Jack & Bobby - ~Political Aspects~

Subject · 09-27-2004, 10:29 PM

Feel free to talk about the possible political connections, actions, and anything related to the politics of Jack & Bobby.

We also have a News & Politics board.

alli balli · 09-28-2004, 01:29 AM

bringing this over from the episode discussion:

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbesian
The 8 seconds thing, forgot about that. That bothered me -- a lot. From my standpoint, that seemed patently pro-Bush and, in fact, the entire series is beginning to look that way. When I first read the reviews, one line that frequently appeared was "West Wing replacement for liberal politicos", but thus far we have a Republican protagonist (all be it a liberal Republican, but a Republican none the less) and that comment about 8 seconds.

For those who don't see the link, Bush has taken heat about doing nothing for 8 minutes after he was told America was under attack on 9/11. By justifying Bobby doing nothing for 8 seconds...blah blah. Hell, even the bit with the janitor's kid was pro-Bush.

Come to think of it, I'm really freaking choked with this show.

Re: the 8 seconds thing...I had the exact same thought. It sounded like it was trying too hard to justify that people freeze up at crucial moments. That bothered me somewhat.

What bothers me most about the shows politics is that it's trying far too obviously to cover all its bases. We have the super-Democrat mother, spewing hatred of Republicans! It must be a liberal show! But wait...Bobby is a Republican! Now it's conservative! And the final clincher...Bobby is a liberal Republican who ran as an Independent!

Honestly? I'd be happier if they'd just pick a perspective and stick with it. You can't please everyone, and making all these exceptions is ludicrous.

Hobbesian · 09-28-2004, 01:40 PM

I actually disagree as to what the show is trying to do. As of episode three, it is patently pro-Republican trying to disguise that with some liberalism thrown in at the surface. However, the show's subtext appears to be very pro-Republican and pro-war.

First off, there is the constant undertone of family. As silly as it is, family values have somehow become an issue Republicans dominate -- largely because it's a catch phrase for anti-gay hatred. However, by having family play such a prominant role in the show they create a subtext of support for the Republican platform.

Secondly, Peter's character is the epitome of humanization for right wing businessmen. Even more important, again in terms of the show's subtext, is that the right wing businessman is winning over the academic intellectual liberal. While it may not be noticeable on the surface, this relationship has enormous subconscious impact.

Thirdly, the show is constantly trumpeting war and the glory of soldiers. The last three years are the first time in half a century that soldiers have been viewed as such heroes, in fact it's completely contrary to how they have been viewed since WWII. It is an incredibly strange outlook which is being supported whole heartedly by the media and rammed down the publics throats -- soldiers are heroes. That most certainly was not the case in Korea, Vietnam or the First Gulf War. Jack and Bobby is significantly worse than any other show on TV in this regard. From speaking about a theoretical 'War of the Americas' in the future to agrandizing the son of the janitor, soldiers are trumpeted as the best the country has.

Lastly, this 8 second crap. I watched the show with my fiance, and she thought the question that led to the pause was hilarious. In fact, it was actually so patently stupid as to not warrant an answer and, beyond that, it never would have been allowed to be asked in a debate. Further, the fact that they chose eight seconds -- rather than nine, or seven -- clearly has meaning in this case.

The fact is simple, this show is going out of it's way to be patently pro-Republican. While it most certainly is not blatantly evident to all viewers yet, those who are actively involved in politics are clearly capable of seeing it already -- and I am certain it's only going to get worse in the future.

Philosophist · 09-28-2004, 09:57 PM

I don't really know that much about politics, but I feel a bit more enlightened now

I didn't get those references, but it makes sense now. So I guess you are all democrats? lol. Well, sadly, I don't have much to contribute to this thread, but thanks to everyone who does, because it's really interesting to read.

alli balli · 09-28-2004, 10:18 PM

Hobbesian - I definitely get where you're coming from. I just have a hard time believing that all of that is intentionally pro-Republican, based on what I've read about Greg Berlanti. I know this is stereotyping, but he's gay himself, so I just kind of automatically assume that he's on the more liberal side of things himself. I would be surprised to find that he was pushing a conservative agenda.

Hobbesian · 09-28-2004, 11:20 PM

Alli, I don't know anything about the man you mentioned. What is his role in the series?

