strange notion. And when exactly did Sarah learn about Bryce´s betrayal now? That was very much on her mind in the pilot.

They also already revisited Sarah´s first contact with Chuck in Nacho Sampler with her being sent his photo on her phone while she is already in the Buy More to identify him. That makes her short term memory look really bad now.

I thought there was a great chemistry between Yvonne and Cheryl Ladd, that felt very true to a mother daughter relationship to me.

But the lack of any explanation regarding Sarah being brought up primarely by her father and at some time living with her grandmother stifled the emotional weight of their interactions.

I so loved that scene with Sarah´s mother regretfully telling her, that she wanted her to have a normal sheltered upbringing and Sarah´s emotional plea to give that to the baby now.

But it could have packed a so much bigger punch, if there was any explanation why Sarah´s mother failed to give Sarah that upbringing or any indication if Sarah was blaming her for it.

Remember the fantastic scene when Chuck first talked to his father again? His line "I don´t want to hear what you can´t do. I have seen what you can´t do." made that such an outstanding moment. And I am a little dissappointed that something similar between Sarah and her mother wasn´t possible, because their backstory was so murky.

If Sarah´s mother wanted to give Sarah that childhood, why on earth didn´t she? And instead let her small child be raised by a con man father, who had neither the means nor apparently the desire to take full time care of her. Sarah was maybe 7 or 8 in that flashback in Wedding Planner. Kids that small don´t run off with one parent by their own choice. If anything Sarah´s dad ran off with her. And that doesn´t make much sense with him dropping her off at her grandmother´s house.

And why would the CIA don´t know about her mother´s existence, if Graham stated in Cougars, that he had seen her birth certificate?

ETA: Sorry for putting all that here, as it doesn´t really pertain to Chuck and Sarah´s relationship that much. I guess their first meeting does, but Sarah´s backstory probably less so. I could paste it into the episode threat. Should I?

weejad

Yeah, I never said that Sarah and Bryce never interacted before that. I said that just because they were partners at some time prior to the pilot doesn't mean they were still partners right up to the start of the pilot. If Sarah wasn't working with Bryce on the intersect project prior to the pilot, then it makes more sense that Ryker could have requested Sarah alone for his mission anyways.

And regardless of when they were partners, she'd have learned of his betrayal in the briefing prior to her first appearing at the Buy More.

As far as the flashback in Nacho Sampler and the one in this episode, that's pretty trivial. Looking at the phone in Nacho Sampler doesn't negate her seeing the file on him in Graham's office beforehand.

awelle

But the way they played it, this looked to be the briefing right before Sarah was sent to Burbank. And Bryce wasn´t officially working on the intersect project. Fulcrum contacted him with that in secret. He said, he didn´t knew who to trust and thus didn´t confide in Sarah.

This had to have happened immediately prior for Sarah to be that affected by her partner´s and boyfriend´s betrayal. If they were on different missions, Sarah and didn´t speak for at least a few days, she can´t blame herself for missing the signs.

Ryker requesting Sarah because of her loner appearance also doesn´t quite fit there.

It´s not terribly important. I just thought it was unecessary to do that. They could have easily used some other time in Sarah´s backstory, that was less defined by already established events. And if they wanted to tie that into her being assigned to Chuck, they could have just have Graham remind her of her bad experiences with having a handler while assigning her that mission.

It didn´t really take away from the episode´s excellent display of all the relationships. So I really only brought it up, because I think they could have easily avoided any problems with a little more care and with no cost to the episode.

Not defining a better history for Sarah and her mother was a bigger cop out to me. There was just much more potential with that, because I very much doubt they ever bring it up again. Sarah´s backstory episodes are always pretty self-contained.

awelle

ETA: Sorry for the dp.

weejad

Wasn't he? I thought Bryce was working with Orion on the intersect, from what I recall. He had access to it somehow. And IMO it would have made more sense for Fulcrum to contact him if he WAS working on the intersect.

I do think that the Budapest mission happened immediately before the pilot, actually overlapping partly (the intersect was already sent to Chuck before the meeting with Graham). Sarah missing the signs could easily refer to Bryce's betrayal in general (i.e., a willingness to betray), not specifically to him stealing the intersect. She also could have known that Bryce was working on the intersect before her Budapest mission, even if she was not working on it herself. Bryce was her boyfriend after all.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative. I'm not saying it was a perfect tie-in to the pilot, only that it wasn't a bad one either.

awelle

Orion was on the run. Nobody official knew who he was or what he was doing. Bryce was definitely not working on the intersect in any official capacity.

