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Old 02-10-2017, 07:36 AM
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Forbidden Ship (Eric/Jackie) #11: Because They're Co-Conspirators




Welcome to the Forbidden Dark Alliance. This thread is for our non-canon couple that we love.



*Rules*

No bashing. You don't like them, don't post.



~Forbidden Shippers~

1. Rhiannon
2. Chris (jackiehydelover)
3. ~*8Kay8*~
4. Rory (MilaKunisLover)
5. Kitty Burkhart
6. Rain Sierra
7. Jess (SpunkiiMonkii7078)
8. Verk
9. Ash (xxcozmicstar)
10. varjak-golightly
11. Sherry (Sadeyes9074)
12. 4brathan&brucas
13. effortlesslyEPiC
14. .A.
15. ellen-cheerleaderx
16. resplendence
17. kassandrajones
18. JackieBagsHyde
19. Nerenafan
20. LuckyRabbit
21. stephluvvsyou
22. RickyandChucklover1
23. Ria (Pickle-weasel!)
24. iSmitchie
25. iSamantha-HippieAtHeart
26. padfootsprincess02











Jackie and Eric Song List

1) "You're Beautiful" by James Blunt
2) "Help" by The Beatles
3) "Can't Stop" by Maroon 5
4) "Teenage Dirtbag" by Wheatus
5) "I Won’t Say I’m In Love" by Susan Egan
6) "The Judge's Daughter" by Green Day
7) "She’s Every Woman" by Garth Brooks
8) "Break Me, Shake Me" by Savage Garden
9) "Strange and Beautiful" by Aqua Lung
10) "Girl All the Bad Guys Want" by Bowling For Soup
11) "I’ve Got a Crush On You" by Julie London
12) "What I Go to School For" by Jonas Brothers
13) "I Want You to Want Me" by Cheap Trick
14) "Lips Of An Angel" by Hinder
15) "Secret" by Heart
16) "I Can't Be Your Friend Anymore" by Rushlow
17) "Disease" by Matchbox Twenty
18) "Crash and Burn" by Savage Garden
19) "For You to Notice" by Dashboard Confessional
20) "I Already Do" by Chely Wright
21) "Crazy For You" by Madonna
22) "I Think I Love You" by David Cassidy
23) "Close To You" by The Carpenters
24) "Fantasy" by Mariah Carey
25) "I Want to Hold Your Hand" by The Beatles
26) "I Can Love You Like That" lyrics by All-4-One
27) "For the Restless" by Tom McRae
28) "Crazy for This Girl" by Evan and Jaron
29) "She's So High" by Tal Bachman
30) "Dreaming of You" by Selena
31) "The Secrets in the Telling" by Dashboard Confessional
32) "Hungry Eyes" by Eric Carmen











Possible Thread Titles:

Because They Posed Together in Wedding Attire
Because She Knows How He Was Raised
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Last edited by MistyMountainHop; 04-21-2018 at 08:07 PM
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:43 AM
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TFTNT, Lulu!
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:45 AM
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop
Interesting analysis. Also interesting that one wouldn't get tired of Eric being insecure and/or disrespectful of her in most of those episode (save, perhaps, "Backstage Pass," where Donna acts out passive-aggressively after a year of dealing with Eric's insecurity). Rather, the onus is put onto Donna for reacting to his behavior.
S3: Speaking for myself, I think in the beginning of the season, it's a lot easier to get frustrated with Eric for the things he says. But as the season goes on, I get more frustrated with Donna. A lot of that is because she reminds me of a friend I have who always had problems with their significant other. She was often justified in her anger and I would be on her side, but after so many times, I would get annoyed and just be like, "Okay, why don't you break up with them?!" It's another reason why their break-up in "The Promise Ring" feels so cathartic.

I also feel that the writers often wrote Donna getting angry just to write Donna getting angry. Her anger at Eric in episodes like "Too Old to Trick or Treat, Too Young to Die" and "Ice Shack", while realistic and in line with the behavior of a 17-year-old, was ridiculously unprovoked. It doesn't help that the narrative never really calls her out on it and it does cheapen the instances where Donna has valid reasons to be pissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistyMountainHop
I definitely don't see that. Laurie enjoys sex, period. Almost doesn't matter for her with whom. Jackie, though, has to feel emotionally connected to someone to have sex with him. For Jackie, sex is an expression of love and emotional intimacy. For Laurie, sex might be a substitute for love and emotional intimacy. Or it's simply an adrenaline rush because she gets bored easily.