As for whether or not it is intentional, I suppose it is possible -- though highly unlikely -- that all this was an accident. The thought does seem rather absurd though. Why eight seconds? Why did the janitor's son have to be a soldier? Why did the former President's son have to die in a theoretical futuristic war (which again, would be the USA beating on some poor countries, in this case South American ones)? Why does Peter always have to be right and be the one teaching Grace (when the relationship dynamic could be just as interesting working the other way)?

Fine, some bigwig with the show is gay. Dick Cheney's daughter is gay. Whoop dee. I can't think of a darn thing in the show that is pro-Liberal / Democrats. I mean for christ's sake, they had the young Democrats smoking weed at an official meeting.

There can be no denying this show is neocon propaganda.

alli balli · 09-28-2004, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbesian
Alli, I don't know anything about the man you mentioned. What is his role in the series?

He's the creator. He also created Everwood, although I don't watch that show so don't know whether that has any political undertones or not.

Hobbesian · 09-28-2004, 11:56 PM

Never seen Everwood in my life, but the fact that he's gay doesn't mean a whole lot in this case. For some reason, despite the fact that the GOP is trying to outlaw gay marriage and their candidate in Oklahoma blames "The Gay Conspiracy" for just about everything, there are still some Republicans who are gay.

I'm sitting here watching the old episodes trying to see if there is anything overtly Democratic about them. I'm nearing the end of episode one and there isn't yet.

Beginning to think the reason I like this show so much is similar to the reason neocons listen to Stern -- because it pisses them off.

Hobbesian · 10-05-2004, 01:45 PM

Where to begin this week...

1.) Obviously, showing Grace -- the liberal -- as not only apathetic to religion but outright hostile to it. Super.

2.) Having a Reverend (symbolic of any extremely religious person) as President who is capable of ignoring religious interests suggests that not only plausible, but from the language used likely. Means to hide the fact Bush has sold his administration to right wing fundamentalist gay bashing nuts -- ie. Jerry Falwell who gave the keynote speach at the 2000 convention (he the maniac who said that AIDS was a curse from god because we tolerate homosexuals). Super.

3.) Showing one of the show's minor villains as anti-religion. Warren hates being a Jew. Following a loose subtextual line here, Democrats are potheads, Warren is a pothead, Warren hates religion. I just wrote the LSATs, and I'll tell you, there are questions just like that on the LSATs where the answer would be that Democrats hate religion.

The only thing slightly pro-Democrat in this episode was Marcus's family having economic trouble. However, there is no indication that it's because of ludicrous tax cuts which have destroyed the economy, mortgaged the future and harmed the middle class. Instead, it's just because University costs a lot.

God I hope this show gets cancelled, or even better, they stop using it as propaganda.

Subject · 10-05-2004, 07:40 PM

I don't know much about politics. However, I think that Bobby as President is in favor of the Democrats. Most people, at least most people I know only see the basic difference of Republicans being rich and Democrats as more poor. Saying that Bobby was a Republican that was betrayed by his own party for more liberal views. Is saying that Kerry while he may have money is very liberal and therefore attacked by the Republicans. Saying that Bobby was a Reverend that of course was very religious. Knows better then to let that religion run his judgement as President of the United States. Which is saying Kerry while he also is religious knows better then to let that run the office if he is elected.

Philosophist · 10-05-2004, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbesian
Where to begin this week...

1.) Obviously, showing Grace -- the liberal -- as not only apathetic to religion but outright hostile to it. Super.

2.) Having a Reverend (symbolic of any extremely religious person) as President who is capable of ignoring religious interests suggests that not only plausible, but from the language used likely. Means to hide the fact Bush has sold his administration to right wing fundamentalist gay bashing nuts -- ie. Jerry Falwell who gave the keynote speach at the 2000 convention (he the maniac who said that AIDS was a curse from god because we tolerate homosexuals). Super.

3.) Showing one of the show's minor villains as anti-religion. Warren hates being a Jew. Following a loose subtextual line here, Democrats are potheads, Warren is a pothead, Warren hates religion. I just wrote the LSATs, and I'll tell you, there are questions just like that on the LSATs where the answer would be that Democrats hate religion.

The only thing slightly pro-Democrat in this episode was Marcus's family having economic trouble. However, there is no indication that it's because of ludicrous tax cuts which have destroyed the economy, mortgaged the future and harmed the middle class. Instead, it's just because University costs a lot.

