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Old 04-06-2011, 10:09 PM
  #166
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I agree with this. I don't feel as though Holly J and Sav have to spend every minute together to be in a meaningful relationship. That's something that I don't quite have a problem with in their relationship. Although, if they were on screen a little more together, it would give them more chance for development as a couple.
They don't have to spend every minute together but there's no indication of any real effort shown on screen of either of them even tryinng to make time to spend together and let's be honest when they are on screen which isn't much especially given all of Holly J's screen time it's always all about what Holly J did or said, it's never about him. The time for development was earlier this season when Drew, Bianca, Alli, Riley, Fitz etc weren't on screen but instead of screen time and development for this "relationship" we saw a lot of Holly J without Sav living her own life with her own hectic schedule. Some of Holly J's acreen time easily could've been about Holly J and Sav as a couple but, it wasn't and to me that says a lot without even saying much at all and it highly suggested to me that the writers and TPTB for whatever reason just weren't all that interested in this couple much less giving them any development.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:18 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever (View Post)
Sav's never the one that's shown as busy with the hectic schedule it's Holly J and Holly J alone.
Dude, are you still in high school or remember it? Sorry. For calling you dude. Okay. But, technically, I believe Sav has made a deal with his parents that he's still taking engineer-related courses (like physics, chem, etc.--Jebuzz those are hard, and they're probably university level), while working towards showing them that he can also pursue music production. I don't know if that's still on the docket for him and is still being used in the writer's mind. ANYWAYS. If he is doing this, I do recall high school being a pain in the B during senior year, in terms of homework (4+ hours or you're not doing it right!, as my parents would say), worrying about college applications, and the like. I do believe they are BOTH busy.

Regardless of that though, I was referring to the fact that during the timeline of their two storylines: Holly J sick and working on a Twitter project and Sav worrying about Alli's well-being (as well as physically searching). I can't see these two making selfish decisions to make quality time for each other.

PLUS. I like how Degrassi spans out the couple 'screen time' this season, whether it be about Savvy J, EClare, Dalli, etc. We do see handfuls of their time together at a time, then they focus on other people and other couples. I think this would be better, or else this board would be complaining about how there's TOO MUCH Savvy J. Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
Sav seems to need someone on screen with him to do anything. I think that there is really no drama or surpises with Alli and Sav and their family, it's really basically all about Alli all the time and until Alli went missing Sav was never affected in any way by her actions and so it made no sense for him to say Alli made his life hell when in reality her choices affected her alone and not him.
I did discuss this in length already. But, I guess it's up to your discretion if you didn't agree with it. I just thought that pressures in a tradition asian family are different and monumental for teens growing up in a Western culture sometimes, and that can bring out the worst in some people. That being said, his actions were wrong, but I understand his stress.

Also, I became a fan of Sav's and I did relate to his struggles this season. I'm not a SUPER fan of the previous seasons, but I have a vague understanding of some of the obstacles he has gone through. Sure, Alli has been sort of the scapegoat in their family, and scapegoats usually get the butt of the jokes and the wrath of the parents, but that is expected; girls have it the worst in strict asian families (from my experience). But, that doesn't mean Sav hasn't felt negativity either. I think you could do good by looking back when he vented about parental pressure and how he had to sacrifice some of the experiences he truly wanted just to please his parents (I believe that's in the episode where he steals the car and takes Eli and Adam with him to a concert).

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Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
I think that Sav came across as if bringing Holly J flowers and giving her a forehead kiss was in some handbook on how to be a good boyfriend and I'm sorry that was cheesy and awkward. I think that once again Sav is in the role of boyfriend and that it's really just another "relationship" storyline for him and we've seen Sav as a boyfriend before and he's one demensional and awkward.
I feel like you're recycling statements in your rebuttal from what you've already mentioned, but I'll digress to keep this going.

They started out as a casual relationship, and after only one incident with Declan, I see that they're still treading 'safe waters' by keeping it sweet and simple. So, Sav isn't one-dimensional in this relationship because he's only abiding by their agreement of not complicating things and keeping things 'light'.

Anyways, I don't see how coming to your girlfriend's side to show your concern is cheesy or corny. I think you may be reading too much into his actions, because I can't see how visiting her any other way would make it more of a significant gesture. Was he supposed to not go or not say reassuring things? She's going through dialysis, it's scary process (getting your fluids sucked out to be replaced with external fluids, then getting super weak, not to mention the limitations during and after treatment, don't forget the hours it'll take out of your day to do all of this).

But, really? Forget the flowers. When he was gently stroking her arm and looking at her in this helpless, concerned way, saying 'If I had known you were this sick...', I couldn't help but feel for them. She reciprocates, too! She looked up at him and just sighs in relief. I see a connection there, and I can't see how anyone can deny sincerity in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
The dialogue between Holly J and Sav is cringe worthy to me and when they do actually speak to each other given all of Holly J's acreen time isn't much the discussion is either or awkward or it goes nowhere or both. We never see Holly J go out of the way to spend time with Sav and I wouldn't describe what little we see of them as "fun."
Degrassi is definitely entitled to have cringe-worthy dialogue. Savvy J is not the only ones guilty. It's a teen show made for teens. They eat that said dialogue up!

