Slayerette89

I’ll never forget a teaching assistant for my Victorian Literature class telling us that even Charles Dickens had to change the end of Great Expectations to be more open towards Pip and Estella ending up together because that’s what many of the readers wanted and the readers were his source of income. So the audience was an entitled bunch even back in Victorian England, let alone now, in the age of completely commodified storytelling where ppl are literally “we’re the reason your work is successful and you earn money, so you’re gonna write it exactly the way we like.” Now honestly, I don’t value mainstream tv shows as an artistic medium very much because it’s all part of the entertainment industry, but I get defensive even of mainstream tv writers when they are pushed into changing their story to please someone else. I don’t think storytelling should work like that.

I definitely see your point with that. But as someone who sucks at keeping contact with people (I’m that stereotypical introvert and terrible friend who initiates interactions 0.1% of times) I can’t hold it against Haley personally.

And yeah, Peyton’s people-always-leave complex combined with Ellie’s appearance is a good explanation for Peyton’s behavior.

Lol. I don’t watch PLL, but I’m sorry if it’s one of your favorite shows and the writing and/or fanpandering is frustrating you. That always sucks.

So agreed. S3 would have been so much more enjoyable for me if it was PH heavy. Them as roommates is what I wanted way more than BH and BP being roommates.

Lol, definitely. Also, to this day I’m not sure if LP were written the way they were in s3 because Mark firmly planned to bring them back together or because he didn’t want LP fans to stop watching the show, so he kept putting shipbaity scenes here and there. He certainly did it to BL fans in s5.

Also agreed with all that you and everyone else said about PH. And given how positive Mark himself always was about them in interviews, I don’t get why he dropped them so easily.

Summer Falls

Marlene Kng oh yes

rossfangirl86

Well, I just learned something new. Guess fandom goes back further than any of us thought. As far as television goes, I think writers should be open to changing their story if there's reason for it. Sometimes characters and relationships write themselves. Sometimes they evolve from where they started. There should be some fluidity to things but they also shouldn't ruin the story to please one fanbase. Especially since online fans are a small percentage of the viewers. Though, also bad to completely ignore fans too. There has to be a balance between the two.

PH were the only two that didn't live together which is a shame. That would've been fun to see. Too bad Peyton didn't crash with NH in s5. That domestic scene of them by the pool was awesome. It wouldn't have worked long term but it would've been nice to see that for a few episodes.

I don't get why PH were dropped at times either. I think maybe they were forgotten just because they didn't serve certain storylines at certain times. I always got the sense they were still friends though, despite the lack of screentime.

Alexa

The thing is that a lot of storytellers try to claim that they dont change their SL's for fans, but its obvious that they do.

I kind of am too but she even didn't call Nathan. And Lucas was her best friend and it was implied she didn't keep in contact with him either. And she let people believe she was dating Chris on tv, took off her ring... IDK, there were just a lot of crappy things she did while away that rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't think the LP in season 3 was fan pandering all because if that were the case he would have given then scenes in season 2. I think it was all part of his "story". He was TRYING to show that LP couldn't;t be friends in season 2 because it was too hard, it just came across really badly. And then in season 3 I think he genuinely wanted to build them back up so he wrote that friendship back in and Peyton's feelings. A lot of the moments were pretty subtle so I don't think it was him trying to pander to fans at all. I think he knew he wanted to put LP back to gather the second he broke them up. You arent gonna put your endgame pairing together first and keep them together (with the exception of naley) you want to drag it out. All shows do it with their OTPS which is why I always knew it would go back to them.

I think the whole dropping of PH and doing BH was more because of storyline and were things ended up and not because he was intentionally trying to tear them apart. Like I said before i think he was trying to give PH a storyline by having Peyton at her but it backfired. And obviously he didnt know what do with Brooke so he just had her buy the apartment and then BH stemmed from that and obviously he had to write them in scenes together.

I feel like they could have stayed roommates without them being like insta!bffs! though. For me, that came out of nowhere. The whole maid of honor annoyed me but at the same time, what other female would Haley ask?

rossfangirl86

I think LP were always written intentionally in s1 and s3. s2 is where things went off course a bit but if you look back--there were some hints, but they were subtle as Alexa said. LP was pretty much the underdog ship when s3 was on. I remember how much the fanbase grew as s3 wore on and s4 aired.

