Crossbow

How about an intelligent discussion of Mary Sue? I mean something beyond, "I hate her, all writers who use her shoudl be taken out back and shot."

I'm becoming fascinated with the whole Mary Sue concept. After I read an essay about how she appears in regular popular fiction, not just fan fic, I'm finding her everywhere. I realized that's why I stopped liking Anne McCaffrey's work - her central characters were always Mary Sue. The worst case was Robinton in Masterharper of Pern, where there was simply no plot at all except for Robinton going around being perfect.

Lestat in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles is another. Not in the first two books, but starting with the third, Queen of the Damned, he's most distinctly Anne Rice's avatar. At least he usually gets a plot to work with, though.

So, the last two really good fan fics I've read have been Mary Sues, although it isn't immediately obvious, because Harry himself is the Mary Sue. I hereby dub him "Harry Sue." They have both been Snape/Harry slash, and what first struck me in both was how well Snape was written, and how out-of-character Harry was. It took me until the end of the first one to realize the problem was that Harry was an avatar.

In the second one, which I'm reading now, I spotted it right away and it's not bothering me because I just stopped thinking of Harry as Harry.

Has anyone else seen this phenomenon? Have you seen it in real books too? Have you ever written a Mary Sue on purpose?

On another board, someone asked us to describe our Harry Potterverse Mary Sues. Three of us came up with descriptions. Now I'm inspired to write a fic about all the Mary Sues trying to work together. [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Some other stuff about Mary Sue:

Essay on Self-Insertion and Mary Suism

Example of a Mary Sue Litmus Test

Making Light blog entry about Mary Sue and literary theory.

Interview with Mary Sue

Chiqa

I only just found out what a Mary Sue is but by my understanding, I'd say that David Copperfield is one. He's based heavily on Charles Dickens, plus he's almost 'perfect' and makes no mistakes (plus boring). But all the other characters around him are nutty/crazy or fun.

I happen to love this book by the way [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Crossbow

Some of my favorite books have also been Mary Sues - I loved Anne McCaffrey's "Harper Hall" trilogy, and the first two were total, unapologetic Mary Sues. Mary Sue can work - IF there is a plot!

Silversun

Going back to roots - let's try defining Mary Sue.

I always thought the concepts that make up Mary Sue are:
1. An original character
2. who is extraordinarily good and gifted and beautiful
3. yet readers don't care about
4. because she takes up loads of 'screen time' and tries to divert attention away from canon characters.

Would this be a fair enough general call for an OC to be labelled Mary Sue?

In that case, I don't have a problem with Mary Sues in original fiction because (4) doesn't apply. A lot of commercial fiction have heroes, who are heroes precisely because they are good and more beautiful than the rest. I know that's a gross generalisation, but to a certain extent it has to be true. It probably applies more to fantasty/sci-fi type novels (which is where the Anne McCaffrey/Anne Rice observation comes in) because I think there is less demand for characters to be 'human'. I also think that the 'anti-hero' movement in contemporary fiction stemmed from a reaction against Mary Sue-type characters.

I personally think Mary Sues are only annoying when they are forceably inserted into a fanfic world that doesn't have any need for them. And certainly original characters can be all sorts of good, but no one wants to see an all-perfect OC prancing around, always saying the right thing, always doing the right thing, and getting the hottest guy on the show just because she's all-perfect.

I haven't actually read all that many fics with Mary Sues in them - but that may be attributed to my pickiness when reading. I tend to stop if the first few paragraphs are not very well written, and I find generally if a fic is good, then the author is already aware of pitfalls such as Mary Sues, and take steps to avoid them. Instances of bad spelling/grammar/structure/characterisation seem to come hand in hand with the possible occurance of Mary Sues. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Crossbow

I disagree that Mary Sue doesn't apply to original fiction. I think we're seeing that whenever the main character in ficiton is perfect. In fact, just look at any of teh Mary Sue litmus tests.

For example, from the test I link to above:

Section 1 - The Name Game

Is the character named after you? (This can be your first name, middle name, or the name you go by in chat or irc.) If so, stop now. Put your pencil (mouse?) down and turn in your test.[10]
DO NOT NAME YOUR CHARACTER AFTER YOURSELF.
DO NOT NAME YOURSELF AFTER YOUR CHARACTER.
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR EXCEPTION IS.

Is the character's name an unusual spelling of a more common name or word?[1]

Is the character's name unusual in another way?
A female with a male-sounding name?[1]
A name the character chose for him or herself, because s/he "didn't want to forget"?[1]
A noun or adjective not normally used for a name (especially for human characters)[1]?

Does the character have a really cool name that you wish you had?[1]

Is the character's name in the title of the story or is the title otherwise a description of the character? (i.e. "The Girl Who Could Fly")[5]

Is the character named Hunter?[1]
(If the character's last name is Canmore, ignore this question.)

Does the character have more than one name? (i.e. a nickname or a pseudonym that other characters use to refer to the character)[1]

Did you spend more than a day looking for just the right name?[1]

Have you considered naming your pet or child the character's name?[1]

Princess Bing

[img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] I was snickering half the time I was reading the posts here. Honestly, though, I don't think we'd ever be able to write well, not before we do a Mary Sue. [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] I mean, write well in the sense that we just free our minds from the quiet but insistent nagging image of us and the really hot star... in bed... doing god knows what... and there. Mary Sue.