Also, the strip tease seemed kind of fun. Or maybe I'm not young enough to remember if I'd enjoy that at 16-17, but wait... RAGING HORMONES + HOLLYJ!STRIPGIFT = FUN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
I knew right away that whatever illness wouldn't be serious or really dealt with and it just came across as the writers saying "It's time to give Charlotte another dramatic storyline" but let's be honest she's had better dramatic storylines even this season. This show has done some good, dramatic "illness" storylines but this wasn't one of them in part because it came across as rushed from the start and there was no mention of her connection to the Coynes or people like Jane or Spinner and so I just couldn't take that storyline seriously because of how ir was written and I am sure that wasn't the original intent but that storyline could've been a lot better with some minor changes.
I think you especially recycle your statements in this. I did go through the severity of her illness and her treatment plan. But, in short, I feel that going for blood and guts, ambulance at the school's driveway, etc. would be a tad bit much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
A good time to write for them to be written for would've been while Fitz, Bianca, Drew, Zane and Riley weren't on-screen much earlier this season but we saw a lot of Holly J without Sav and to me that said a lot. If Sav can't get screen time while dating Holly J then he's not going to be getting much screen time period. In order to get people to root for a couple it would help if Sav and Holly J actually dealt with an issue in a serious manner and they have zero obstacles and this isn't even going into their complete lack of chemistry and there is nothing charming or endearing about Holly J and Sav's relationship.
I feel like they don't need to suffocate us with Savvy J, this isn't the Savvy J's Degrassi Variety Hour. They're in a casual relationship that they plan to end by graduation, so I think that's a sign that the writers are writing stories for them that suit a casual/non-drama-filled relationship. Again, a healthy, successful relationship doesn't necessarily need melodrama to make it's viewers believe it's real, especially not a casual one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
I think Holly J speaks harshly about Sav and their relationship without even thinking about it twice and that doesn't make me think of them as a charming or endearing couple. When I watch this show I want to see Holly J not the writers watering down her character but she isn't allowed to be intelligent, ambitious and pushy because Sav cannot deal with that part of her personality and so it has to be watered down in order for Sav to deal with her.
1) Was she speaking these harsh words to Jenna when Jenna asked her honest opinion on Sav?

2) Holly J shows no signs of 'dumbing down' her charachter. In fact, the reason why she's my favourite female character is because she's strong, independent, and smart. She's going to Yale, after all. What's more, there is no evidence of Sav interfering with these plans. Also, if he is taking a science and music load of homework, and knowing his parents I believe he's excelling in school, I think he can hold his own on the intelligence department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
I don't blame the other kids there now for the fact that Sav was really given no real character development or storylines in over three years because no matter who he dated we would see the same issues and it seems that in the eyes of the writers that Sav and Anya just aren't important unless they are dating or trying to date someone.
I disagree. Sav, to me, has grown into a more mature person. He is taking on new responsibilities and dealing with being alone at Degrassi since his friends' grad. He isn't just a side kick anymore either, he's student prez for goodness sakes. I don't know if that means anything to anyone, but taking a leadership role and standing up to your parents most of all are huge character developments.

I agree with you on one thing tho. Sav doesn't have much screen time.

....I WISH HE DID! Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holland Fan Forever
There is no direction with Holly J and Sav...
I think this is the most real part about them that is genuine and is charming. I think all teens can relate to pining for connection, even if it's ultimately doomed. In fact, even when you grow up you'll find this desire. I think their naive perspective on their relationship is what makes it a realistic, legitimate storyline and relationship. So, for its universality, I think they deserve a little more credit than fully denying them.

P.S. Some of the things you say about Sav/Ray seem a bit personal, especially when talking about him not getting enough screen time and him feeling awkward about it. Do you have something against these two? Heh.

ANYWAYS, I'm off to bed! Hope to get some more debate brewing soon
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:08 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Kwinks (View Post)
Awesome!

I just felt as though the "you made my life a living hell" line was over the top. I get that Alli may have acted selfishly, but I still don't buy that she made his life a "living hell". By saying that, it was almost like he was insinuating that everything that went wrong in his life was her fault.
I know, I was like ERRRRRR, SHUTURFACE! Coincidentally, I had my own brother yell at me this way. I was super pissed! Ha! But, looking back, he felt pressure from the parents and mostly felt concerned for me, so that's why I get Sav's frustrations.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:45 AM
  #169
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Dude, are you still in high school or remember it? Sorry. For calling you dude. Okay. But, technically, I believe Sav has made a deal with his parents that he's still taking engineer-related courses (like physics, chem, etc.--Jebuzz those are hard, and they're probably university level), while working towards showing them that he can also pursue music production. I don't know if that's still on the docket for him and is still being used in the writer's mind. ANYWAYS. If he is doing this, I do recall high school being a pain in the B during senior year, in terms of homework (4+ hours or you're not doing it right!, as my parents would say), worrying about college applications, and the like. I do believe they are BOTH busy.
I don't think that this show has lets us actually see Sav do much of anything relating to much else outside of his family and the few scenes with Holly J. Holly J is the one we actually see doing things and working towards a future it isn't vice versa to me. I think that the writers did show some restraint in not making Holly J Sav's drummer like the old Craig/Ellie storyline.


