Cristofle

It IS masculine, though. It's their idea of what it is to be a man. It's explicitly masculine in how they themselves describe it, and it's explicitly masculine in how women AND men are expected to put up with it.

If you won't acknowledge sexism is real and pervasive and lopsided against women (or men who are considered "effeminate"), then there's not much to be done about that, but it's still there.

And it's not quite enough to describe "a minority", lol. Roughly 8% of black people voted for Trump. That's an EXTREME minority. If 92% of white people had voted against Trump, we would not be in this catastrophe, so white people are definitely the bigger problem. I say as a white person.

lather

OK, so maybe I'm putting my head in the lionesses jaws here, but...

Too right they can! There are women out there who know how devastating to a man's reputation and life any accusations of sexual assault can be, and are willing to use them as a weapon. This is something that my family knows only too well from personal experience, when a teenage girl came out with such accusations against a relative. My older brother's brother-in-law worked as a bus driver, and part of his regular route included a secondary school. So, of course, quite a number of passengers in the morning and evening were the 11 to 18-year-old kids going to that school.

There was one 15-year-old girl in particular who had a habit of making suggestive comments to the bus drivers on the route, which of course they always rebuffed. One day, my brother's brother-in-law had a knock on his front door, and found two police officers there who told him he was under arrest. He was then taken to the police station, where he was charged with sexual assault of a minor. It later turned out that this 15-year-old girl had gone to the police and falsely accused all five of the regular drivers on the route of sexually assaulting and raping her. And, just to make things worse for them, the case was being handled by a very ambitious and aggressive female detective, who saw it as the perfect opportunity to advance her career and so was prepared to do everything she could to get all five convicted - including altering statements and coaching the girl on what to say.

Of course, when the bus company found out about the charges, all five of the drivers were fired, and as an extra kick in the teeth for them, Social Services took all of their kids into care - even though all five of them were in jail awaiting trial.

When the cases went to trial, the jury in each trial wasn't allowed to know that the girl had made identical accusations against four other men - if they had, they may have thought that there was something a bit suspicious about the accusations, and it may have made them a bit suspicious about her. But they weren't allowed to know, and so all five ended up being convicted and jailed for several years.

Following their releases, none of them have able to get work, as they are all now classed as "registered sex offenders", and all five have had to move out of the family home and can only see their kids under supervision from Social Services - with no physical contact allowed... This proved too much for one of the others, who ended up killing himself, while the others all now suffer from depression and other problems.

So, through her lies and deception, and the naked ambition of the female detective, this girl has destroyed four lives and ended a fifth. And the bit that makes me really angry is that she knew she could get away with it without any damage to her own reputation because, under British law, as the alleged victim in a sexual assault case, she has lifetime anonymity - even if it is later proved that her allegations were deliberately false! (And what makes me really, really mad is that there is no equivalent protection for men accused of such crimes, even if found innocent, and their names and the allegations end up splashed all over the newspapers - so much for sexual equality!!)

This is why, when I see all of the stories coming out of Hollywood and elsewhere, with all of the accusations being made by various actresses and others, I think that people need to be a little more cautious with their reactions. Why? Because you can't exclude the possibility of some of the accusations being false, with the motivation behind them being things like a certain actress blaming a producer for not giving her a choice role in a movie that then made one of her rivals a big star. There are people in the entertainment industry, both male and female, who have huge egos and are prepared to do absolutely anything to destroy those they see as having slighted them or held them back.

So that's why I say that we need to be cautious, and the correct response should not be an automatic "we believe everything you say", but rather "we hear what you are saying, and will investigate your claims as fully and impartially as we can - but be aware that if you are making false accusations, there will be a price to pay".

Are there bad apples in the entertainment industry? Yes, there always have been. Whenever you have "men of power" (and also "women of power"), they have always had a history of exploiting those below them in whatever ways they can.

Is the situation as bad as is being made out? Possibly, but only a proper impartial investigation will show the true scale of the problem.

Are all of the accusations being made actually true? Who knows, which is why we need the proper investigation.

Can the situation be changed? Of course it can, but not through a media witch-hunt or the imposition of artificial quotas for the number of women in the industry. The bad apples need to be rooted out, and more women should be encouraged to aim for the higher positions, but those who get there should do so on merit, not simply to make up the numbers.


On another subject, when are they going to take Trump's phone away from him to stop him posting on Twitter??!

Cristofle

That's definitely not the way sexual harassment or DEFINITELY sexual assault cases work in the United States. Most never go to trial, and indeed a lot of prosecutors will tell women not to go to trial, because it'll ruin their lives for no reason and with no justice.

I know from my experience as a woman, I have never received blanket support when I've reported abuse or harassment. And it's been much worse with the men in my life than the women. I mean, I have had proof, and been absolutely dismissed.

