[HipHopKingMike]

Personally I thought Kelly was more tolerable in S7 and S8 but then I disliked her again in the last 2 seasons.
As for Donna, never liked her in any season

[Crystal Clear]

Originally Posted by Booklover85 (View Post) For some reason in s5, Donna and Kelly became more unlikable than usual. Kelly had always been unlikable at times, but she became worse this season.

I kinda liked the realism of Donna attempting to be more grown-up this season, but ultimately failing and being drawn into the abusive thrall of Ray Pruit. She clearly chose him in an attempt to prove that she didn't need to be with the ideal guy who would impress her parents. Ray was her attempt to rebel against her parents and prove that she could get over David. Was she naive about him? For sure. But I do think she really tried to make it work with him, which only made the outcome more tragic.

As for Kelly, I liked her for the most of the season. She was hilarious in the UNREAL WORLD episode and very sympathetic during the Fire storyline.

I would say I only hated her when she cheated on Brandon at the end of 5x20. It was the most OOC moment I'd seen from her in ages and a really cheap move to try and bring Dylan back into an unnecessary love triangle.

[Booklover85]

I wished that Dylan and Emberlee (the woman who was wearing Kelly's old bathrobe in Under the Influence) became a couple for at least this season. They've got the most sizzling chemistry and best of all, it pissed off Kelly to no end! 😁

[Crystal Clear]

^ Ah yes, that somewhat controversial scene in episode 2 where Dylan brings the woman from the bar home and starts doing shots off her to make Kelly uncomfortable.

I had to laugh at the irony of Kelly saying "I can't believe I came here to apologize to you" Apologize for what? Trying to be in a healthy relationship with someone who treats her right for once?

If only she knew that Dylan had slept with Brenda just a day or so after he and Kelly had broken up... Dylan was quite the major hypocrite in season 5.

[yulan]

Swipe for all parts:

[yulan]

This was a sweet scene:

[Crystal Clear]

The Christmas episode for season 5 was SO lovely.

Brandon seeing the extent of Kelly's burn injuries and realizing why her mood had been so low, and Andrea's problem with Jesse and their baby being resolved by Dylan's surprise appearance at their house. It all came together very nicely

AND Dylan had a conversation with Iris! That was a much-needed moment. Especially after the sadness of 5x01 where Dylan broke the answering machine after hearing her disappointment that their money had been taken by Kevin and Suzanne.

[Crystal Clear]

I'm on a full re-watch, up to 5x08 but I'm still reeling from the awful dialogue for Donna in 5x02:

Valerie: "That's Brenda's Dylan?"
Donna: "Kelly's Dylan."

Can she just NOT? So much for Donna telling Brenda "you're my best friend" in Shannen's last episode. Brenda confided in Donna in season 4 that she still had feelings for Dylan. Am I the only one who thinks Donna would be the LAST person to call Dylan "Kelly's"?

This is the same person who asked Kelly in 5x01 "are you back together with Dylan?" to which she replied "why, do I look depressed?"

I just can't. It's notable that some writers in season 5 continued emphasizing Dylan and Brenda's love (such as Karen Rosin in 5x07 when Val says she can't be Brenda) but then you have writers like Chip Johannessen who acted as if Brenda meant squat to him.

Then again, he's the same writer who wrote the Senior Poll episode so I guess that says it all.

[yulan]

I'm on a full re-watch, up to 5x08 but I'm still reeling from the awful dialogue for Donna in 5x02: Valerie: "That's Brenda's Dylan?" Donna: "Kelly's Dylan." Can she just NOT? So much for Donna telling Brenda "you're my best friend" in Shannen's last episode. Brenda confided in Donna in season 4 that she still had feelings for Dylan. Am I the only one who thinks Donna would be the LAST person to call Dylan "Kelly's"?

Yeah, they showed they wanted Brenda/Shannen to be forgotten instantly. I mean, we immediately had two characters in which lives she was very important - Dylan and Donna - belittling her importance in their lives from like, the first two episodes of S5. It also showed they planned AGAIN to turn Kelly/Dylan retroactively into something that they were not, and shove them down our throats an entire season.

This is the same person who asked Kelly in 5x01 "are you back together with Dylan?" to which she replied "why, do I look depressed?"

Ok, that was actually pretty awesome

I just can't. It's notable that some writers in season 5 continued emphasizing Dylan and Brenda's love (such as Karen Rosin in 5x07 when Val says she can't be Brenda) but then you have writers like Chip Johannessen who acted as if Brenda meant squat to him.

I think they had a general directive to belittle Brenda as much as possible and erase her importance in lives of people she meant the most to - her family, Dylan, Donna, Kelly. I don't think individual writers had much saying in it. It was like "let's symbolicaly killl Brenda, work on it, everybody" project. The character who mentioned her the most was paradoxically a new character, Valerie, which was a way to show she was supposed to be her replacement, I guess. She mentioned her more than her family and friends (I think?!) although she had not seen her for years by that point.

Now back to the Christmas scene I posted, I really like it. I do not remember I liked it so much first time I watched. I like Dylan with the baby, he is so genuinely cute. And I really like that Kelly looks at him with the baby and then at Brandon smiling, wanting to share with him that moment of Dylan rejoining them, and they both seemed happy. To me, it is really not a triangle moment, but showing they were all first and foremost friends. And that was beautiful. I like Andrea/Dylan interaction too. And the moments you listed with Kelly/Brandon and Dylan talking to Iris.

[Lilac4381]

Yeah, they showed they wanted Brenda/Shannen to be forgotten instantly. I mean, we immediately had two characters in which lives she was very important - Dylan and Donna - belittling her importance in their lives from like, the first two episodes of S5. It also showed they planned AGAIN to turn Kelly/Dylan retroactively into something that they were not, and shove them down our throats an entire season.