Quote:
Regardless of that though, I was referring to the fact that during the timeline of their two storylines: Holly J sick and working on a Twitter project and Sav worrying about Alli's well-being (as well as physically searching). I can't see these two making selfish decisions to make quality time for each other.
Holly J and Sav don't seem to make an effort to spend time together and it has nothing to do with this storyline. She's off living her own life and we get to see her on screen but it's not on screen with Sav much and with the amount of screen time she has she spends more of it without him then with him and more of that screen time could've been used to move their storyline in some kind of direction but, the screen time was given to Holly J alone or with others.

Quote:
PLUS. I like how Degrassi spans out the couple 'screen time' this season, whether it be about Savvy J, EClare, Dalli, etc. We do see handfuls of their time together at a time, then they focus on other people and other couples. I think this would be better, or else this board would be complaining about how there's TOO MUCH Savvy J. Haha.
I think that Sav/Holly J are on the backburner and like the other couples or not at least they get to deal with something even if we may not like how the issue is being dealt with. Sav and Holly J deal with no issues or obstacles which is a little odd for this show but, I think that also explains why they aren't on screen much together as well at least in part.


Quote:
Also, I became a fan of Sav's and I did relate to his struggles this season. I'm not a SUPER fan of the previous seasons, but I have a vague understanding of some of the obstacles he has gone through. Sure, Alli has been sort of the scapegoat in their family, and scapegoats usually get the butt of the jokes and the wrath of the parents, but that is expected; girls have it the worst in strict asian families (from my experience). But, that doesn't mean Sav hasn't felt negativity either. I think you could do good by looking back when he vented about parental pressure and how he had to sacrifice some of the experiences he truly wanted just to please his parents (I believe that's in the episode where he steals the car and takes Eli and Adam with him to a concert).
That storyline was dropped and dropped quickly and by the time Sav was given something constructive to do it was too little, too late for me and probably others as well. I liked the direction that both Anya and Sav's separate storylines earlier this season but, it seems to me that from the point of view of the writers that Sav and Anya just aren't all that important in their eyes unless they are dating or trying to date someone. A relationship storyline was the last thing Sav needed to me because here we are three years later and we know very little about him alone without a giirlfriend.


Quote:
They started out as a casual relationship, and after only one incident with Declan, I see that they're still treading 'safe waters' by keeping it sweet and simple. So, Sav isn't one-dimensional in this relationship because he's only abiding by their agreement of not complicating things and keeping things 'light'.
He is one demensional to me and even when there could be drama for them or him it's either ignored or swept under the rug. I think that the writers miss the fact that there is always more to some guy in this case who appears to be nice but, I think Sav could've definitely been given more to do and more of a personality than what we've seen.

Quote:
Anyways, I don't see how coming to your girlfriend's side to show your concern is cheesy or corny. I think you may be reading too much into his actions, because I can't see how visiting her any other way would make it more of a significant gesture. Was he supposed not go or not say reassuring things? She's going through dialysis, it's scary process (getting your fluids sucked out to be replaced with external fluids, then getting super weak, not to mention the limitations during and after treatment, don't forget the hours it'll take out of your day to do all of this). The less you say and the more you're simply there, it's better.
The dialogue with Sav at the hospital was cringe worthy but, I guess that I've learned not to expect much from Sav or to put it simply for the writers to give Sav anything compelling or interesting to say.

Quote:
But, really? Forget the flowers. When he was gently stroking her arm and looking at her in this helpless, concerned way, saying 'If I had known you were this sick...', I couldn't help but feel for them. She reciprocates, too! She looked up at him and just sighs in relief. I can't see how anyone can deny sincerity in that.
I think that it would've been far more interesting if Sav were the one in the hospital but, I didn't ever see that happening because it would've been about him alone for a second and the writers for whatever reason have never really let anything happen to him it's always to Alli or someone else around him.


Quote:
Degrassi is definitely entitled to have cringe-worthy dialogue. Savvy J is not the only ones guilty. It's a teen show made for teens. They eat that said dialogue up.
The difference to me here is Sav is a senior but he's never really been given a chance to do much of anything by himself. He and Anya were never given much to do other than be in a relationship storyline the other kids around them get to have actual storylines where we get to see actual direction and character development. I don't think we know any more about Sav than we did when he first came to the show.

Quote:
Also, the strip tease seemed kind of fun. Or maybe I'm not young enough to remember if I'd enjoy that at 16-17, but wait... RAGING HORMONES + HOLLYJ!STRIPGIFT = FUN.
I think that was the thing that put Vegas Night over the top and the kids are are on lockdown and so I think that strip tease affected the whole school in a negative manner and she seemed embarrassed by the whole thing afterwards.

