Helena Manning

Yeah I think it was that episode where Lucas thought Brooke was pregnant and he was relating his current situation to the one Dan faced when Karen was pregnant. Dan wanted an abortion.

It's fun watching that episode now especially the Lucas/Brooke scene where he's taking about how he envisioned his life to be when he had his first child . But even though it wasn't that way at the moment *snickers*, he would still be there for Brooke and his child unlike Dan. I really dislike the Lucas/Dan comparisions because I think it only goes as far as having HCM and being incredibly stubborn. Anything else is reaching imho.

a*shot*of*whiskey

I think if anything, the writers wanted more of Nathan/Dan parallel in the latter seasons especially with Jamie being born and Nathan working on his dream/comeback/dunking/slamballingwtfever you call it.

mjgchick

Word. Al though Peyton tried to be like Anna she was always like Ellie except I dont think Peyton would ever take drugs lol

mjgchick

FF

sunchick116

peyton DID take drugs. did you forget about her snorting stage?

Helena Manning

For some reason that never registers to me as something that Peyton has gone through. Maybe because we never saw Peyton snort on camera or because S2 is about as foriegn to me as Mandarin Chinese . It was another reason why I hated S2 and Mark's lame "You gotta go there to come back" way of rationalizing all that WTF?!?! writing. I love that Hil said in an interview that she was most uncomfortable with that SL for Peyton.

mjgchick

Peyton stopped taking drugs because A she's to awesome to take it and B because she like I said always wanted to be like her mom.

Besides she only snorted it once and everyone experiment once in their life. Granted I've never snorted coke but like I said Peyton's just to awesome to be addicted to that crap.

willowhaven

Karen told Dan she was pregnant (after prom if I recall...that came out in S4 I think) and he broke up with her. He already had the college scholarship and freaked out. Now, in his defense, he was just a teenager in high school and on the verge of his future, so this is grounds to be scared. Now...I get confused, but I get the impression that Whitey told him to take the scholarship, but I think when he said it, he meant for Dan to take Karen with him, not to leave her. That was in another episode. Apparently, at some point, Dan told Karen to "take care of it". Which isn't all that uncommon. Well...anyway, he met Deb at freshman orientation, and they found out she was pregnant I believe around the end of the first semester. Deb came from money and I get the feeling he was kind of pressured into the wedding. The night of the wedding rehersal Dan came back, only to find Keith was at Karen's house, and he went back. Dan admitted this to Deb. He said he realized he made a mistake. After Dan and Deb moved to Tree Hill, Dan sought custody and Karen refused. I believe they said that the attorneys told Dan since Deb was also pregnant at the same time he would lose. I believe I remember that somewhere it was stated that Dan offered child support and Karen turned it down (I think it was in S2 during the mediation) but I don't know that for sure. She later told Lucas if Dan offered she accepted, he would wanted some say in Lucas' upbringing.

Here are some quotes (well lots of them) from S1 that chronicle what happened between Dan and Karen, as well as Karen's deception to both Lucas AND Keith.

Crash Into You [1.04]
(Lucas & Karen)
K: “You will not believe the night I had tonight.”
L: “Yeah, me too.”
K: “What’s going on?”
L: <silence>
K: “Turns out fixing a water main is not a big deal. I just have to pick up a pipe at the hardware store in the morning. And then if you help me dig out where the break is I think we can fix this ourselves.”
L: “So now I’m digging ditches?”
K: “Do you mind telling me what happened before you destroy what’s left of my table?”
L: “Did you know you could fit this entire house into the living room of their place at the beach?”
K: <scoffs> “Why would you even go there?”
L: “Because I love getting dumped on.”
K: “Well, you don’t have to put up with it. You could just walk away.”
L: “Like you.”
K: “Excuse me?”
L: “You know, you never told me you had this whole thing mapped out with Dan? That you ever talked about marriage before you were pregnant with me? All you ever said was that he found out and took off.”
K: “Wait, where did you hear this?”
L: “Look, those guys. Nathan. Nathan and his ass of a father... They do whatever they want and they screw everybody else in the process. And yet, you and I, we stand by and we let them? You should have made him give us what we were entitled to so we didn’t have to live like this! You should have made him pay.”
K: “Luke, what happened tonight?”
L: “I learned something, that’s all. Everybody has secrets, right Mom?”

(Note: Funny, Lucas talks about Karen's secrets...yet she continues to hide an important secret from him that he had a right to know...)