That´s definitely how they presented it and I think that was unecessary, because it doesn´t fit that well with what was established in the pilot. Sarah was suspected of working with Bryce. She was determined to prove that wasn´t true and actually more eager for an opportunity to show that than Graham was to have her work on that mission.

That doesn´t fit well with the events of this episodes overlapping with the pilot. And this episode didn´t need to happen at that specific time at all. It could have happened at any time prior to the pilot without changing anything important about it.

I have no problem with arguments.

And like I said, I don´t think it was that important and the episode didn´t really suffer for it that much. It was just careless and unecessary, because the tie in to the pilot really wasn´t essential to this episode.

weejad

Can you point to an episode or scene where it was established that Bryce never officially worked on the intersect? I honestly don't recall that.

Orion was on the run from everyone by the time we encounter him, but it seems like he was still working for the CIA on the intersect at some time after leaving his family. We know that Orion and Bryce had contact long after Orion ran from his family. So them both working on the intersect project at the same time (at some point in the years before the pilot) seems like the best explanation for how they came into contact in the first place. It's possible that Bryce had been working on the intersect at one time, and was then taken off that project.

I think that Orion kept working for the CIA on the intersect after going on the run, at least for some period of time. The CIA may even have known his where-abouts after he left his family, but that wouldn't be necessary for him to have still been working for them.

Anyway, it's not really important, and it's too much work for a Saturday to try to piece together an exact timeline from the bits and pieces that I can remember now.

awelle

Beckman told Sarah they had been looking for Orion since she was in a training bra. And I remember Orion contacting Bryce to keep Chuck out of the CIA while he was already on the run and didn´t have the means to do that.

I don´t remember a specific scene, but as far as I remember it, Sarah said that her partner went rogue. Not her ex-partner or boyfriend and that she would never do that in helicopter. And Bryce´s connection to the intersect only seemed to have come to light after Chuck flashed on Fulcrum recruiting him in Nemesis.

Do you remember a scene that did establish Bryce being officially assigned to the intersect?

cowgirl08

As far as the flashbacks the two that had me a bit confused were the one y'all are discussing with how Sarah got Chcks mission but the writing on this show many times cuts corners so as a viewer I've gotten very good at making it fit in for my own understanding. The way I did that for this is basically what Rick is saying but Awelle I do understand where you are coming from I kinda had the same thoughts at first.

The other one...WTF with the baby crying when Sarah met Dyker present day and she runs back there seemingly thinking its the baby....umm it's 5 years later the kid is like 6 years old she wouldn't be crying like a baby anymore. Haha I made sense with that by telling myself she was worried he kidnapped another baby but that was a bit of a stretch...really thought this scene was lazy writing.

In the end though since the episode was SRah centric it easily goes into my top eppies. We met SArahs mom guys!! And Sarah has a "sister"! Plus we got to see both Sarah and Chuck interact with the kid with the other lovingly looking at them from a far.( The cliche way of making a couple on tv think about kids of their own but adorable none the less.) Oh and side note: Who else felt that was more Yvonne and Zac when interacting with Molly than Chuck and Sarah haha they seemed very comfortable
with her.

awelle

Yeah, I tried that too, but it is a big stretch. Especially because Sarah used the exact same trick on him when she was first supposed to hand the baby over.

I also thought their interaction with Molly felt a lot like Zac and Yvonne interacting with the kid. But I guess parts of the actors always get absorbed into the characters. And the interactions fit well with Chuck and Sarah as established characters as well.

weejad

No, but my memory of the first couple of seasons is fuzzy atm. It is more of an overall feeling that Bryce was, at least at some point, officially working on the intersect. Wasn't the professor in Alma Mater actually working on something to identify potential intersect candidates? Bryce was definitely working with him in an official capacity, so it seems he was at least tangentially connected the intersect project.

I don't think Sarah saying her partner went rogue is very solid to establish that they had to have been working together immediately prior to the pilot. It could be read that way, but I don't think it HAS to be read that way. I still think the Budapest mission we saw last night does work as Sarah's last mission prior to Chuck, without destroying any previous plot lines.


I do agree that the scene with Sarah hearing the baby cry in present day was a little sloppy. But on the other hand, she was acting out emotionally not rationally to begin with, so it isn't completely unworkable.

cowgirl08

Yeah there were. It's here and there that keep this from being the best episode ever but purely because of Yvonne's acting and what for me was a great CS episode that end scene was so adorable. "I want to remember this moment"

la villanelle

From what I remember he found out via fulcrum.

Did we find out why Sarah was living with her grandmother?

Animefan99

The episode title for 5x12 is

What could this mean? Any ideas

la villanelle

Hmmm...