Heroes - Heroes 4x09 "Shadowboxing" Discussion - Page 3

**Elenwyn** · 11-10-2009, 03:09 PM

This episode PWNED.

The HAITIAN SENSATION

He needs to have a mention in like, every episode. Just because he is awesome.

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POOR CLAIRE. Oh my God, every potential friend she has... just... she can't have them. I feel so, so sorry for her. She tries so hard to remain normal, and she can't even have a regular friend. Ohhhh Claaaire. They need to bring Zach back. He was the most consistent friend she ever had, even if he was only in S1.

WORD. Zach stood by her no matter what. I wish he was back

I don't blame Gretchen for wanting to get out of there but I didn't like her in this ep.

Sylar/Matt are absolutely amazing together. Their scenes are brilliant. The boys play off each other so well

SAMUEL/CLAIRE. No joke, I've been waiting since CC to see them interact, and it was SO worth it. The HRG/Claire fight is getting a little old, but it's kinda different this time round. Now she knows there's somewhere where she could be herself, not have to worry about losing friends, getting caught out and having to explain herself...it's appealing to all the specials. I kinda hope she gets drawn in just because I want more scenes of her and Samuel together

Petrelli bros. Oh, my boys. My lovely, fantabulous boys. I've missed you and your inappropriate touching and nuzzling

Other amazing mentions of the ep go to HRG for referencing Claude, and Sylar for calling Peter the "Italian Eagle Scout"

Next episode :/ I'm scared for what happens but it looks so good!

Oldrguy · 11-10-2009, 04:32 PM

Sorry I couldn't come on last night, I had an unbearable headache & pretty much went to bed right after the episode. Sooo...the show!
Is this the first time we heard the Haitian's name? His brother didn't use it last season? For some reason it came as a surprise to me! & I liked the way they did, with Claire just matter of factly just saying it.

I was basically right about Becky even if she isn't literally Samuel's niece. I just wish she didn't kill innocent people.

I take issue with that interpretation of Noah's picket fence comment, I took it as acknowledging that she might chose someone like Gretchen.

Gretchen's leaving...it's very easy for us to say that we would risk anything, go through any danger to be with the person we love...but in reality it isn't really that easy! Gretchen just got a lesson in what being involved with Claire would be like! & remember at this point, she's just "crushing", it wasn't to the point were they couldn't turn back! The fact is Claire is automatically a target for dangerous people & anyone she gets involved with whatever there gender would automatically be one as well! That's an awful lot to ask of anyone, & someone without powers especially!

I think I can explain Emma's power, just look up a character called "The Dazzler" who could turn sound into light/energy.

Peter is acting like a Hero this season, it's about time!

Matt/Syalr is reminding me, a bit to much of Scorpius/Crichton on "Farscape". But Matt's tricking Sylar into getting them shot totally ruled!

I'm not all that sure were the Carnival storyline is going at this point.

Lot of improvement this season!

Inesal · 11-10-2009, 05:51 PM

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POOR CLAIRE. Oh my God, every potential friend she has... just... she can't have them. I feel so, so sorry for her. She tries so hard to remain normal, and she can't even have a regular friend. Ohhhh Claaaire. They need to bring Zach back. He was the most consistent friend she ever had, even if he was only in S1.

Claire will be fine. This is Claire's journey and part of most filmed romances is not realizing how deeply you love someone until they are gone. To have Claire and Gretchen make love for the first time in this episode would have been a waste of the dramatic potential.

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I take issue with that interpretation of Noah's picket fence comment, I took it as acknowledging that she might chose someone like Gretchen.

Noah's line is "I want you to have everything. You deserve it. A social life. An education. The white picket fence. All of it."

Claire "As you said life just isn't that simple. Goodnight"

The white picket fence has long symbolized the perfect middle class suburban existence (the same one heavily critiqued in Mad Men every week and in the divisive Revolutionary Road). To a woman this would mean a husband and kids. Noah wants Claire to find fulfillment in her life. When he states that heteronormative term, I agree that he doesn't mean anything further than a want for Claire to find fulfillment (hence the 'unaware" tag). The thing is that for Claire her reaction shows someone who takes in that meaning and knows that is no longer what she seeks in terms of fulfillment (unlike earlier in the season where she constantly talked about living a "normal" life). For Claire to find fulfillment means Gretchen. There is an important element to this. Noah is being, as I said, unaware of what he is saying implies. However Noah's want is for his daughter to be fulfilled (he just doesn't know what Claire needs for that to happen). Compare this to Samuel who has decided what for Claire what she needs to be fulfilled (rejecting those without powers and being one with the carnival). Noah, for all of his caution with Claire, accepts Claire's decision that Gretchen not have her mind wiped. Samuel, on the other hand, wants to control Claire and has driven away (by proxy of his niece) the person Claire needs to find true fulfillment.

cmn24601 · 11-10-2009, 06:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Inesal (View Post)

Claire will be fine. This is Claire's journey and part of most filmed romances is not realizing how deeply you love someone until they are gone. To have Claire and Gretchen make love for the first time in this episode would have been a waste of the dramatic potential.

I actually really wasn't referring to just Gretchen. I'm referring to everything Claire's gone through as the seasons have progressed. Nobody's stuck around, really. Zach disappeared halfway through season one, and he was possibly the best friend she could ever have in her situation. West abandoned her in S2, and she was never close to those cheerleaders. Her family (primarily Noah) and Peter have been the only consistent people in her life, and even then... half of the time she hasn't been able to trust her father because of all the secrets he's been keeping, and Peter's not there because he's elsewhere living his own life on top of everything else (though I don't blame him for that at all; after all he's been through he deserves the bit of normalcy he can get).