K: “You calm enough to talk?”
L: “I’m sorry I went off. I was pissed and you were in the line of fire.”
K: “That’s usually when the truth comes out.”
L: “Well, the truth is I’m the reason you never got what you wanted. So that kind of nullifies my right to complain.”
K: “Is that what you think? I got exactly what I want Lucas. Everybody thinks I’m some kind of victim when I chose this. And if I had to do it over you and I would still be having this conversation.”
L: “Yeah I know, just I hate to see them get away with it, Dan and Nathan, you know. They should have helped you out. It’s not fair.”
K: <laughs> “I’m glad he never offered. Cause at the time I honestly don’t know what I would have said. But I can tell you this much Lucas. If he had been giving us money, he’d have felt entitled to have a say about how you were being raised, and I think that would have been a bigger price to pay. You’ve seen how Nathan’s turned out.”
L: “Like father, like son.”
K: “So who do you think we should feel sorry for? Ourselves or them?”

(Note: Lucas is blaming himself for his mom not getting her dreams. Her lies about Dan led him to believe that it was because of her getting pregnant that she lost the dream of the big house and Dan. It is obvious that this has a lot to do with Lucas' issues with Peyton. When she said "Someday", he heard "No". Why? Because he believes that he isn't worthy. That he is the reason for the negative in his mom's life. He causes people to lose their dreams, rather than gain them.)

What Is And What Should Never Be [1.20]
(Lucas, Dan & Nathan)
D: “Bang up job Nathan. Every time I blink you seem to sink to a new low. Part of me thinks I should have left you in there.”
N: “Maybe you should have.”
D: “Well this experiment of yours is over. You’re coming home.”
N: “Forget it!”
D: “NOW!”
N: “No way!”
D: “I brought you into this world, I promise I can take you out.”
L: “Let him go.”
D: “And the disappointments just keep on coming. You stay out of this.”
L: “Haley, go get an officer.”
D: “Let me get this straight. Your mom runs off and has a fling, I get the cops to drop charges and now I am the bad guy here?”
N: “Dad…”
L: <scoffs> “You might want to think before start trying to make a case for what a great father you’ve been.”
D: “What do you know about me being a father?”
L: “Exactly.”
D: “You know what? Why don’t you shut up and go talk to your Mom. Tell her you want to know what really happened between us back then. And you. You want to ruin your life, go ahead. I’m done here.”

(Note: Yes...Dan is being an ass as usual, BUT...he doesn't come out and out Karen...he just expects her to own up to the truth if Lucas asked. Could have been handled better. He was understandably upset at being told he wasn't around when it wasn't HIS choice.)

The Leaving Song [1.21]
(Lucas & Karen)
L: “Hey Mom, the other night I saw Dan and he said something.”
K: “Oh, what now?”
L: “He said to ask you what really happened back then. Any idea what he meant?”
K: “Who knows? It’s Dan.”
L: “Yeah but, I don’t know. He was talking about what kind of father he was. Was he just messing with me?”
K: “Lucas, you know I always have your best interests in mind since day one. You believe that, right?”
L: “Yeah.”
K: “Well, um, after you were born, Dan asked to be in your life. “
L: “You told me that he never showed up. That he didn’t want anything to do with us.”
K: “He didn’t show up at first. But when he moved back to town with Deb he told me that he’d like to help raise you. And he asked for joint custody. I said no.”
L: “Why?”
K: “I didn’t trust him. And Dan was ready to sue until his lawyers told him that since he had left me and gotten another girl pregnant his chances weren’t good. You know what Dan is like. I had to make a decision, I had to do what was best for you. And I knew that someday we’d be having this conversation but that was a risk I’d have to take.”
L: “I gotta go to school.”
K: “Lucas…”

(Lucas & Keith)
L: “Keith.”
K: “Hey. I just ordered some pizza. Interested?”
L: “Sure. Hey, listen. Uh…I wanted to ask you something about Dan. About how he wanted to share custody.”
K: “Oh…is he spreading that lie around again?”
L: “Keith, uh, Mom told me it’s true.”
K: “What, you mean how he called her from college?”
L: “No, after that. Dan wanted joint custody. I thought you knew that.”
K: “No. I didn’t know that.”
L: “Umm..you think things would have been different if Mom would have given him a chance?”
K: “You mean like the chance he had with Nathan?”
K: “What are you thinking?”
L: “I mean, it’s easy to see a guy that never cared, it’s easier to hate him that way, right?”
K: “Ummm. Well, maybe that’s why your mom kept it from you.”
L: “Umm…Yeah uh, I know he’s a bad guy, but maybe he just made some poor choices. And it got out of control. I mean, I’ve been doing that myself.”
K: “Luke, you’re not Dan, okay? Dan’s whole life is poor choices.”
L: “Yeah, but that’s just it. I mean maybe, this is the one that changed him.”