Quote:
I feel like they don't need to suffocate us with Savvy J, this isn't the Savvy J's Degrassi Variety Hour. They're in a casual relationship that plan to end by graduation, so I think that's a sign that the writers are writing stories for them that suit a casual/non-drama-filled relationship. Again, a healthy, successful relationship doesn't necessarily need melodrama to make it's viewers believe it's real, especially not a casual one.
I don't think that this show was ever going to suffocate us with Savvy J because this show isn't exactly for doing much with the seniors even if they are there in some capacity.


Quote:
1) Was she speaking these harsh words to Jenna when Jenna asked her honest opinion on Sav?
No, it was her conversation with Chantay.

Quote:
2) Holly J shows no signs of 'dumbing down' her charachter. In fact, the reason why she's my favourite female character is because she's strong, independent, and smart. She's going to Yale, after all. What's more, there is no evidence of Sav interfering with these plans. Also, if he is taking a science and music load of homework, and knowing his parents I believe he's excelling in school, I think he can hold his own on the intelligence department.
I think that in order for Sav to deal with her that she can't be snarky. smart and inteliigent and I don't think Sav is interfering at the moment but, I would hate to see Holly J give up on Yale to stay with Sav. The other opposites attracts couples get to have dialogue that gets their storyline moving in a direction and their dialogue isn't over-the-top to the point of awkwardness and or chessiness every two seconds.


Quote:
I disagree. Sav, to me, has grown into a more mature person. He is taking on new responsibilities and dealing with being alone at Degrassi since his friends' grad. He isn't just a side kick anymore either, he's student prez for goodness sakes. I don't know if that means anything to anyone, but taking a leadership role and standing up to your parents most of all are huge character developments.
I think that the idea that Sav is president and not Holly J could've been a good a idea but, again we really just see Holly J doing all the work and so in the end she got what she wanted, even if it isn't reflected in her title. I don't feel Sav stood up to his parents because things have really just gone back to the way they were for him and the reason his family has tried to change is because of Alli and not Sav. I think that Sav only ran because his parents wanted him to becaise it woulld look good on college/university applications but his interest isn't sincere to me. This was done to give Holly J and Sav something in common. I also don''t think Sav realized just how much work is involved with being student council president and so I think he seemed to be in over his head which doesn't make him look good.

Quote:
I think this is the most real part about them that is genuine and is charming. I think all teens can relate to pining for connection, even if it's ultimately doomed. In fact, even when you grow up you'll find this desire. I think their naive perspective on their relationship is what makes it a legitimate storyline. So, for its universality, I think they deserve a little more credit than fully denying them.
I think that someone who's part of TPTB has seen that this relationship is doomed and that they decided to give Holly J screen time by herself and less time with him. I think Sav was written in a corner because if he's not dating Holly J he really doesn't have much to do unlike her.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:49 AM
  #170
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Holland Fan Forever: I know you've come up with some plausible arguments about the whole Savvy J relationship, but I feel as though a lot of your statements are hollow and redundant. I'm not saying they're without truth, but I feel like you're not getting your point across effectively because you're not giving me concrete evidence.

Here are some things: what comments by Sav are cringe-worthy, awkward, cheesy, over-the-top and why (I gave you the hospital scene with my opinion)? What exactly did Holly J say to Chantay that says, with rationale, she has poor opinions on Sav and their relationship (can this override what she says to Jenna and her flicker of old-Holly J spark)? What exactly makes Sav one-dimensional, and does this affect savvy j, and how? How much screen time, your favourite defense, does one need to create a believable character, if their actor's skill and character's accomplishments are exceptional for this show (Ray seems to have both down), to contribute to a relationship, and why? Does the use of more 'drama' = better character/relationship, and why?

Otherwise, I think we, but especially you, seem to veer off too much and make personality/character assumptions on Sav's character, which are based off of what's not seen on the show (not either Sav nor Ray's fault), even though there are some logical facts to support his character depth implied--like his overbearing parents expecting perfection, engineering vs. music, student prez not just for parents but to create an individual identity apart from being part of a group/band, etc. By doing this, we're not addressing how this relates to Savvy J with rationale, but it just seems more like bashing Sav alone.

I think we need to get our thesis clear: to me, Savvy J, though doomed by their definition of their relationship, still have a credible, if not entertaining and sincere relationship.

What's yours?

Quote:
Also, the strip tease seemed kind of fun. Or maybe I'm not young enough to remember if I'd enjoy that at 16-17, but wait... RAGING HORMONES + HOLLYJ!STRIPGIFT = FUN.
Woohooo!
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:04 AM
  #171
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A civil discussion between haters and shippers? I must be dreaming

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Dude, are you still in high school or remember it? Sorry. For calling you dude. Okay. But, technically, I believe Sav has made a deal with his parents that he's still taking engineer-related courses (like physics, chem, etc.--Jebuzz those are hard, and they're probably university level), while working towards showing them that he can also pursue music production. I don't know if that's still on the docket for him and is still being used in the writer's mind. ANYWAYS. If he is doing this, I do recall high school being a pain in the B during senior year, in terms of homework (4+ hours or you're not doing it right!, as my parents would say), worrying about college applications, and the like. I do believe they are BOTH busy.
You see, the point of television is to show not tell. Do I know for sure that Sav has a lot on his mind when it comes to school? The only thing I remember seeing him actually do in preparation for college is the track that caused the Alli mess. I love Sav and I think that his character did improve over the course of season 10 but pairing him with Holly J is a huge waste for both of them. Then again, maybe not getting them together but rather doing it in a manner it had been done. The start was promising but the potential was completely ruined by the development that followed.