And now Gretchen, the first potential friend (I know you want them to get together, but until it actually happens in the show I'm just remaining neutral on the subject) she's actually had since season one... she's left. With good reason, but she has. One more notch on her wooden pole of things that have fallen through because of her ability and what goes with it. :/

It's just... I don't know how Claire's getting through all this. Her lack of friends is just the tip of the iceberg of what this poor girl has had to go through -- and is still going through.

Oldrguy · 11-10-2009, 08:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Inesal (View Post)

Noah's line is "I want you to have everything. You deserve it. A social life. An education. The white picket fence. All of it."

Claire "As you said life just isn't that simple. Goodnight"

The white picket fence has long symbolized the perfect middle class suburban existence (the same one heavily critiqued in Mad Men every week and in the divisive Revolutionary Road). To a woman this would mean a husband and kids. Noah wants Claire to find fulfillment in her life. When he states that heteronormative term, I agree that he doesn't mean anything further than a want for Claire to find fulfillment (hence the 'unaware" tag). The thing is that for Claire her reaction shows someone who takes in that meaning and knows that is no longer what she seeks in terms of fulfillment (unlike earlier in the season where she constantly talked about living a "normal" life). For Claire to find fulfillment means Gretchen. There is an important element to this. Noah is being, as I said, unaware of what he is saying implies. However Noah's want is for his daughter to be fulfilled (he just doesn't know what Claire needs for that to happen). Compare this to Samuel who has decided what for Claire what she needs to be fulfilled (rejecting those without powers and being one with the carnival). Noah, for all of his caution with Claire, accepts Claire's decision that Gretchen not have her mind wiped. Samuel, on the other hand, wants to control Claire and has driven away (by proxy of his niece) the person Claire needs to find true fulfillment.

I do know that a lot of gay couples are saying "We want the white picket fence too!", so it's in the gay vernacular now! & if you watch the show closer, I don't think Noah is as clueless as you think he is! Let's just agree to disagree on this one. Oh by the way, does that mean her first roommate would have brought her true fulfillment too? After all Becky did kill that one.

Rona Jo · 11-10-2009, 08:35 PM

Awesome episode.

I felt so bad for Claire. She thought she found a real friend in Gretchen but she up and left. Even though I didn't like her that much I don't blame Gretchen. This is Claire's world not hers.

I can't believe Samuel actually thought that Claire would choose him over her own father. Hello?! Noah raised her and your just a complete stranger.

I loved seeing Peter and Emma together. I thought it was so sweet how Peter put the little princess crown on Emma. Peter saved Emma but Emma saved Peter too. He finally realized that he didn't need those clippings to remind him of the good things he's done.

And oh man, Matt and Sylar. I thought it was so funny that Matt managed to mess with Sylar. Then Matt made the ultimate sacrifice. He was willing to die so Sylar wouldn't hurt anyone again.

Next week, we're going to get answers about Mohinder. I mean, from the preview it looked like he found something in his dad's stuff.

Inesal · 11-10-2009, 09:05 PM

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I do know that a lot of gay couples are saying "We want the white picket fence too!", so it's in the gay vernacular now! & if you watch the show closer, I don't think Noah is as clueless as you think he is! Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

I am going by the longheld symbolic meaning. That the symbol is starting to be coopted is good (it should be) but I really doubt that was it's intention last night. BTW, I did not use the word "clueless". Saying someone is unaware of how the comment he said may come across or does not know what it is that his daughter desires does not mean I am saying the person is clueless. There are plenty of parents that say something that comes out wrong to the child or don't know who their child is in love with. It hardly means they are clueless. For example, HRG is very aware that Gretchen means a lot to Claire. He just is not at that next level of knowing just how much. Now the Haitian on the other hand had that I get there is something deeper going on look.

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Oh by the way, does that mean her first roommate would have brought her true fulfillment too? After all Becky did kill that one.

Becky's act in killing Claire's roommate was playing out the isolation plan implemented by Samuel. From what we saw last night that death appeared to be an act beyond what Samuel had intended. Samuel's attempt to isolate Claire however did end up leading to Gretchen leaving. So Samuel's plan to manipulate Claire into a vulnerable state (because he feels she can only be fulfilled by joining that cult for all intents and purposes) does rob her of the person, Gretchen, she desires. His manipulation took that away whereas HRG, when concerning possibly having Gretchen's memory erased, respected Claire's wishes.

Samuel's manipulation is an act based on the desire to control someone else's decisions and his actions last night (the attempt to create friction between Claire and HRG) is just another act of manipulation. While he may think there is some greater good he is in reality showing no respect for Claire to find her own path (unlike HRG who, despite appearances maybe to Claire, really does want her to find her own way). He is deciding he knows what is best for Claire and in doing so has taken away the very thing that makes Claire content.

BTW, I get you were being snarky but I'd rather it not go there. I know some of what I state (particularly that Gretchen and Claire will be entering a romance) is not popular with everyone. But a read is a read and I can't back off of that especially when it is not a difficult read. It's not trying to read John From Cincinati for example. Now getting a read on where those episodes were going was tough.

PhoenixRising · 11-11-2009, 05:49 AM

I think these discussions have entered "bizzarro world"!

Inesal · 11-11-2009, 02:42 PM

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I think these discussions have entered "bizzarro world"!

It seems like interesting discussion of an episode to me. It's nice to be discussing the meanings even if there is a differing opinion (as with me and Oldrguy). That's the fun stuff.

PhoenixRising · 11-11-2009, 06:31 PM

cmn24601 · 11-11-2009, 06:51 PM

In other talk, I was surprised to hear Danko killed Samuel's brother. Did we know that before? Are we assuming he was one of the specials Danko and his men killed in S3, then? I want to know more about Joseph, darn it!

**snatches of sunshine** · 11-15-2009, 12:16 PM

who starts the new threads usually? I could do it