(Note: Keith feels exceptionally betrayed at being lied to. Hurt and angry. For good reason. When talking to Keith, Lucas hits on something I have said for years...what if losing Lucas was the one thing that pushed Dan into the spiral downward that caused him to become a complete ass. Maybe having a say in his life would have kept him from treating Nathan as he did, could have helped his relationship with Keith. Could have changed SO MANY THINGS... What if things had a domino effect...Karen withheld custody, and her love, and he lost himself along the way...)

(Karen & Keith)
Ka: “Keith, hey.”
Ke: “Lucas came to see me last night. He had a lot of questions about what you told him. About Dan. And he wasn’t the only one.”
Ka: “You have a right to be upset.”
Ke: “You’re damn straight I have a right to be upset. You want to explain to me how you could keep that from me all these years? I have a right to know that Dan wanted custody.”
Ka: “ What would you have done differently? Would you have loved Lucas any less?”
Ke: “Of course not. But I might have had a different opinion of my brother.”
Ka: “Oh come on Keith. Your opinion of Dan is based on more than just his bad behavior towards Lucas.”
Ke: “Look, back then he told me that he approached you about joint custody, okay? And I called him a liar. And now I find out the person lying was you.”
Ka: “I was trying to protect Lucas! I was trying to give him the best life possible! I was a kid Keith. And I was scared. I was scared that I was going to lose you too. I mean, you and Dan are brothers, there was always that chance.”
Ke: “What, that I’d take his side over yours?”
Ka: “Well, yeah.”
Ke: “God Karen. I thought you knew me better than that.

(Karen & Dan)
K: “Can I have a word with you? Is this just sport? The need to agitate Lucas any chance you get? Why on earth would you tell him you wanted custody?”
D: “I’m not the devil Karen. I’m tired of being blamed for everything.”
K: “Not everything…just your due. You suggest to me that I abort my child, and then one day you grow this tiny sliver of conscience that has long since disappeared and you expect a medal for that?”
D: “No. I expect you to be held as accountable as I have to be. You’re the one who kept the truth from him.”
D: “This is not about accountability. You don’t regret missing out on Lucas’ life, you hate the fact that I beat you. And you’re punishing him because some lawyer told you years ago that you could never win this one and that is pathetic Dan. So do me a favor Dan and just stay away from him.”
D: “Can’t do that. I’m his coach.”
K: “What are you talking about?”
D: “Whitey’s having surgery. I volunteered to step in and help.”
K: “You just can’t let this one go, can you?”
D: “Well, it beats lying about it.”
K: “Listen to me Dan. If you use this coaching job to hurt my son, I don’t care who on that school board you sold cars to, I’ll bury you.”
D: “You shouldn’t baby the kid Karen. A boy needs to learn to fight his own battles.”
K: “Is that why Nathan left you?

(Note: Instantly, Karen is being a bitch to Dan, for simply making known to Lucas that he did make an effort. She went negative instantly. All he said is he wanted mutual accountability. Not out of line IMHO.)

(Lucas & Karen)
L: “Come in.”
K: “Luke, can I talk to you? I owe you an apology. I shouldn’t have lied to you about Dan.”
L: “No, you shouldn’t have.”
K: “And I understand if you’re upset.”
L: “No, I don’t think you do. I just can’t turn it off. And all these years, I was sure I should hate him because he didn’t want me. I guess I’m mad at you for making me question that now. And I’m not sure I should hate him. I’m not even sure I know him.”
K: “Do you want to?”
L: “You loved him once Mom. Was there ever something there? Was he ever a good person?”
K: “Once upon a time. He was. But he hasn’t been that person for a long time.”

(Note: Karen's deception hurt Lucas deeply. WRONG WRONG WRONG! He is questioning his lifelong hatred that was instilled because of lies...)

