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#16 | |||
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I don't think they were choosing each other over the world in that scene since Dean killed Death by accident. He decided not to kill Sam but not killing Sam wouldn't have necessarily changed anything. Dean could've still left the planet. He was killing Sam because a) he was still pissed at him over Charlie b) Death was still pissed at not getting to reap him in the beginning of s9 and c) Sam would've dedicated the rest of his life to trying to bring Dean back to Earth (personally if the freakin Grim Reaper told me that he was going to zap my sibling into outer space to spend the rest of their life in complete isolation because some vague darkness might be unleashed if the mark that is making 'em turn into a homicidal demon is removed I'd call foul.) I think Demon Dean was different because he became a demon differently. It wasn't from his time in Hell. He didn't have centuries to adjust. He was twisted from, basically, a disease that affected his soul instead of from just losing his inner light through perpetual torture. We only really saw Ruby when she was playing them. I don't think Meg had a normal personality in the early seasons. She toned down after realizing the "god" (Lucifer) she put all her faith in didn't really give a crap about her or any demon and was going to be once again as absent as the god she already felt forsaken by. __________________
"It's only symbolism puts magic and meaning into anything."
--- Jack Faust (Promethea) |
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#17 | |||
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Joined: Jul 2015
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I meant the good-natured-flirting-with-Castiel Meg, & Ruby (other than her screwing Sam over) her personality wasn't typically evil. But I understand & agree with what you're saying & you're definitely more familiar with intricate details of the entire series than I am. However my point is Sam & Dean shouldn't be represented as heroes anymore because there intentions are selfish. The message of the early seasons was simple. Fight monsters/evil. But when Sam and Dean were affected by "evil" themselves such as the reasons you stated, it resulted in the line between good & evil being crossed & in many instances Sam & Dean wonder themselves is their mission doing good anymore? It's confusing enough when you have archangels that are more deadly than demons. Heroes by default are meant to be sacrifice-yourself-for-greater good types, whereas Sam & Dean (in recent seasons) are consistently allowing other main characters to suffer/die on their behalf. I suppose my argument is redundant though, because If you permanently kill Sam & Dean, no more Supernatural. ...which is why i'd prefer to see them be villains and continue their evil streaks (together) instead of trying to cure themselves of it. |
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#18 | |||
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I think they have enough good in them to still be seen on side Good instead of side Evil.
It's sort of like Rick Grimes on The Walking Dead. When that series started he was so straight forward in the right hero who believed "if we work together, we can survive this, we can flourish". But as the series progressed, things changed. He knew from the beginning that the world was harsh and people would die but he ended up having to fight tooth and nail every hour to prevent his people from being raped and murdered and through no real fault of his own, kept losing members of his team in horrific ways. So now we've seen him go from always having a level head to being fueled by grief and mistrust and just being so tired of the zombie apocalypse. But we still root for him. He's not a villain even if he isn't quite the flawless man he was in s1. I think it is more the fans--recognizing the emotions and hardships the characters face--that see them as heroes. The characters see themselves as "grunts" and "average Joes living in extraordinary circumstances". When I think of what is a hero it's about more than if you do more good than bad. I'm an animal rights activist and while I would love it if someone protested Tajii dolphin slaughter and opened a no-kill animal shelter I wouldn't think that person was a hero if they spent their free time hunting deer or eating meat. Intentions matter. Sam & Dean rarely ever did something bad because they wanted to do something bad or even out of the knowledge that they were doing something bad. I say rarely instead of never because I did see it as villainous when Sam bled that possessed woman in S4 (even if a tiny part of her should thank him for stopping her possessed self from brutally murdering infants) & Dean killed that Stein kid in s10. I think that Dean convincing Sam not to sacrifice himself in s8 is a good example of them not doing what is right for the greater good but Dean was seeing it from the perspective of watching an innocent be sacrificed and that is never right. Even Gandhi or The Doctor (Doctor Who) might've had a problem with someone having to die in order to stop the spread of evil. And he saw that Sam sacrificing himself