When I first saw the Shark in The Water promo I had a bit different picture of their relationship in my mind. I thought that the "fake pregnancy" storyline would provide an interesting base for what was to come but... do they even remember about it? Did Holly J ever apologize about what she did?

Yes, they started as a casual relationship, which IMO didn't really change (Words "Can we go back to the way we were" are not the same as "Let's start agian, for real this time) but the crush Sav had on Holly J sort of came out of nowhere, he was calling Anya the love of his life an episode or two earlier. Also, it has been made clear time and time again that Holly J has feelings for Declan (I'm not exactly a fan of that couple either anymore but it's something I can't deny). In the episode they got together she stated that she wasn't over her boyfriend, then at the very end of LL part 2 it was clearly suggested that there were still some unresolved feelings between the two and finally in Halo, when Sav said "You obviously still have feelings for him" her reaction mad it obvious that yes, she does. Yes, at the end of the episode she told Sav that he came first but is it because of the way she feels about him or because being with him prevents her for making decisions based on her emotions? He cames first "right now" but what about later? Is he important enough for Holly J to try to make it work? Somehow I don't see it. He cares about her much more than she does about him and I think it's a little sad (Kind of makes me wish they went the Sav/Bianca direction instead).

I do find the fact that writers decided to give them two separate plots in the same episode quite telling to be honest. When they had so much on their minds they couldn't possibly be there for each other, that's understandable. However if the writers truly cared about the couple, they would have put both of those plots in separate episodes and have on be there for the other. That would give them a lot of growth.

Also, I do think that Holly J is being mellowed down, what's more I often get a feeling that the person Charlotte plays on screen is herself rather than Holly J. With Sav there are no snarky remarks we hear her say to Anya and Fiona. The song thing? She used to make fun out of that constantly, she always considered it cheesy and not really her cup of tea. Why would he even sing it to her? Why wouldn't she make at least a little fun out of it? I guess I would have been fine with it if it was clear that she didn't really like it but kept quiet not to hurt Sav's feelings. The fact that she basically threw herself at him after he sung it was reallly out-of-character.

That's all I wanted to say, I guess
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:22 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by necklace (View Post)
A civil discussion between haters and shippers? I must be dreaming
You see, the point of television is to show not tell. Do I know for sure that Sav has a lot on his mind when it comes to school? The only thing I remember seeing him actually do in preparation for college is the track that caused the Alli mess...Then again, maybe not getting them together but rather doing it in a manner it had been done.
I completely agree with you here, specifically about the manner of storytelling about Savvy J. Unfortunately, I made assumptions about Sav's character based on the things we've been alluded to (strict, expectant family + college prospects). But, I still think that it's a given that being a Degrassi senior (and having a runaway sister) is something that's wrought with issues regardless and leads to chronic preoccupation, heh.

However, considering that the TV space/time continuum is kind of an accelerated version of real-life and the consideration of doing other character storylines, sometimes we have TV storylines thrust upon us--I find this to be true more in teen shows than anything. Don't forget teenagers and their intense preoccupation with relationships, whether they are impulsive or not.

But, to agree with you more about how they DID this storyline, I do think that if they were to give Savvy J more credibility, they would have done it in a more graceful way instead of Sav suddenly seeing the light in Holly J as she helps him organize a dance.

Bottom line: you can't always get what you want.

Quote:
The start was promising but the potential was completely ruined by the development that followed....
Yes, they started as a casual relationship, which IMO didn't really change (Words "Can we go back to the way we were" are not the same as "Let's start agian, for real this time) but the crush Sav had on Holly J sort of came out of nowhere, he was calling Anya the love of his life an episode or two earlier.
Agree with you here too. I saw this huge surprise factor with Savvy J, and after the shock, it grew on me. But, after the whole Declan debacle, I saw Holly J in the truest form: she's still hanging on to feelings over Declan. But, that's a given as it was so soon after Declan that she hooked-up with Sav. But, then agian, my feelings for this relationship is perpetuated by the fact that these two BOTH have matured and show great qualities in their morals and how they deal with their unique relationship (qualities needed in future, serious relationships!). I don't think this is necessarily boring, but there needs to be a realistic, grown-up relationship storyline in contrast to all the other crazies at Degrassi! Heh.

The fact that she does apologize and continually tells him he's comes first 'right now' shows a maturity I rarely saw in high school. Here me out: she is stating a truth with no leading promises of happily-ever-after (they're still a no-pressure relationship til grad'), but she also alludes to a resolution. Basically, she is implying she won't hurt him again and will respect him by owning up to her mistakes and her reaffirmation of her stance on their relationship agreement from the Hoedown dance episode ( aka 'going back to the way it was' comment). He, sees her sincerity (and she is sincere, if I'd like to believe that Holly J is a reformed mean girl) and obliges. I dunno, for some reason, I feel partial to them because of this show of maturity whether it is naive or not; I believe it shows both characters are understanding and caring towards each other.