Also, in the case of Weinstein, this went on for DECADES with people much more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt than multiple women who reported him.

mjgchick

Damn at the way jake asked Amy to marry him and when he knew the day he’d marry her. He’s one upped Jim Halpert. lol

Cristofle

That was SO SWEET. What a lovely TV moment, and they've been together awhile, so it felt earned.

mjgchick

Definitely especially since they didn't take over the show like most shows do with an OTP. B99 (much like Jim and Pam) is definitely proving Supergirl wrong in their assessment that two good people being together makes for boring tv. lol

The Shadow Strikes

Then why are YOU saying it is masculine? If you think it is masculine to treat women in that way, then you are giving them the perfect excuse to carry on. "Hey, we're masculine men, we grew up in the 60's and 70's, this is what we do."

Oh just go back to obsessing over you favourite teen drama. Don't try and spin this back on me, you are the one who has just wrote that it is masculine to treat women in a way like Weinstein has. For once, read what I am saying, not what you want to see.

I DID NOT SAY THAT SEXISM IS NOT REAL. I SAID THAT IT IS NOT MASCULINE TO TREAT WOMEN IN THE WAY THAT WEINSTEIN HAS.

I have also said that sexism happens to men, which does not mean that it doesn't happen to women, but that it happens to both sexes.


Oh man, you just can't accept it can you? Not only that, but you just can't bring yourself to blame black people for doing something that you despise white people for doing. "Hello, yes I would like to order a double stand."

White people do it, and they are racist biggots, black people do it, and you have to fall back on percentages. ;lol:

Cristofle

I mean, in terms of the statistics, it's just a fact with the election, lol. Let's use Florida. Trump won by a little more than 100,000 votes. Black people made up approximately 14% of the voters, and only 8% voted for Trump. Had every single one of those people voted for Clinton, it wouldn't have helped. Yes, we say every vote counts, but the reality is that the fraction of the African American population that votes GOP is so small, they don't have an actual impact on the election. It's more worth my time to wonder why 53% of white women voted for Trump, because they actually impacted the election. Or why 200,000 people voted for Gary Johnson in Florida, because they impacted the election.

And I won't deny how a common concept of masculinity plays into sexual harassment because I don't see how things could ever change long-term if we don't acknowledge motive.

-----------------------

I also see Jake and Amy like Jim and Pam- putting them together doesn't impact the overall plot of the show in any way. In the case of B99, it might have even made it better in the sense that now there is time for other things. I liked early UST Jake and Amy, but sometimes I think I like together Jake and Amy more.

Gemma_H

Maybe things are getting a bit heated here, and we need to tone them down a little? This is always going to be an emotive subject for both genders, and we need to make sure we don't let things get out of hand with the comments about it and each other.

Cristofle

Shadow Strikes and I have admittedly been down this road with statistics and numbers and how they impact race and gender before, and we're likely never going to agree with each other.

The Shadow Strikes

I don't think statistics come into it. Any man (as this is about "masculinity" i'll focus on just men) that does what Weinstein has done, isn't masculine. He might think he is, but there is clearly a canyon between what he thinks he is, and what he actually his. All the people in the industry who kept quiet bear some of the blame.


His excuse of having grown up in the 60's/70's is also flimsy. The truth of the matter is that Cary Grant he is not, an influential slimy toad however...

Cristofle

I think the main thing is, Weinstein is far from alone in what he thinks it means to be a man. And you hear that a LOT from Trump's supporters, as another man who has been accused of assaulting multiple women. They think he's tough. They think he seems strong. They even think his bragging on that AH tape is "typical guy talk". THAT'S the concept of masculinity I want to challenge, and unfortunately, it's so pervasive at least in the United States, 65 million people found his excuse acceptable and voted for him anyway.

Incidentally, to some extent it was damaging with Bush too, in finding his "don't mess with Texas" talk more appealing than Gore's clearly superior intelligence, but I don't think Bush seems the type to sexually harass women. I could always be wrong, lol, I'm never THAT surprised when the next politician has a sex scandal, but I don't think so.

ETA: and to be clear, it's not a concept of masculinity that I agree with. I think Trump is one of the weakest men imaginable. I think Obama's dignity and grace and inherent respect for women makes him far more of a man than Trump will ever be. But it's too common in the world, too common in this country, and that's what I want to challenge, because the world will be a better place of this specific notion of masculinity is wiped from the earth.

mjgchick

This country treats a Gold star soldier like yesterdays trash. The fact Rep Wilson had to highlight the fact that moron said those things while talking to a grieving widow. Now the widow has to come on the news to back Rep Wilson up. Do not **** with black women.

Cristofle

I feel horrible for Sgt. Johnson's widow, that she has to go through this on top of the worst experience of her life of losing her husband. If Trump had just apologized, and said he didn't intend to be insensitive and he's sorry it didn't come across the way he intended, none of this would have been necessary (well, there are still clear questions about what actually happened to Sgt. Johnson, but in terms of the phone call). But Trump can never apologize for anything. The whiny overgrown toddler thinks THAT is what will make him look weak.

mjgchick

Iris West wardrobe continues to be the best thing about The CW. lol