was half out of wanting to do the right thing and half out of suicidal feelings. I don't think they've gone more over to side Evil. It's more that they live in the Grey. Growing up, they had a skewered view of the world. It was never as simple as black and white good versus evil. And they realized that when the King of the Crossroads tried to help them take down the Devil and Lenore & Benny were "donated blood" vampires and there was an entire congregation of good werewolves and angels were causing wars and hurting them. When did they allow other characters to die on their behalf? Charlie's death was just bad writing. Kevin's death was more about Metatron manipulating Gadreel. Bobby was in the fight before they were even born. Ellen & Jo chose to die to give the boys a shot at taking out Lucifer. I don't even think Rudy was really Dean's fault since calling someone's bluff is an actual tactic that sometimes works. Dean didn't realize he was being played by Crowley until after Tara was killed. Benny is the only one that I think was sacrificed to save a Winchester. But even then, Dean genuinely thought he'd be back. He buried him and had every intention of being there for him when he returned but Benny chose to stay in Purgatory. __________________
"It's only symbolism puts magic and meaning into anything."
--- Jack Faust (Promethea) Last edited by wilywiccan; 08-14-2015 at 11:16 AM |
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#19 | |||||||
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Joined: Jul 2015
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But that brings me back to my original post. Darkness (without explanation) taking over the world sounds pretty bad to me, yet Dean cannot bare to kill Sammy, so as a result an extremely destructive "darkness" begins... Two lives vs the world? Killing Sammy can't happen so there needed to be a less extreme alternative. I don't see the need to keep making them appear good. I suppose that's why it's been said in season 11 they're going back to season 1- like story-lines when life was simple, kill the monsters, to try and prove to the audience that Sam and Dean still want to save people and not just lose themselves in evil all the time. Quote:
I don't understand what you mean. They were aware of what they were doing... bad. Quote:
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I'm not saying Dean and Sam want them to die on their, of course they don't, yet more often than not main characters keep dying for the endless fight/struggle of the brothers to stay on the good side. |
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#20 | ||||
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Joined: Mar 2007
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How is John's death their fault? He was the one that brought them into the hunting life (which was the right decision since the angels & demons would've found them regardless) and he made the deal behind their backs. They didn't even know for sure he had made a deal until much later and they resented him for it. What would Sam have warned Jessica of? That he had a psychic premonition that she might get disembowled and burned alive on the ceiling so watch out for any sinister men with yellow eyes? Prior to the pilot Sam hadn't hunted for 2 years. He was living a normal safe life with Jessica. He couldn't have known his visions (which he barely started having and didn't yet know were the result of Azazel's blood) weren't anything more than unfounded worry that he was going to lose his future wife the same way he lost his mother. With Pamela, again I don't think it was so much their doing as the world they lived in. She got sucked into their orbit and it was enough to lead to her destruction. But the same can be said for someone that gets too close to the main characters on Game of Thrones or Doctor Who or The Walking Dead or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (several of her friends have actually tried to distance themselves from her because they think it's safer). Look what happened on Torchwood, 3 years in Jack Harkness lost 4 out of 5 teammates. __________________
"It's only symbolism puts magic and meaning into anything."
--- Jack Faust (Promethea) |
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#21 | |||
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I still can not believe that they killed Death in this episode.
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#22 | |||
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 22,448
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My biggest question after sleepily watching this episode last night with my husband, Dean killed Death, what does that mean for the rest of humans in the SPN universe? I remember the movie, 'Meet Joe Black' which was based on the film, 'Death Takes a Holiday.' Death doesn't die but takes a vacation and because he's not doing his duties, people who are ready to die, cannot die because death isn't there. Is there going to be a similar effect in the SPN universe, or will not be addressed at all? Because I have to think killing death would usher consequences, unless there's another angel of death to take his place?
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