Laurie picks on people because she feels so badly about herself. She doesn't value much about herself (which is bizarre, considering who her parents are), and she became a bully. Jackie, on the other hand, is highly judgmental, thanks to her upbringing. She's also vain and feels a need to control her boyfriends -- likely because her dad was rarely home.
I just see Laurie as road-not-taken for Jackie because it would have been SO easy for Jackie to become like Laurie, but Jackie refuses to let herself be. I think Jackie's disdain for Laurie comes from, not only the whole Kelso affair, but because she grew up around Lauries. Her mother is very Laurie-like. The Jackie/Laurie interactions in "Vanstock" and "Laurie Moves Out", in my opinion, gives us a lot of insight into what Jackie's interactions were like with her non-Donna female friends. She gets along with them and bonds with them over superficial things, but at heart she still doesn't trust them and looks down on them ("I think my good taste was really rubbing off on you!").

Laurie strikes me as the type of girl who tried to fit in so hard amongst her peers in high school/college that she sort of lost herself in her persona. Her S1 characterization shows that there was a lot more to Laurie than her Promiscuous Trouble-maker act suggested, but she lost that because of desires to fit in and no one around her really challenging her to be better.

Whereas Jackie was the type of girl who didn't want to fit in with the other girls, she wanted to be BETTER than them. I think a lot of Jackie's attitudes toward sex came from the way the lesser (in Jackie's opinion) women around her used it. And just as sleeping around can help you build popularity and fit in with people, it can also destroy your reputation. I think Jackie picked up on that and, in addition to issues with her mother, it explained a lot of her shaming and disdain towards women who were more sexual. I think Laurie wanted to be the same as everyone else to validate her feelings of not being good enough, but I think Jackie wanted to differentiate herself from everyone else. She didn't want to be another Pam Macy or another Laurie. She didn't want to be just like her mother. She wanted to be better ("It's not enough that we know I'm better than everyone else, I want the world to know!").

And whereas Laurie lost herself in the Promiscuous Troublemaker act, Jackie doesn't get lost in the Controlling Ice Queen persona she puts on because she had people around her challenging her and motivating her to be better--not in the sense of being better than other women--but just being a better person, in general, than who she could have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra Luehr
I think of Eric being more of a core character than a moral center, because as soon as he left, everything felt off-kilter. :/
Yeah, perhaps this is a better way to sum it. While not the moral center, I do think Eric might have been the core of the group. It's his basement, it's his family that essentially adopts the other members of the group. And I get the sense that it was him who brought the core members of the group (him/Donna/Hyde/Kelso) together. For instance, I can't imagine Little!Hyde and Little!Kelso becoming friends. I have a head canon that it was them being mutual friends of Eric that brought them together. And Hyde seemed to sort of take over as 'friend adopter' as they got older. He was the one who brought Fez into the group, and he was the first one to show genuine compassion to Jackie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra Luehr
Maybe part of Eric's animosity stemmed from Red's appreciation for Jackie? Like, she barely had to do anything to win his favor, while Eric pretty much struggled for Red's affection and approval his entire life. Granted, the show (unfortunately) didn't continue the Jackie/Forman dynamic for long, so that might just be speculation on my part. At the very least, it'd play into the sibling rivalry dynamic you like to equate to them.
Eric's animosity to Jackie stemming from Red's affection of her is something I've never thought about, and another thing that also connects her to Laurie in Eric's view. You know, I'd also like to think that Eric's increased meanness to Jackie when Laurie's not around is because he misses his sister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentGrasshopper
That was truly an atrocious example of misogyny, I hated it. I didn't love any of the characters myself, but the amount Skyler got was ridiculous. Plus, the kind of hate which was clearly motivited by a general lack of concern for women or plain hate towards them.
Yes. It got to the point where the creators even called out those fans on the show by having Walter Jr. label her being a "bitch". Of course, it seemed that those fans didn't get the hint because the misogyny and hatred of her character only got worse as the show went on.

TFTNT, by the way!
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriosityShell (View Post)
I just see Laurie as road-not-taken for Jackie because it would have been SO easy for Jackie to become like Laurie
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriosityShell (View Post)
I think a lot of Jackie's attitudes toward sex came from the way the lesser (in Jackie's opinion) women around her used it. And just as sleeping around can help you build popularity and fit in with people, it can also destroy your reputation. I think Jackie picked up on that and, in addition to issues with her mother, it explained a lot of her shaming and disdain towards women who were more sexual.
I'd say Jackie was a romantic and believed in romantic love. She wanted a dream relationship (look at her fantasy about what she wants her first time w/Kelso to be like). I'm sure Jackie's circle of friends, outside the basement, were judgmental of girls who enjoyed commitment-free sex with multiple partners. So she absorbed and expressed her community's POV.
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Last edited by MistyMountainHop; 02-12-2017 at 08:42 AM
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:08 AM
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Wow, I sure missed a lot! TFTNT, and *slips on fake glasses since I don't need them* Time to read! lol

I can't quote any closed threads, so here's me replying this way:

MistyMountainHop:

Quote:
In the show's earliest episodes, Jackie is generally obnoxious to everyone in the basement but Donna and Kelso. She pesters Eric until he "admits" the Fonz could beat up Bruce Lee. She gives Eric attitude when he brings her a Piggly Wiggly Cream Soda, the only kind of soda in his fridge, and she wanted something different -- something not in the house. She monopolizes the basement stereo, etc. For Eric, especially early on, he resents Jackie's presence. She changes the dynamic in the basement, especially because her attitude, behavior, and beliefs clash with Eric's and those of his friends'.