One of the lines that drives me the craziest is episode 2 when Brandon comes by and finds a drinking Dylan and is preparing to tell him about he and Kelly dating. Brandon mentions Brenda and Dylan flippantly says Brenda feels like so long ago and part of high school and that basically, only Brandon and Kelly matter to him. B*tch, please! You were sleeping with Brenda and giving her longing looks like 2 months earlier before your money got stolen and you could no longer stand Kelly. It was as ridiculous as Donna referring to Dylan as "Kelly's Dylan." Brenda and Donna were quite close in season 4, right up till the end and she knew how much Brenda still loved him and what kind of history they had.

I understand the writers wanted the audience to transition away from Shannen/Brenda but I think it could have been handled a whole lot better, properly acknowledged the loss of Brenda in everyone's lives, without taking away the momentum of bringing on Val.

[Crystal Clear]

^ I definitely agree with you about that stupid moment of Dylan in 5x02 when he says Brenda seems like "someone I knew in high school"

In fact, doesn't that make Brenda's scariest thought in season 3 come true, when she said before Jack's funeral "one day, I'll just be another girl you knew in high school"? Gosh, I hate that so much. Especially as Dylan insisted that would NEVER happen.

Originally Posted by yulan (View Post) Now back to the Christmas scene I posted, I really like it. I do not remember I liked it so much first time I watched. I like Dylan with the baby, he is so genuinely cute. And I really like that Kelly looks at him with the baby and then at Brandon smiling, wanting to share with him that moment of Dylan rejoining them, and they both seemed happy. To me, it is really not a triangle moment, but showing they were all first and foremost friends.

That definitely was one of the best episodes of the season it's interesting how Andrea and Jesse have some terrible moments together over their disagreements about baby Hannah's religious ties, but then the gang barge through to their home dressed up as Santa - as if they instinctively knew that Andrea would be struggling as a new mother and wife.

It did show that she was never gone from their thoughts, even though she wasn't always around at College due to her commitments as a mother.

It also proved to me that the writers made a mistake in getting rid of Andrea. There was still a place for her as part of the group, even as a mother.

[yulan]

It is interesting that the season opened with the revelation about Donna getting angry at Kelly for her lack of support and solidarity when David cheated and moved out from their flat. Donna forgave her, but then, if I remember correctly, Kelly was a matchmaker for their new flatmate Clare and David - basically knowing they would bang in their flat and that might hurt or at least be uncomfortable for Donna. That was pretty inconsiderate. Donna, as a "nice girl", was just going with what everybody said, but only in the soap world that could be ok, nowhere else. Clare and David were aware that they had sex an earshot from Donna, and the lack of sex was precisely a problem in her relationship with David. They were inconsiderate to her. I mean, it was enough David was coming to the flat already. It is not a matter whether she was hurt or not, it was simply not ok to her. And of course she did not protest and accepted everything, meek that she was, especially from S5 onwards.

Given how Kelly, Clare and David (people closest to her in the gang at that point) treated her, and also Felice, no wonder that she's become such a doormat and that Ray happened to her with his abusive behavior, which she also accepted for quite awhile. Had Brenda stayed, I do not think it would have been possible.

[Crystal Clear]

Originally Posted by yulan (View Post) Given how Kelly, Clare and David (people closest to her in the gang at that point) treated her, and also Felice, no wonder that she's become such a doormat and that Ray happened to her with his abusive behavior, which she also accepted for quite awhile. Had Brenda stayed, I do not think it would have been possible.

Yeah, that's a good point. There were a lot of separate events happening to Donna over the course of the College years which culminated together and made her abuse at the hands of Ray somewhat of an inevitable pattern of behavior.

In fact, I'd say it really began when she got caught getting wasted at Prom in season 3. That one instance of going off the rails made seem insignificant, but without Brandon rallying the School to support her, Donna's future happiness may have been so much bleaker.

The chaos with David in season 4 was definitely the stepping stone to her getting stuck in Ray's web. Both relationships were in large part about her rebelling against Felice, who liked neither of her boyfriends. Ray was worse of course, but David's betrayal clearly set Donna on a path of mistrust where love was concerned - until she meets Joe in season 6.

[yulan]

The chaos with David in season 4 was definitely the stepping stone to her getting stuck in Ray's web. Both relationships were in large part about her rebelling against Felice, who liked neither of her boyfriends. Ray was worse of course, but David's betrayal clearly set Donna on a path of mistrust where love was concerned - until she meets Joe in season 6.

I'd say her relationship with David in S4 has already set up a pattern, sadly, because he was so nervous, yelled at her and treated her pretty badly a good part of the time way before cheating, yet she accepted it. A boyfriend who physically abuses her was a logical next step.

I am interested in how you see her relationship with David as rebelling against Felice though I never saw Felice saying anything against David, just against sex before marriage. I think he suited her as a hypothetical son-in-law, sort of - he had a rich father.

[Crystal Clear]

Originally Posted by yulan (View Post) I am interested in how you see her relationship with David as rebelling against Felice though

I suppose in general, the whole idea that Donna knew David wanted to cross that line (to sex) with her for a long time and Donna had him wait - it felt like a huge nod to her knowing that she could disobey her mother's wishes whenever she wanted and just go for it. Which she does at the end of season 7.

Except in season 4, Donna stays true to her promise to her mother (even after Felice gives her permission for David to live with her) and that's when David has clearly had enough. He really believed Donna was held back from sex by Felice, but it is her own wish too.

I thought she deserved a lot of respect for displaying integrity there. But David was getting to the point of no return by not wanting to wait (for her) any longer.

I almost feel as if David cheating on her really proved Felice's point all along, about her belief that Donna waiting until marriage was extremely sensible.