[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by Wingster (View Post) Pretty sure he'll just stay managing the store. He's kinda lazy, though he could grow out of it.

Oh, I was talking pre-S7. And I think Hyde's "laziness" is really just a lack of motivation. When he's motivated, he works his butt off (like doing chores for the Formans).

Originally Posted by Wingster (View Post) Jackie's career of being a tv anchor/whatever she did in s8 came out of left field as did Eric's teaching

Yeah, Eric teaching makes no sense. Jackie working on a morning talk show grew out of her public access show in season 7. I could see her enjoying being a morning talk show host.

[Wingster]

Jackie working on a morning talk show grew out of her public access show in season 7.

Which came from....?

And I think Hyde's "laziness" is really just a lack of motivation.

I've always thought that they were the same actually.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by Wingster (View Post) Which came from....?

Her desire to be famous and on TV, her enjoyment of talking about herself and gossiping about other people, etc. It's a reasonable extension from her characterization from the start of the show.

Originally Posted by Wingster (View Post) I've always thought that they were the same actually.

I think someone can be genuinely lazy and have a sense of entitlement about others providing their needs for them without doing any work (as adults; children, obviously, need to be fed, sheltered, etc. by parents or guardians). A prime example of this is Ryan from The Office. He expects to be paid for doing nothing but playing Tetris on the company computers, and he tries to bamboozle other people to do his work for him.

Hyde, though, doesn't feel entitled to being cared for. He has a lot of childhood trauma, and that's made him feel hopeless about his future. He doesn't think he's going to amount to much. The men in his family sure didn't (Bud and Edna's family, not W.B.'s) and believes he's going to end up either pumping gas, going to prison, or dying young. So his lack of motivation stems from a mix of anxiety and depression. Not laziness.

Further, when he finally feels safe -- maybe for the first time in his life -- he's very motivated to do chores around the Formans' house to show his gratitude. He's the opposite of lazy.

When Leo hires him to work at the Fotohut, Hyde's the one urging Leo to work (even yelling at him to start working). During a circle with Leo at the Fotohut, Hyde wants to get back to work, and Leo threatens to fire him if he does.

At the Holiday Hotel, Hyde is always shown doing his job as a sous chef and not goofing off until after the work is done -- and even then, he's doing that with his boss and his coworkers (i.e. Eric and Kelso).

When Red hires him to work at the muffler shop, Hyde doesn't slack off. When W.B. hires him for an office job that doesn't fit Hyde's personality at all, Hyde works very hard. He hates the actual work (since it's nothing he's passionate about), but he wants to show W.B. that he doesn't have a sense of entitlement and will earn his place in the business and W.B.'s life (although the latter he shouldn't have to do, but that's in Hyde's psychology).

So if Hyde actually had hope about his future and was able to go into a career he has passion for (like music), he wouldn't slack off. He's give it his all.

[MistyMountainHop]

Answering a Q for someone on the Jackie/Kelso thread. I don't want to write anything negative about how the ship's written on its own thread, so I'm putting it here.

This response is partially adapted from my story One Difference: Jackie and Hyde Don't Kiss (Over the Summer).

Kelso's most romantic gesture is supposedly kissing Jackie, his girlfriend, instead of another girl ("Love, Wisconsin Style" [4x27]). Jackie grants him permission to kiss someone else. It's supposed to be her "penance" for kissing the manager of the Cheese Palace. It's meant to put her and Kelso back on equal footing, and he chooses to kiss her instead.

But her desperation to keep him corrodes her logic. He'd cheated on her countless times, yet she believes she owes him a free pass to kiss another girl.

Kelso makes a false equivalency between Jackie's one kiss with one guy and his months of having sex with at least two different girls. Plus, he had no intention of telling Jackie about his cheating while staying in a relationship with her, whereas Jackie tells Kelso about her kiss within twenty-four hours of it.

And yet the show asks us to believe in "Love, Wisconsin Style" that:

• Jackie's transgression is on the same level of Kelso's
• Jackie owes Kelso a "free pass" to kiss another girl to balance their relationship

If anything, Kelso owes Jackie a free pass to sleep with at least two different guys for months -- and be totally okay with that. Not one complaint. Because he sees that this is the only way for them to balance their relationship. That is, if we take the faulty logic of "Love, Wisconsin Style" and apply it to Kelso's massive amount of transgressions toward Jackie.