God I hope this show gets cancelled, or even better, they stop using it as propaganda.

I made sure to pay attention to any political aspects this week, so I would know what you guys were talking about, and I noticed every single one of these things, too. It actually wasn't that hard, because they are pretty blatantly obvious with these political views, and it seems they're becoming even more obvious about it as time goes by.

I have to say, it was a little disappointing when I heard future man say "Reverend" in reference to Bobby. I think that could touch on something in the future that would be better left out of the series. And when Bobby yelled at Grace for forcing him to not go to church... gah. One thing about this episode that I hated, was that there was a theme. The theme was religion. That theme was shown in the Grace/Student storyline, the Grace/Bobby storyline, the Bobby/Warren storyline, and the Jack/Missy/Missy's dad storyline. I absolutely despise episodes that repeat the same messages by using all the characters. The characters should be going through different things, not the exact same thing but in different situations. It reminded me a lot of 7th Heaven and their episodes, more notably the episode "Smoking," I think it was called, where all the characters dealt with someone who smoked, or were smoking themselves. Ben/annoying girl, Peter/Ruthie, Rev./Chandler/Chandler's brother/Chandler's dad, Kevin... It's really tiring to see a show do that, and not have their characters experience things that give them individual focus. I think if J&B continues to address one issue, every episode, through all the characters, they'll not only run out of storylines, but they'll also make any biased political views they have even more apparent to those like myself, who are not as politically educated as others. To sum it up, they're shoving everything down the audience's throat.

Hobbesian · 10-05-2004, 11:01 PM

Subject, I can understand you don't know much about politics, but there is no doubt that this show is patently pro-Republican. On the surface, things may be as you see them, but the subtext is so blatantly obvious that it's unreal. Don't view Bobby and what he does as the actions as a President. Look at Grace -- the show's only liberal -- and the way in which she is portrayed. She is constantly the villain of the show, she forces her beliefs on others and her beliefs are constantly seen as wrong.

I can't think of any episode where what she did was good. That is just retarded. This show is getting completely out of hand. Christ, this show could be written by Rove and it would be less like propaganda.

christinedechagny · 10-05-2004, 11:33 PM

Hobbesian, I'm beginning to think you're right. I just wrote a huge ranting post in the episode discussion thread about how ignorant and disrespectful Grace was in last week's episode (unbelievably so), and it makes sense that they would paint her is such an extremely negative light if they're trying to make us root for Bobby in all his rebellions against his pot-smoking, ignorant Democrat mother. Good observation about the 8 second thing too, I didn't make the connection but I did think it was weird that they kept harping on it.

Subject · 10-06-2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbesian
Look at Grace -- the show's only liberal -- and the way in which she is portrayed. She is constantly the villain of the show, she forces her beliefs on others and her beliefs are constantly seen as wrong.

See, I guess that's where we differ. I have never really seen Grace as a villian. Most people who feel strongly about a issue try to share that issue with others. It can seem and does seem like they are trying to force their views on others. In all while they are doing is trying to open their eyes to another way that they believe is better. That is done from all sides. I myself was rencently acussed of this on the issue of Roswell. I never thought I was trying to force my views upon another. However, they did.

Because I can't add any real discussion to this thread. Since I know almost nothing about politics. I think that I will be more of a lurker on this thread then anything. Kind of like I am on the News & Politics board. Perhaps from the discussion here and on that board, I can learn something.

Hobbesian · 10-06-2004, 12:49 PM

Here's one more way to look at the show. Bobby is the protagonist, everything he does is right and anyone who opposes him is wrong. That is essentially what the future time sections put forth. Bobby not only becomes President but one of the greatest Presidents in the history of the country. Without a doubt, Bobby is the show's protagonist -- thus from a storytelling perspective anyone who consistantly opposes him is an antagonist. In the first episode, we see Grace trying to force her view of life on Bobby and lying to him about his father. Grace is working against Bobby. In the second episode, Grace is again smoking pot against the strong desires of her son. In the third episode, Grace has already been established as the antagonist and is now trying to further force her life choices on her son -- the Challenge program. And now the most recent episode we again have Grace clearly working against Bobby.

If we acknowledge that Bobby is the protagonist, how can Grace not be the antagonist? So, another show where the only liberal on the show is the antagonist. I had hoped for more...