Basically, to Eric she's a disruptive presence, and I don't think his dislike of her goes much deeper than that.
Yeah, I remember Jackie being an obnoxious brat at first, but I was an English major, so we're always like, "MUST...FIND...HIDDEN MEANING!" in everything. If the writers had been focused more on character development than punchlines, I feel like my theory is plausible. Though I guess just about anything's plausible, since there was never any definitive proof either way.

Quote:
Of course, the showrunners didn't realize how big the fandom was for J/H (man, they didn't realize so much ). During tapings, Jud Tylor (Sam) got booed by the audience whenever she was in a scene, and the producers had to tell the audience to quit it, or they'd be kicked out.
Wow, that poor actress. :/ She was a lousy character, IMO, but she can't help that. Now that I know the writers hated Jackie, her arc in S8 makes more sense since it was just awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriosityShell (View Post)
S3: Yeah, perhaps this is a better way to sum it. While not the moral center, I do think Eric might have been the core of the group. It's his basement, it's his family that essentially adopts the other members of the group. And I get the sense that it was him who brought the core members of the group (him/Donna/Hyde/Kelso) together. For instance, I can't imagine Little!Hyde and Little!Kelso becoming friends. I have a head canon that it was them being mutual friends of Eric that brought them together. And Hyde seemed to sort of take over as 'friend adopter' as they got older. He was the one who brought Fez into the group, and he was the first one to show genuine compassion to Jackie.

Eric's animosity to Jackie stemming from Red's affection of her is something I've never thought about, and another thing that also connects her to Laurie in Eric's view. You know, I'd also like to think that Eric's increased meanness to Jackie when Laurie's not around is because he misses his sister.

Yes. It got to the point where the creators even called out those fans on the show by having Walter Jr. label her being a "bitch". Of course, it seemed that those fans didn't get the hint because the misogyny and hatred of her character only got worse as the show went on.
Your thoughts on Jackie vs. Laura are very interesting! I've seen similar thoughts on Tumblr, but not so much about Laurie as Jackie's peers, where she was possibly treated horribly as a kid, and then had this idea that she was going to outdo everyone around her. But the idea of seeing her mom in Laurie is interesting, and something I'll have to watch for to see if I agree while rewatching.

Yeah, I always thought that was funny! Like, I get that the Formans have affection for the gang, but it always struck me as funny that they still came over to hang out in Eric's basement WITHOUT Eric. lol But yeah, that's true, Eric probably did bring everyone together at some point during their childhood. Eric and Hyde always struck me as being the closest, so they were probably friends first.

LOL, that'd be an unexpected turn of events! And if Jackie accused Eric of that, he'd be so outraged. Though Jackie would never want herself compared to Laurie in any way, so that obviously wouldn't happen. haha

I remember that! In my past fandom, someone who watched Breaking Bad mentioned how Walter Jr. called Skyler a bitch, which is frustrating, because a lot of writers/producers listen to the fans and give them what they want to see. That's the biggest drawback to social media, IMO, because it's made watching TV shows almost unbearable sometimes.
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Last edited by MistyMountainHop; 03-08-2017 at 08:17 AM Reason: Fixed the quoting. :)
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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zen jackie (ノ^ヮ^)ノ*:・゚✧
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:19 AM
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Eric makes such a weird face in that scene.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:24 AM
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Many, many weird faces...
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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Eric makes another weird face in an early S1 episode when he brings Jackie a type of soda she doesn't want. It's such a weird smile.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:56 PM
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I guess the next thread title for this ship will be 'Because she makes him smile weird'?
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grazzhopper (View Post)
I guess the next thread title for this ship will be 'Because she makes him smile weird'?
Weirdly, to be grammatically correct, but it could be.

Now that would be a bizarre E/J fic.

Jackie enters the room.

Fez [to Eric]: Why do you look like that?

Eric: Look like what?

Fez: Like gravity has left your lips.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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Fez is a true poet.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:01 AM
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He is. Eric should take some tips from him. Jackie would appreciate some poetry.
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:26 AM
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Now that would be a conflict for Fez, assuming he still wants to be with Jackie as well in this sorta AU. Should he help Eric with poetry to win Jackie over or will he sabotage him?
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