This episode, especially when taken in the context of the episodes that come before it, sends the message that it's okay if a man cheats by having sex with (at least) two other women for months -- and hides that fact. He's to be forgiven. But if a woman has one kiss with one other guy and tells her boyfriend almost right away, she's to be harassed, stalked, and punished by her boyfriend for months. And she's not only expected to accept this terrible treatment but to accept it gratefully.

And Kelso choosing to kiss Jackie instead of a different girl is supposed to show how magnanimous and forgiving he is. When he shouldn't have put Jackie in the position of coming up with that "relationship-balancing" punishment in the first place. When all she owed him was the truth and remorse, which she gave him.

[msstock87]

I totally agree with you Lisa. Jackie did not owe Kelso anything after he cheated on her so much. It always angered me how mad Kelso got at Jackie for one kiss when he cheated on her with multiple women.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by msstock87 (View Post) I totally agree with you Lisa. Jackie did not owe Kelso anything after he cheated on her so much. It always angered me how mad Kelso got at Jackie for one kiss when he cheated on her with multiple women.

Right? And the writers do the same thing to Jackie after Hyde sleeps with the nurse. At the start of season 6, the show -- through Hyde's attitude -- makes a false equivalency between Jackie pitting Hyde and Kelso against each other in "Celebration Day" (5x25) for her affection and the spiteful, passive-aggressive way Hyde chooses to break up with her (I don't consider it cheating since Hyde has no intention of staying in a relationship with Jackie afterward, but it's just as bad -- and way nastier).

Not once does Hyde (or the show) refer to Hyde sleeping with the nurse in "The Kids Are Alright" (6x01) and "Join Together" (6x02). Hyde should continue to show remorse, but he seems to have almost no self-awareness. He acts like Jackie's behavior in "Celebration Day" is a magnitude worse than what he does in "You Shook Me" (5x22), to the point of expecting her to apologize first.

No. Just no.

Hyde's apology in "Nobody's Fault but Mine" (5x23) is subpar, too. He expects Jackie to forgive him because it was a "stupid, one-time thing". Instead of focusing on how he hurt her, he focuses on how he doesn't want to lose her. Although the initial part of his apology definitely has the tone of remorse, the fact she doesn't forgive him on his timeline -- on the spot -- shifts him into selfishness and entitlement.

Telling him that he loves her in that episode is also manipulative. The show leads us to believe that this is the first time he ever says this to her. He tries to use the power and lure of expressing those words to get her to forgive him. Sadly, it's an act of selfishness rather than selflessness.

What he should have given her instead was raw, emotional honesty. He should've owned his mistakes, his impulsiveness, his cruelty. And he should've said that he hurt her because he was hurting. That he always expects to be hurt by the people he loves, and he thought her betraying him was inevitable. So he saw what he expected to see instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt. He judged and convicted her based on his parents' treatment of him, not on how she treated him.

He should've expressed a massive amount of remorse for hurting her, realized that he'd acted like his mom. Said that Jackie deserves a helluva lot better than that, than him. And then tell her he doesn't want to lose her. That's why he acted out like he did -- which ended up being the reason he lost her. But he totally understands and accepts if she can't trust him anymore. That he won't push her. That he'll let her go if that's what she wants.

And if what she wants is time, then he'll give that to her, too. He'll wait for her -- to a reasonable extent -- until she tells him whether or not they can heal their relationship.

[Forwood4Bamon]

i'm still not sure how I feel about J/H. need to rewatch. From what I saw, they're ok...