I'm not sure if PH were intentionally pushed aside in s3 but it still wasn't cool. I wish they had had a bigger storyline that season but the friendships on this show are more like sub-stories than dominant ones. Unless it serves some kind of purpose, like BH did in s3.

Slayerette89

In retrospect, LP’s overall story roughly makes sense. I’d like to believe Mark knew what he was doing all along, but Idk. I just don’t trust him enough. Though I don’t doubt he did love LP more than anything else on this show.

And I agree that the writing for friendships overall kinda sucks. Other than BP and LH (and from s7 BH, I guess, but I didn’t actually watch those seasons) nothing was constant. Friendships appeared when they were convenient and disappeared when they weren’t. NP were also completely dropped as friends after early s5. I loved the NPH scene by the pool too and wish there were more.
Yeah, that makes sense. I don’t think it’s good or possible to stick to the original plan as the writers themselves are bound to change their minds about at least some things over the course of the show. It’s just pretty sad if they make certain changes only because some fans aggressively demand it. But fans’ criticism shouldn’t be completely ignored either. Sometimes really valid points are made. I especially hate when writers completely ignore the criticism about sensitive issues. For example, like the 100 writers do whenever someone tries to critically examine how they treat race.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I felt for her during the Chris thing because they kinda ambushed her with that one for publicity, but that was terrible to Nathan.

BlondieLeigh

After what I've seen happen to shows, I think it should be avoided as much as possible. The audience have no idea what makes a good story. Writers generally do. When they listen to much to the audience the quality declines hugely, and it declines fast. Just take PLL as an example. For the first seasons, Alison was HBIC, written as a sociopath that manipulated and abused everyone she came across. Emison became a popular ship, and now Alison is suddenly some perpetual victim housewife. They retconned an entire character and are putting Emily with her abuser to appease shippers, destroying both characters and the show's integrity in the process. If that's what fanpandering gets me I'd rather the writers acted like the audience didn't exist.

OTH was never that bad, and I'm grateful for that. I don't really think the intended endgame was ever swerved from, other shows aren't that lucky.

It would have been so much better. I would have liked to see Haley understanding why Peyton felt the way she did, too, and to see them work through it. I hated that they made their entire relationship about Nathan (because Peyton didn't like the way Haley had treated him) and making Brooke look better.

Alexa

Yeah I mean, people claim that BH were this great friendship, and OK, Ill give them that in season 3, but PH were a great friendship in season 1. And no other season showcased that. BH were not close in 4, 5, 6, 7, or 9 to my knowledge. They had a few good scenes i 8 but nothing like how it was in season 3. So imo PH and BH were very even. In fact, PH had better scenes than PH in season 5 and in season 6 IMO.

I honestly think Mark just has other things on his mind he didn't find the friendships to be that big of a concern to him because his main focus was NH, LP, BP and LH and then all the other random pairings he brought along.

I agree, I mean, looking at the 6 seasons they had an amazing journey. For a ship to get what they got, I have to be thankful for that. We got angst, we got them in a relationship twice. We got marriage/baby and a happy ending. So of course I satisfied. But their lack of interaction in season 2 will always bother me. Lucas going back to Brooke and then later Lindsey will always bother me. And you have to wonder, what if the show had gotten cancelled along the way, then what Mark? But I tell myself, the season 2 finale ended with LP on the beach. And apparently there were LP scenes (including a kiss) that were cut from the season 3 finale (and it was changed after they knew they were renewed) so even if it had been cancelled at least it would have been hopeful for LP in a way...

They did ambush her but she should have held her ground. And this was the thing, I did side with Haley for a good portion of that season 2 stuff, UNTIL i think episode 18 or something when Nathan went to visit her on tour and she totally just like, brushed him off, acted like the marriage was a mistake, she was just acting SO ODD and then she seemed shocked when Dan delivered the papers to her, like what did you expect Haley? It was just weird.