About the Anya-love-of-my-life thing... I sniggered hard, which I always do when watching Degrassi because I take the show for face value. Sometimes we have to remember these guys are still kids, and we all know we say the 'darndest' things when we're thinking the experiences we ...well, experience in high school are more significant than the rest of our lives. He's only 16; he hasn't even reached adulthood. Leave it to the writers to compare love of your life to an on-and-off again teenage disaster! AHAHA. Oh Degrassi. Love it.


Quote:
Also, it has been made clear time and time again that Holly J has feelings for Declan (I'm not exactly a fan of that couple either anymore but it's something I can't deny)...Sav said "You obviously still have feelings for him" her reaction mad it obvious that yes, she does. Yes, at the end of the episode she told Sav that he came first but is it because of the way she feels about him or because being with him prevents her for making decisions based on her emotions?... He cares about her much more than she does about him and I think it's a little sad (Kind of makes me wish they went the Sav/Bianca direction instead).
First of foremost. Bianca. ECK! Sorry, until she cleans up her whoooorish act, I can't see her meaning anything to anyone. Sorry, I'm biased towards these types of girls. I'm a hater, I know!

OK! So...I am still a Dolly J fan. I know they're not going to waste any time once they meet up at Yale. I mean, they look and act like they were made for each other. But, after what happened during their last break up and up until grad, I think Holly J just needs to experience more and continue to grow more as a reformed mean girl (which would be impossible knowing the people Fi and Declan are associated with...has anyone watched Gossip Girl...eck, hate that show) before going back to Declan. I mean, losing your money and getting a rich boyfriend to pay for all your stuff is just counterproductive to character development. What Sav does for her is let her do her thing, like working for Little Miss Steaks and learning how to navigate life as a self-sufficient person (which is probably one of the reasons we see her more often to show this growth).

Essentially, I do think Sav is not as significant as Declan is to Holly J, but he makes a great boyfriend that is there for support and levity during all the big shifts in her life since Declan. She needs to laugh and she needs to have a good friend. He's like her breath of fresh air. I know she sees this too, otherwise she wouldn't even waste her time with him; she's a trooper and strong, independent girl, and she can easily find other distractions. True, there's probably no future for cute mixed babies, but I want to go as far as saying that he makes her truly happy regardless of their time-limited, foolhardy relationship. So, what's so insignificant or wrong about that. I think it's healthy if not normal to experience relationships like thi, and I think that's why I think there is something true, genuine and sincere about them.

Also, I think whether Sav is heartbroken and Holly J is not is irrelevant to the mentioned fact, but they're merely results of their naivety. This does not define what their relationship will mean to them when they look back on it.


Quote:
The song thing? She used to make fun out of that constantly, she always considered it cheesy and not really her cup of tea. Why would he even sing it to her? Why wouldn't she make at least a little fun out of it? I guess I would have been fine with it if it was clear that she didn't really like it but kept quiet not to hurt Sav's feelings. The fact that she basically threw herself at him after he sung it was reallly out-of-character.
Honestly, honestly. I'm not a girly girl, but if someone I cared about sang a song to me....and I'm some self-important, egocentric teen...I'd totally go for it. I don't know about stripping at 16, but.... Haha. But, I guess that's just me. I can see what you're saying, though. She was giving him this embarrassed/pleased/awyou'resocutebutthatscorny look, but I think we might be looking into his actions and her reactions too much again. I'm sure Holly J was, on some level, touched. To always assume that she's always trying to hide her disdain and disapproval of things that shout out 'he's everything you're not into' might be too much. She's said it from the start to Fiona, she likes being around him. Again, he's the levity to her problems, and she needs him 'right now' for that reason.

I think, if anything, Sav and his 'distractions' are integral to her continual growth and preparation to create meaningful relationships outside of high school (that's Declan for the antsy Dolly J fans who are waiting until I shut up, haha). Frankly, I think they make a meaningful connection through this fact.


P.S. I can't wait for dramatic Savvy J breakup! Learned a new word: Schadenfreude. I guess that describes me perfectly, ahaha.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:25 AM
  #173
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I love to see a respectful debate going on. You don't see that very often, unfortunately.

I do think there are some unresolved feelings with Dolly J. The scene at the end of LL part 2, I think, proves that. Can I just say how well Landon and Charlotte played that scene? GAH!

I think one of my issues with SavvyJ is the fact that it happened right after Dolly J. I get it. They were trying to show Sav was a rebound, but I still think it was too soon and it kind of made me resent SavvyJ.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:15 AM
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The fact that she does apologize and continually tells him he's comes first 'right now' shows a maturity I rarely saw in high school. Here me out: she is stating a truth with no leading promises of happily-ever-after (they're still a no-pressure relationship til grad'), but she also alludes to a resolution. Basically, she is implying she won't hurt him again and will respect him by owning up to her mistakes and her reaffirmation of her stance on their relationship agreement from the Hoedown dance episode ( aka 'going back to the way it was' comment). He, sees her sincerity (and she is sincere, if I'd like to believe that Holly J is a reformed mean girl) and obliges. I dunno, for some reason, I feel partial to them because of this show of maturity whether it is naive or not; I believe it shows both characters are understanding and caring towards each other.
I think there are two ways one can look at it, actually. On one hand, Holly J is being mature and respectful making the situation clear but on the other hand she's not completely honest with him.

