[MeiTow]

Yes, I have arguments with my friend (who got me into SPN...along with my Cheese! *gives props to Kristy*) because she can't stand Sam. He's a whiny bitch. Or he can't do anything without Dean. Or he's all about let's question everything to death and then let the thing escape.

Believe me, I don't understand it either. I honestly think that most people like Dean's character more because he's someone we all wish we could be, even if just on occasion. He's brash, rude, and haughty. At the beginning he was almost dehumanized. He's grown a lot during the seasons.

The thing people don't seem to realize is that you can't have one without the other. Dean would be long since dust and bones without Sam's humanity and caution. Sam would hopelessly lost and frustrated without Dean's devil may care attitude.

I understand where you are coming from Gay. It is interesting to watch Sam evolve as the seasons go by but I don't feel he's evolving the right way. There is something inherently disheartening when someone with so much love and sensitivity toward others begins to become so jaded as to not care anymore. I think Sam is slowly heading in that direction and it's what he has feared the most for 2 1/2 seasons. It's ok to make mistakes and harden yourself to reality but when you turn away from what makes you you then there's a problem. Mystery Spot, anyone? It's what the trickster was trying to tell him. He's losing an intricate part of himself in his blind quest to keep his brother around at all costs.

[HappySquared]

Originally Posted by ROCKSTAR (View Post) Good post, Gay. I never understood the criticism that Sam was being rude or cruel in S1. He was in terrible pain, his dreams had been shattered and he was coping with it by not dealing with it, which later on he realized. I always get offended when I read that Sam didn't care about his family in S1. That's not my interpretation at all.

I found myself nodding so much with your post Nikki. Sam may have felt that everything that was happening with their family stems out from his younger years when the YED visited him and killing their mother in the process. We (even Sam, Dean or John) don't know yet the exact reason why this happened (maybe S4 will have answers), Sam is clueless. Let's not forger he's the youngest and his dad didn't give him the responsibility that was given to Dean. He had so many questions but the answers given were so few. All he knew was his mom died trying to save him and that his father became obssessed in finding out the truth and killing this demon. They were taught to fight, carry guns and basically grow up quick. If I were in his shoes, I'd be so full of guilt, questions and I'd probably run away as well. The thing is - he was weak, yes I guess. He wanted to forget all about those stuff, he wanted to be normal. He was weak.

Originally Posted by MeiTow The thing people don't seem to realize is that you can't have one without the other. Dean would be long since dust and bones without Sam's humanity and caution. Sam would hopelessly lost and frustrated without Dean's devil may care attitude

.

Aw, I love that you mentioned this. So true. They are like the Ying and Yang, trhey balance each other.

I understand where you are coming from Gay. It is interesting to watch Sam evolve as the seasons go by but I don't feel he's evolving the right way. There is something inherently disheartening when someone with so much love and sensitivity toward others begins to become so jaded as to not care anymore. I think Sam is slowly heading in that direction and it's what he has feared the most for 2 1/2 seasons. It's ok to make mistakes and harden yourself to reality but when you turn away from what makes you you then there's a problem. Mystery Spot, anyone? It's what the trickster was trying to tell him. He's losing an intricate part of himself in his blind quest to keep his brother around at all costs.

I understand, it isn't good at all that Sam is evolving darkly. Yes, his humanity is being overshadowed by the feeling of love lost and hope is gone aura. Corruption is at its best when a person is in deep pain. I may be in the minority when I say I do like where the Sam story is heading. I wanted him to break down and lose all hope. Then slowly learn from his mistakes. I wanted him to learn it the hard way, because with it comes the realization that being human is okay, but how you consume is the question. Hurting is human; wnating revenge is also human. It's how you react to it matters. I wanted Sam to find it all out and I guess yes, I love angst, so that's just me.

[MeiTow]

I understand, it isn't good at all that Sam is evolving darkly. Yes, his humanity is being overshadowed by the feeling of love lost and hope is gone aura. Corruption is at its best when a person is in deep pain. I may be in the minority when I say I do like where the Sam story is heading. I wanted him to break down and lose all hope. Then slowly learn from his mistakes. I wanted him to learn it the hard way, because with it comes the realization that being human is okay, but how you consume is the question. Hurting is human; wnating revenge is also human. It's how you react to it matters. I wanted Sam to find it all out and I guess yes, I love angst, so that's just me.

True, but that doesn't mean I have to like it! Tee hee. According to Kripke we only have two seasons left. Is our boy going to be able to turn himself back around in that amount of time? I'm not sure how many years play out in one season...I would assume one year but then, Dean drives everywhere and that takes time; but it's hard to "find it all out" and then reverse it in a couple of years. I guess what it amounts to is I don't mind Sammy going dark for a period and realizing what he needs to learn and driving himself to become what he once was but does the show have enough time to do that and make it believable. If not, it will crush my heart to no end because, to me, Sammy would be dead. Kripke wants to end the series on a high note. My friend and I were talking about how, in her view, there is only one way to truly end the series and that's with both boys dying. She doesn't see that he could just leave it open and not end it at all but I do have to agree with her that I don't think it could "truly" end any other way.