(Keith, Karen, & Lucas)
Ka: “Hi.”
Ke: “Hi.”
Ka: “I didn’t want this.”
Ke: “What’s that?”
Ka: “This. You moving away. You’re upset with me.”
Ke: “Well neither of us wanted it, but somehow here we are.”
Ka: “Did I trap you? Did I lead you on or trick you into loving Lucas?”
Ke: “No, and you didn’t trick me into loving you either. That’s what happened.”
Ka: “And the fact that I lied about Dan’s intentions? Does that change all that?”
Ke: “Well it colors it differently, yeah.”
Ka: “How?? Because no matter what I said back then Dan would have still been the same reprehensible human being he’s become. And you still would have been there for Lucas and me.”
Ke: “And what for? So I could end up pushing 40 still living in a bachelor apartment? Don’t you see Karen, you got what you needed and so did Lucas. But what about me? I never said this before, but I will now. I stood by you and I stood by Lucas. And I’m glad I did that. But I just can’t help but think, why? You know, what do I get out of it?”
Ka: “You get a boy who loves you.”
L: “I’m sorry to interrupt but we need to talk.”
Ka: “Okay, what’s up?”
L: “Look, I know you did your best Mom, and if you hadn’t kept Dan away, Keith and I probably wouldn’t have been so close. And I would have hated to miss that. So I understand now, why you had to keep that secret to yourself. You just needed to find yourself on your own, right? “
Ka: “Yes.”
L: “Well, that’s what I want too. To start over. Isn’t that you did when you shut Dan out? And that’s what you’re doing by leaving town.”
Ke: “What do you mean, start over?”
L: “I mean, get away. Away from Dan, away from this place. And away from all the mistakes I’ve been making. I want to go with Keith, Mom. I want to leave Tree Hill.”

(Note: Because of Karen's deception, Keith lost any respect for Dan...therefore destroying what was left of their relationship. Keith held out for the dream of a family that Karen had no intention of becoming...not until much much later, and as of this point, she told him she didn't even see him that way. It is obvious that Keith feels regret for replacing Dan when Dan wanted an opportunity to parent his son. And Karen in essence pushed both Lucas and Keith away to Charleston...)

Sorry...REALLY long...BUT, the best way to answer these questions is to let Karen and Co explain it themselves.

-sick jag-

Considering Dan abandoned Karen, asked her to get an abortion, got another woman pregnant, and then stepped up for that child, I don't see where Karen went wrong by not letting Dan into Lucas' life. She was protecting him from a man she knew Lucas could not count on. Yes, perhaps her bitterness did seep through a little bit, but Lucas is a smart boy. I'm sure he drew some conclusions on his own. He knew who his father was, and that the man had another son that he had actually claimed. What kid would not be bitter about that? Karen could have tried to spin it in the most positive light possible, and there'd be no way Lucas wouldn't be bitter.

I'm unsure as to why Karen is being attached as the worst parent. In everything I've seen throughout the seasons, she's always done the best she could with Lucas. She refused Dan's help because she knew there'd be strings attached. She wanted none of that for Lucas. And considering how Nathan turned out, who could blame her? Dan is poison to his children. Karen was right to protect Lucas from Dan.

Were I a mother and the father of my child had been proven unreliable, I too would refuse him custody. Protecting my child would be the most important thing. What if Dan had skipped out on spending time with Lucas? What if he promised to show up for a ball game, but ended up not going for whatever excuse? Especially when he had another family that he clearly put first? That would hurt Lucas even more. Karen was right to keep Dan out of Lucas' life.

And another thing- during the S2 mediation, Karen had been blindsided by Lucas in regards to Lucas wanting to live with Dan. (Who had blackmailed him.) Karen never resorted to forcing Lucas to stay. He chose to go, and when Karen took his history with Dan into consideration, she was more than overwhelmed and confused. Yes, she acted irresponsibly in the mediation, but considering Dan and Lucas were tag-teaming against her by that point (Lucas because he had to, Dan because it was fun for him) then I don't blame her for her choice of words. I'm sure she was embarrassed about them afterwards.

I just don't understand how Karen can be viewed as the parent in the wrong here.

a*shot*of*whiskey

Wow. That pretty much answered my questions about D/K/L. Thanks for that Jennifer.

willowhaven

People may disagree, but you are completely correct. Both boys got a lot from Dan. Both got the temper, although Lucas tends to hold his longer, but he does tend to resort to fisticuffs (protecting Peyton when she was in the frat house which was justified and the debacle with the basketball player when he was coaching). Nathan is more a hot head, but Lucas' temper comes out too.

BUT...the grudge thing...Lucas is every bit as bad as Dan. I mean, he held a grudge before there was much to grudge about. And now, it has moved from grudge to an all-consuming anger, the same as Dan was at Keith, which led to him to kill Keith. Mentally speaking, that is why I can see past Dan killing Keith TO AN EXTENT...Dan was consumed. He didn't plan it. It was triggered by seeing Keith and Karen hugging outside the school before he went in. A psychologist would probably say that was the final straw and he snapped mentally. When he saw the gun, he picked it up and shot it. No planning. It happened. Why? Because he thought Keith tried to kill him. Therefore justified in his mind. A vigilante killing if you will.