Jenna told her that Sav admitted that he loves Holly J. Granted, he didn't actually say it nor do I believe that he feels it (but then again he still is quite naive, so he might believe that he does) but still it does bring some problems. Holly J chose to ignore the issue all together, which can be considered selfish. She knows that she doesn't feel the same about him, she makes sure their relationship doesn't grow but she doesn't actually care about how it all makes Sav feel. I don't really think it's fair. She should have adressed the issue even if she believed that Jenna was blowing things out of proportion. Of course we could assume that Holly J doesn't look at it that way and she believes that what she did was enough but I'm convinced she's smart enough to figure this out (something she proved in both season 9 and 10 and even 8 when she didn't get between Spinner/Jane).

I'm not saying that Holly J means to hurt Sav, I'm convinced that she does care about him (but definitely not in a way he cares about her), still she's ignoring it because it's easier.

Quote:
About the Anya-love-of-my-life thing... I sniggered hard, which I always do when watching Degrassi because I take the show for face value. Sometimes we have to remember these guys are still kids, and we all know we say the 'darndest' things when we're thinking the experiences we ...well, experience in high school are more significant than the rest of our lives. He's only 16; he hasn't even reached adulthood. Leave it to the writers to compare love of your life to an on-and-off again teenage disaster! AHAHA. Oh Degrassi. Love it.
Yeah I didn't believe it for a second (although it does make more sense than saying that he already loves Holly J) but the point is, we went from Sav being unable to imagine himself with anyone other than Anya to a Sav that is crushing hard on Holly J. How? when?

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True, there's probably no future for cute mixed babies, but I want to go as far as saying that he makes her truly happy regardless of their time-limited, foolhardy relationship. So, what's so insignificant or wrong about that. I think it's healthy if not normal to experience relationships like thi, and I think that's why I think there is something true, genuine and sincere about them.
There would be nothing wrong with that if they were on the same page with their feelings, which IMO they are not (of course that is something people could argue about that so I'll just go right ahead and say that I agree to disagree). When one person wants more than the other it almost always results in hurt feelings on both sides.


Quote:
Honestly, honestly. I'm not a girly girl, but if someone I cared about sang a song to me....and I'm some self-important, egocentric teen...I'd totally go for it. I don't know about stripping at 16, but.... Haha. But, I guess that's just me. I can see what you're saying, though. She was giving him this embarrassed/pleased/awyou'resocutebutthatscorny look, but I think we might be looking into his actions and her reactions too much again.
Then again, I think that the writers should look into their actions like that. When you're creating a character and his/hers relationships, every action needs to be consistent with his/hers personality. Things can't happen randomly, because that's bad writing. Of course we could assume that Holly J secretely always wanted someone to sing her a song and her side remarks whenever Sav sang to Anya, were disguised envy but we didn't get any indications about it previously so to me, Holly J was acting out of character in that scene. I'm sure many girls would love to have someone sing for them, I wouldn't mind it either () But people are different and Holly J, despite being a teenage girl, doesn't have to want the same things as the rest.

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Frankly, I think they make a meaningful connection through this fact.
I'm going to agree to disagree on this one with you

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Also, I think whether Sav is heartbroken and Holly J is not is irrelevant to the mentioned fact, but they're merely results of their naivety. This does not define what their relationship will mean to them when they look back on it.
True. If it doesn't end badly they probably will be looking back at it with fondness.

To be honest things that make us like and dislike certain couples are very rarely justified. Some arguments we give against certain ship might also apply to our favorite couple and vice versa. I guess it's all about how the characters act when they're together and if it appeals to us. Savvy J doesn't appeal to me and even though I have many "reasonable" reasons I could give for disliking them it really comes down to emotions. I simply don't like them;-)
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:17 PM
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I'd like to get something off my chest: CURSE YOU ALL...for getting me into this! I should be studying! Ahahaha. And this is how I spend half of my break. Le sigh.

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Originally Posted by DollyJfan4life (View Post)
I love to see a respectful debate going on. You don't see that very often, unfortunately...
I think one of my issues with SavvyJ is the fact that it happened right after Dolly J. I get it. They were trying to show Sav was a rebound, but I still think it was too soon and it kind of made me resent SavvyJ.
I know, I like it when there's some substance to debating on forums. Usually, it's like incomprehensible grammar (and I'm bad at grammar) and ThIs KInD oF TyPinG or just straight up trolling! I find this fun even though we're at odds in disagreeing and agreeing or agreeing to disagree. Bah.