[HappySquared]

Ah yes, of course, we can have different views. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Sammy's story will end on a positively. Though, when Kripke said he wants to end it on a high note, it could be that he's also thinking about both boys dying. Oh no! Just the sound of it makes me weak. I guess, I just have to keep an open mind about the endless possibilities.

[Captain Oatsocute]

I think Eric has it all planned out and if it doesn't all fit into 5 seasons then fingers crossed we get another season out of it.

But knowing supernatural quite a lot can and will probably happen in s4 alone. And pretty much anything could happen.

[ROCKSTAR]

Great points, guys!

People forget all the times Sam saved Dean in S1 too. He is very capable on his own, as is Dean. But their emotional attachment to each other makes them a superior team, also their styles are very different and compliment each other.

In Scarecrow when Dean is trying to convince the couple to leave town, he fails and laughs and tells them that one look at his brother's puppy dog eyes and they would've bought it.

They both bave their strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand the argument that Sam is weak, either. He's strong and focused and very passionate about the things and people he cares about.

They're both fun, incredible and tortured characters with crappy lives. But they make the most of it and take pride in their job. Not to mention, the fact that they do it to save people's lives, that's a huge part of their personality.

[Captain Oatsocute]

Originally Posted by ROCKSTAR (View Post) People forget all the times Sam saved Dean in S1 too. He is very capable on his own, as is Dean. But their emotional attachment to each other makes them a superior team, also their styles are very different and compliment each other.

They're good on their own but 100 times better as a team.

In Scarecrow when Dean is trying to convince the couple to leave town, he fails and laughs and tells them that one look at his brother's puppy dog eyes and they would've bought it.

I love that line. Sam is certainly the people person out of the duo. Although they kinda seem to be on the same level now. Perhaps I'm just seeing things.

They both bave their strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand the argument that Sam is weak, either. He's strong and focused and very passionate about the things and people he cares about.

Sam's certainly not weak. The only thing that makes him weak is his love for Dean and the risks he will take to keep him alive! And the same goes for Dean.

They're both fun, incredible and tortured characters with crappy lives. But they make the most of it and take pride in their job. Not to mention, the fact that they do it to save people's lives, that's a huge part of their personality.

I hated it when Bella tried to lessen this by saying they're "a stones throw away from being a serial killer."

[HappySquared]

Sam's certainly not weak. The only thing that makes him weak is his love for Dean and the risks he will take to keep him alive! And the same goes for Dean.

Aw, so true.

I think when I said he was weak was that at first (s1) he wanted to run from it all. He just wanted to shrug it all off and pretended that it didn't happen. He cannot face or live to remember that his family is like this because they love him so much. It was because of this love that his mother died and his father got obsessed in hunting and killing these demons.

Though, yep, I agree in Sammy as strong in terms of him being focused on saving lives.

It all boils down to (again) showing the weakness if it concerns the family.

[ROCKSTAR]

Family is certainly all of the Winchester's weaknesses. Even Mama Winchester managed to off her soul protecting Sam and Dean. It's in their genes!

Originally Posted by Captain Oatsocute (View Post) They're good on their own but 100 times better as a team.

No doubt. They make an amazing team.

[HappySquared]

Yep, they are the perfect example of 'blood is thicker than water'

[faith_in_Faith]

They both bave their strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand the argument that Sam is weak, either. He's strong and focused and very passionate about the things and people he cares about.

I really can't see him as weak, either. But his skin is softer so to speak.And he wears his heart on a sleve, at least in S1. But that doesn't make him weak. I think that's one of his best qualities, actually and one of the things that saves Dean, save them both, because if they both bottled up the way Dean does more of the time, they would both be screwed.

And in a way, Sam have "grown up" and I love him for it, but a part of me bleeds for him and Dean, because they both worked so hard for him to be able to stay "softer." And I don't mean soft as in weak.

[MeiTow]

I was just telling Kristy today that the boys remind of the songs Sisters from White Christmas.

YouTube - Sisters

[Captain Oatsocute]

^ That is priceless! I need to see the boys doing that act now. Feathers and all.

Originally Posted by faith_in_Faith (View Post) I really can't see him as weak, either. But his skin is softer so to speak.And he wears his heart on a sleve, at least in S1. But that doesn't make him weak. I think that's one of his best qualities, actually and one of the things that saves Dean, save them both, because if they both bottled up the way Dean does more of the time, they would both be screwed. And in a way, Sam have "grown up" and I love him for it, but a part of me bleeds for him and Dean, because they both worked so hard for him to be able to stay "softer." And I don't mean soft as in weak.

I know exactly what you mean Faith and ITA! Sam has certainly started to harden his shell and I understand why he's done it but I want our great big softy back.

[faith_in_Faith]

Originally Posted by Captain Oatsocute (View Post) ^ That is priceless! I need to see the boys doing that act now. Feathers and all. I know exactly what you mean Faith and ITA! Sam has certainly started to harden his shell and I understand why he's done it but I want our great big softy back.

A part of me wants that, too, but at the same time I realize he needs to get a harder shell to survie and to protect Dean. I jus hope it won't get, too hard... And I don't want evil Sam! That would break my heart.

[Captain Oatsocute]

^ Aw! Protective Sammy. Well now I don't want Sam to be such a softy anymore. But he has to still let his big brother still save him sometimes as well, or poor Dean won;t know what to do with himself. And to evil Sammy!