[msstock87]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) Right? And the writers do the same thing to Jackie after Hyde sleeps with the nurse. At the start of season 6, the show -- through Hyde's attitude -- makes a false equivalency between Jackie pitting Hyde and Kelso against each other in "Celebration Day" (5x25) for her affection and the spiteful, passive-aggressive way Hyde chooses to break up with her (I don't consider it cheating since Hyde has no intention of staying in a relationship with Jackie afterward, but it's just as bad -- and way nastier). Not once does Hyde (or the show) refer to Hyde sleeping with the nurse in "The Kids Are Alright" (6x01) and "Join Together" (6x02). Hyde should continue to show remorse, but he seems to have almost no self-awareness. He acts like Jackie's behavior in "Celebration Day" is a magnitude worse than what he does in "You Shook Me" (5x22), to the point of expecting her to apologize first. No. Just no. Hyde's apology in "Nobody's Fault but Mine" (5x23) is subpar, too. He expects Jackie to forgive him because it was a "stupid, one-time thing". Instead of focusing on how he hurt her, he focuses on how he doesn't want to lose her. Although the initial part of his apology definitely has the tone of remorse, the fact she doesn't forgive him on his timeline -- on the spot -- shifts him into selfishness and entitlement. Telling him that he loves her in that episode is also manipulative. The show leads us to believe that this is the first time he ever says this to her. He tries to use the power and lure of expressing those words to get her to forgive him. Sadly, it's an act of selfishness rather than selflessness. What he should have given her instead was raw, emotional honesty. He should've owned his mistakes, his impulsiveness, his cruelty. And he should've said that he hurt her because he was hurting. That he always expects to be hurt by the people he loves, and he thought her betraying him was inevitable. So he saw what he expected to see instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt. He judged and convicted her based on his parents' treatment of him, not on how she treated him. He should've expressed a massive amount of remorse for hurting her, realized that he'd acted like his mom. Said that Jackie deserves a helluva lot better than that, than him. And then tell her he doesn't want to lose her. That's why he acted out like he did -- which ended up being the reason he lost her. But he totally understands and accepts if she can't trust him anymore. That he won't push her. That he'll let her go if that's what she wants. And if what she wants is time, then he'll give that to her, too. He'll wait for her -- to a reasonable extent -- until she tells him whether or not they can heal their relationship.

Such good points Lisa and I agree. As much as I love Jackie/Hyde, the show made it look like their breakup in season five was Jackie's fault and that she owed Hyde an apology. I am glad they got back together in season six obviously, but they needed to show Hyde feeling more remorse, working to get Jackie's trust back. Not the other way around.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by pandiexjeyton (View Post) i'm still not sure how I feel about J/H. need to rewatch. From what I saw, they're ok...

If you big-time ship Jackie/Kelso, you likely won't be into J/H, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by msstock87 (View Post) Such good points Lisa

Thanks, Colleen!

Originally Posted by msstock87 (View Post) and I agree. As much as I love Jackie/Hyde, the show made it look like their breakup in season five was Jackie's fault and that she owed Hyde an apology. I am glad they got back together in season six obviously, but they needed to show Hyde feeling more remorse, working to get Jackie's trust back. Not the other way around.

Yes, the show was terrible at writing Jackie and Hyde's reconciliations. Once they were reconciled, we got good eps for them. But the actual reconciliation episodes are bad.

[Forwood4Bamon]

there are actually people who like both J/H and J/K. The only one I'm neutral on is Eric/Donna.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by pandiexjeyton (View Post) there are actually people who like both J/H and J/K. The only one I'm neutral on is Eric/Donna.

Interesting. I usually find a clear divide between Jackie/Kelso shippers and Jackie/Hyde shippers since Jackie being in a relationship with either Kelso or Hyde means she's not in a relationship with the other (I say, stating the obvious ).

Originally Posted by pandiexjeyton (View Post) The only one I'm neutral on is Eric/Donna.

Is it because you don't like the characters, find their relationship boring, or C: none of the above?

[Forwood4Bamon]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) Interesting. I usually find a clear divide between Jackie/Kelso shippers and Jackie/Hyde shippers since Jackie being in a relationship with either Kelso or Hyde means she's not in a relationship with the other (I say, stating the obvious ). Is it because you don't like the characters, find their relationship boring, or C: none of the above?

um, well...that's tough....sometimes their actions and yes how many breakups?

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by pandiexjeyton (View Post) um, well...that's tough....sometimes their actions and yes how many breakups?

Only one break up, although it's two if one counts season 8 (which I don't ).

Basically, they annoyed you? If so, you're in good company since they annoyed their friends, too.

[Forwood4Bamon]

Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop (View Post) Only one break up, although it's two if one counts season 8 (which I don't ). Basically, they annoyed you? If so, you're in good company since they annoyed their friends, too.

yes. I have only rewatched season 1.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by pandiexjeyton (View Post) yes. I have only rewatched season 1.

Aw. I think seasons 1, 2, and 5 are their best. But they definitely have quite a bit of conflict in season 1 as they figure out the transition from friends to romance.