And someone remind me because I forget, she signed the papers in 222 right? In New York and gave them to Lucas, but then just showed up in 223? Why? And then apparently stayed for the summer. So did she actually sign the papers or not? How come the annulment didnt go through then, they just canceled it? lol.

Sorry Leigh I wont get into that argument because I am a big Emison supporter.... sorry. Maybe we should just leave that topic for another board. I will say i dont think changing Alison was the show's mistake. How about we just start with Ezria, i mean, really.

BlondieLeigh

Changing Alison was just one of their mistakes (this is the show with the transphobic reveal and numerous fakeouts after all). Ezria is a whole other story, and an even more insulting one The fanpandering on that show is insane. Some of the "fans" should probably be getting writers credit it's that bad...

I think Hilarie answered that one for us a couple of weeks back re: season 2. I remember because the BL fans jumped on it as proof they were meant to be endgame. She said she could remember being told the endgame at that point was BL/JP, but it seems obvious to me that meant the season in case they were cancelled - a rushed LP endgame at the end of season 2 just wouldn't have worked.

I don't remember much about this, but didn't she write "I love you" or something cheesy like that instead of signing them?

I should really go over this again.

stlavin95

Yeah, I wasn't an massive fan of Baley and that's partly because how some of their fans make their friendship a lot greater than that it actually was. Also felt it was very one sided frienship with most of their scenes about Brooke and her problems and rarely about Haley and hers. Beside season 3, Paley was definitely closer than Baley in the LP years IMO.

Yeah I agree, I loved their journey and that we got an happy ending. But at the same time there are parts of that journey that annoy and I felt that dragged those parts for too long. Like Mark having Lucas going back to Brooke when that made little to no sense to me and having Peyton suddenly fall in love with a guy just becasue he could give her the family she wanted really annoyed, especially when Mark wasted 2 seasons (especially season 2) on those couples when he could spend the time slowly putting LP getting together after the cheating in S1. I wouldn't mind if LP dated other people in S2/S3 as along they didn't dimish LP to prop those couples like they did with JP/BL. It also annoyed me how long they dragged Lindsay storyline after 5x07 (that's when LL should've ended) and espeically after the wedding, when they should've spent the second half of the season rebuilding LP instead watching Lucas chasing after someone who dumped at the altar just because Mark wanted to keep on Michaela on the show as long as possible.

Yeah that's the only way I saw those couples being endgame tbh.

rossfangirl86

This thread has gotten a bit off topic with the BH and BL talk so Petra and I decided to (re)open the rant thread. Please post about things like that there. Thank you.

http://www.fanforum.com/f202/general...vent-63179089/

Slayerette89

Omg. I'm so happy I forgot that part. It would be so oth for her to write "I love you."

Alexa, I also entirely forgot the part about either Nathan or Dan going to see Haley. I get why you thought that the marriage was not gonna last now. With scenes like that, you'd think that's where they were going.

Sorry if this is off topic. I figured we might as well continue it here because it's about Haley.

rossfangirl86

^ Everyone has been respectful of each other which is the most important thing so it's okay to go off track a little bit. We just wanted to give you guys a place to go to discuss things that don't pertain to any of the threads here. We just noticed that there was interest in discussing certain issues so it made sense to us to make a thread specifically for that purpose.

Anyway, I think you guys are right about PH--they had a pretty consistent friendship for this show. I would've loved to see them in more scenes together but we got some pretty good stuff.

Slayerette89

The general rant thread is a great idea

And, about NH annulment papers, I couldn’t resist. I just fast forwared through 2.23 and 3.01 (emotionally scarring, both of them; caught glimpses of things I didn’t want to catch glimpse of). In 3.01 we see the “I love you” instead of the signature. Lol this show.

Speaking of which, I heart this small moment so much.


source:x

Alexa

which they totally re-wrote in there, but ill talk more about that on the "rant" thread.

that was a great scene, i remember a few good scenes at the paino.

i just adored haley's "We're a team, remember?" Even though Mia was somewhat in evolved in that, Haley said its few times without her around.

Another scene I loved was the scene on the bed, staring at the fan and also the scene with Mia on the bed singing and Haley twirling Peyton's hair. Such a hil/joy moment there.