Crossbow

Which is sort of what this essay is about: Essay on Self-Insertion and Mary Suism Mary Sue as a step on the way to becoming a good writer.

Princess Bing

Exactly what I was after. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks for the link!

Catalinay

I really enjoyed that article - thanks for the link, Crossbow.

I know when collaborating on "How We Are" and "Mad Season" Amber and I tried really hard for our main OC *not* to be a Mary Sue - even though her name is Amber! [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] I think we did okay with her, even though it's hard to tell when you're reading your own work.

Mr. Impatient

I don't think I have ever written a Mary Sue. I have a story (which is posted on the original fiction thread) in which one of the characters is based on me, but the character is hardy perfect.

Besides, I don't think I am interesting enough to use as the basis for a character. Maybe I should attempt to write something with a Mary Sue, even if I just write it for myself... Could be fun.

Silversun

Is it possible to have a non-self-insertion Mary Sue? That is, an OC who is awesomely perfect yet doesn't resemble the writer at all, and the writer didn't intend for for character to resemble him/her either? I mean, to a certain extent no, because all characters must be injected at least a little bit of the author's personality; but it's an interesting concept - you don't feel like you're writing about yourself at all, but you're still writing about this really perfect being who annoys the hell out of everyone. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Sidewalk Doctor

Hmm... I always got the impression that the term Mary Sue applied to any character who was too perfect to be believable, OC or canon.

I get the impression that in the world of tv/book/movie fic, OC Mary Sues are generally reviled. But I disagree. I think an OC Mary Sue wouldn't be a problem as long as the person is woven into the show's mythology in a believable way (as in not being suddenly dropped into this universe as though he/she's always been there), remains in a supporting role, and doesn't overshadow the canon characters. I admit to being guilty of inserting an OCMS in my Smallville fic, but I like to think her MS-ism actually is useful to the plot. For those of you who are familiar with the show, I needed a character who a) had in-depth knowledge of the Middle Ages (the plot involves time travel) and b) Would be a worthy opponent with Lana for Clark's affections (Sorry, but those kryptonite-freak chicks just don't cut it) and c) Would have enough depth to be something other than a plot device. So yeah, I guess I did create a Mary Sue on purpose.

Besides, like Crossbow pointed out, some canon characters are Mary Sues themselves (e.g. Harry Sue). Why should OCs be judged any more harshly?

Catalinay

I'd have to read your fic to be sure, but from your description that doesn't really sound like a Mary Sue to me.

Agnes Bean

*CoughLexLutharcough*[/slash fangirl]

First of all, Crossbow was saying that in FICS Harry was made INTO Harry Sue. That’s called making a canon character into a Mary Sue (it happen ALL the time with Hermione—suddenly making her all goth and “cool” just so that Draco can love her), and is, IMO, the worst kind of Mary Sue, because it is both Mary Sue and writing a character OOC.

Now, some may make the argument Harry, as written in canon, is indeed a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu, if you prefer males go by that name). But even if that is true, that doesn’t make Mary Sues in fan-fic ok. Mostly the problem with Mary Sues is that they take the spotlight from canon characters. If Mary Sue is more powerful than Dumbledore, a better Quidetch player than Harry, a better potions maker than Snape, smarter than Hermione, funnier than Fred and George and also has a special past A La Harry (not to mention is beautiful and everyone loves her), what is there for canon characters to do?

Another problem with Mary Sue is that things just aren’t HARD for her. Seeing Sue overcome Voldemort without even messing up her hair is not compelling fiction. It just isn’t.

A third problem is blatant canon rape. Having another baby (be it sister of friend of the family) present for Voldy’s downfall at the hands of baby!Harry is NOT canon. Elrond does NOT have another daughter. Making up random special lands for Sue to come from in LotR is also not canon, because Tolkien’s world is all laid out for you. Many Sue fics are often not labeled AU when they should be, and it’s annoying.

(Note, not all Sues do all these things, but all of these problems have come up in relation to Sues. They are also not the only qualms I have with Sue, but some of the bigger ones).

[ 04-02-2004: Message edited Agnes Bean ]

SummerNights

What's the big deal with Mary Sue's? I mean if you don't like them fine, if you start to read the story and the character sounds like a Mary Sue just stop reading it. I've read some very good stories with original characters in it. Of course there were those where the character does come across as perfect and everybody loved her but I just stopped reading. It's not like they're making money off of it or anything.

I read alot of romance novels and most of the time the woman is drop dead gorgeous and she's good at most everything she does but you wouldn't call them Mary Sue's because that's an all around original story. So some people do that when it comes to their favorite show or movie or even book, what's it matter?

Mary Sue's are also used in TV shows as well, look at Joey Potter from Dawson's Creek, she was pretty, smart and how many guys were supposed to have loved her.

Or Rory Gilmore from Gilmore Girls for that matter.

They're just putting their own spin on things. If they did the same old thing as everybody else there would be no originality. You'd have the same old plot with the same old characters with only a small difference between them.

Now some places don't like original characters period, they prefer to use the characters that were in the book, show or movie so they end up writing the same old pairings. Some people just don't feel the couples as they are on the show, maybe they think they work better with a whole new character.

I probably didn't make any sense and I'm sorry, just needed to get that off my chest. I love to read fanfictions no matter who or how the characters are as long as it's a good story.