Lucas is the same way. With as consumed as he is with the rage and anger at Dan, I could see him killing Dan, again, a vigilante killing. As from the bible, an eye for an eye. The anger takes over his whole being, to the extent that he can't see anything else. And this anger is something that bothers me. If Peyton was to seek out Dan for any reason, even if it is related to her "condition", I could see Lucas becoming very angry at her, lashing out at her, the same as he did with Haley. It is unhealthy, and that is why I hope the writers will write in SOME kind of resolution, in such a way that Dan and Lucas can co-exist. Peyton may feel a need to reach out in light of her "condition" and I would hate to see that cause a strain between her and Lucas.

But the thing was, Dan only abandoned her during the actual pregnancy. He actually was there in the hospital when Lucas was born. He only left because Keith was there. Dan SHOULD have been given a chance. He was never given the chance. That is my anger at Karen. Legally speaking, unless a parent is proven to be physically or sexually abusive, they should be given custody. He wasn't even given SUPERVISED custody. Spin it all you want. Karen was wrong. Wrong. WRONG! Until fathers rights in this country are recognized, children are definately the victim. Children have a right to both parents, and Karen denied Lucas this...and also denied him a right to grow up and know his brother. Who is to say that Lucas and Nathan's relationship wouldn't have been much different had they been allowed to grow up as brothers rather than as strangers? From everything the show has portrayed, Dan and Karen loved each other until he found out she was pregnant. This was addressed multiple times. Karen excluded Dan from Lucas' life because she was pissed he left her, not because he was a bad person. He became bad in her eyes later. When she excluded him, it was "because she was scared" and based on no real threat. Knocking up someone else isn't grounds to not see a kid. He came back...when Lucas was an infant. Tried to make good.

Here is a true story. Our neighbor (who has a daughter who used to be in my daughter's class) has two daughters (one a Senior in high school, another in 8th grade) with her husband. Then apparently he became a little "friendly" and had and affair that led to not one, but TWO children with another woman. The dummy never left him. They share custody of the son and daughter from the affair (they are like 5 and 6 I believe). To top it off, she had a son with him last year. Talk about stupid. BUT...he get to see his kids. Which is worse? What Dan did, or this assclown?

a*shot*of*whiskey

I think in Karen's mind she was trying to protect Lucas and had Lucas' best interest. Given that, I really can't call her a bad parent. Yes, perhaps she made a mistake of not allowing Dan to be a part of Lucas' life, but I think the way Dan reacted to Karen's rejection makes him the worse parent in this case.

sunchick116

I love how both me and Jennifer see the gray in all this!!

see, now that i can't see. one thing that stuck out in my mind from 607, was that in the scene in the room, as hilarious as it was, when Lucas practically yelled "and it wouldn't have happened at all if we weren't in my mom's bed", look at the reaction on Peyton's face. I don't wanna say she looks scared, but she definitely has a "do NOT talk to me like that" look on her face. which pretty much means he never has talked to her like that. Look at the look on his face after she threw the books. he looked terrified and like "WTF?".

-sick jag-

Abandonment during a pregnancy is still not excusable. And yeah, Dan came back; but he never let Karen know. Karen had no idea Dan came to the hospital, so how could she give him a chance when she had no idea he wanted one? All she knew was that she had just spent the past nine months preparing for the birth of her child, whose father had decided he didn't want to be a part of her/their lives. The feeling of being abandoned when she needed him surely helped to create a sense of bitterness.

And then Dan comes strolling in town one day, declaring he wants to be a father, after apparently no contact whatsoever? I don't blame Karen for being pissed and saying no. This man had proven himself to take the cowards way out, and had also proven himself unreliable. She had a child to protect.

Physical, mental, and sexual abuse is horrible, but it is by no means the only factor necessary to being a parent who should not have custody. At that point in time, Dan had proven himself to be unreliable and not the best choice to be a parent to Lucas. Had he actually been serious about wanting to be a part of Lucas' life, he would have stuck around and committed himself to being there for Karen. He sure as hell managed to do that after Keith died, when Karen was once again alone and pregnant. She didn't want him around at first, but she warmed up eventually. I think had Dan been committed to being a parent to Lucas, Karen would have allowed it. But Dan walks in, putting on airs, threatening to sue for custody, and of course Karen freezes him out! Dan was whimsical, at best. He had a passing fancy of wanting to be a part of Lucas' life, and at the first sign of a roadblock, he pursued other interests. So that to me tells me definitely that Karen was right.

mjgchick

LMFAO at this thread and the discussion going on in here.

Laurie we might hit 200K in no time with this thread