Anyways, I think you brought another point I could add, and I don't know if I've mentioned it already...they both have bad timing when it comes to initiating a relationship. I truly believe that if they gave enough time for Holly J to be alone after Declan, the Savvy J could feel a lot more organic and not so rushed, and maybe, just maybe it would receive more approval. But, that's my wishful thinking running away with my imagination again...

However, there's a mutual attraction there since Holly J had a crush on him in season 7, so, it's plausible that a spark could've reemerged at some point if they were spending enough time together as VP and Prez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necklace
Sav being unable to imagine himself with anyone other than Anya to a Sav that is crushing hard on Holly J. How? when?
Sav is a foolish boy, he didn't mean Anya is the love of his life, but more like his first love. Kids be foolish. Seriously, I just think they're injecting real-life attitudes and reactions from real-life teens. Once again, Degrassi is made for teens, and it's not believable to see them acting as grown ups in dealing with relationships. Rather, I feel that, through lack of maturity and lack of experience with multiple partners in a wider time span to wisen up, teens have thoughts of grandeur about what relationships mean to them at the time. If you are older than 19, I think you can think back to how you felt about that 'love of my life' and think wow, that's just not practical or that's too melodramatic. Haha. I know I'm shooting down the exceptions (high school sweethearts turned marital successes), but, CAMON, they're rare.

Again, they're high school kids. I know I'm generalizing, but at the rate that everyone else in Degrassi is going at in terms of having their feelings run away with them and moving on to the next person and the next and so on, Sav is not in the minority to just start 'feeling' something with someone. Sure, it starts out as superficial attraction, but it's obvious it's more for him afterwards. Then again, aren't real life relationships like this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by necklace
Jenna told her that Sav admitted that he loves Holly J. Granted, he didn't actually say it nor do I believe that he feels it (but then again he still is quite naive, so he might believe that he does) but still it does bring some problems. Holly J chose to ignore the issue all together, which can be considered selfish.
Oh, for sure, there's probelms with unrequited love. I saw in Sav's expression that he was toying with the idea of falling for Holly J when Jenna asked him, but it wasn't confirmed. So, as Holly J brushed it off, I too brushed it off because he hasn't confirmed it to her directly. Nothing's more embarrassing than Holly J bringing that up if she don't know for sure that Sav feels this way. I don't think it's selfish, but it is her restraining herself because they both promised each other a conflict-free, casual relationship. Love and talks of love would definitely be a buzzkill for both of them, because they both know what their future is as a couple.

But, I agree with you, Sav appears to care more about Holly J than she does towards him, owning to the fact that her verbal and nonverbal communication with him has been somewhat inconsistent. It's a problem, but I like underdog stories I guess, and I don't go for underdogs that have no chance at all. I see a chance in them that lies in the chemistry they have. Sadly, I know everyone here thinks they have no spark at all. =( I feel so lonely. Ha.


I'm so crossing my fingers for a twist from the writers to write her off as the devastated or just as affected one so I can shove it in your faces!!! Haha. Yup. Dreaming again.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:29 PM
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CURSE YOU ALL...for getting me into this! I should be studying! Ahahaha. And this is how I spend half of my break. Le sigh.
You started it, you know And yeah, I never refuse a good debate, unless I'm really emotional about the subject. I usually avoid discussing it then.

Quote:
Sav is a foolish boy, he didn't mean Anya is the love of his life, but more like his first love. Kids be foolish. Seriously, I just think they're injecting real-life attitudes and reactions from real-life teens. Once again, Degrassi is made for teens, and it's not believable to see them acting as grown ups in dealing with relationships. Rather, I feel that, through lack of maturity and lack of experience with multiple partners in a wider time span to wisen up, teens have thoughts of grandeur about what relationships mean to them at the time. If you are older than 19, I think you can think back to how you felt about that 'love of my life' and think wow, that's just not practical or that's too melodramatic. Haha. I know I'm shooting down the exceptions (high school sweethearts turned marital successes), but, CAMON, they're rare.

Again, they're high school kids. I know I'm generalizing, but at the rate that everyone else in Degrassi is going at in terms of having their feelings run away with them and moving on to the next person and the next and so on, Sav is not in the minority to just start 'feeling' something with someone. Sure, it starts out as superficial attraction, but it's obvious it's more for him afterwards. Then again, aren't real life relationships like this?
Oh I know that and I agree My point is that obviously he must have been still hung up on Anya in that episode so him and Holly J truly did come out of nowhere, especially considering that the only time we've seen them hang out together was before that scene So yeah but I feel like we already said that before

Quote:
Nothing's more embarrassing than Holly J bringing that up if she don't know for sure that Sav feels this way. I don't think it's selfish, but it is her restraining herself because they both promised each other a conflict-free, casual relationship. Love and talks of love would definitely be a buzzkill for both of them, because they both know what their future is as a couple.
That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. I don't think that Sav is in love with Holly J. Not only did he not confirm it but it is way to early for that. But the fact is, that Jenna told Holly J that Sav said that. Holly j didn't see him hesitate as far as she's concerned he admited it. And that is a pretty big problem when she's only there for a short amount of time. Embarrassing or not, mentioning it would be the only mature way to handle the situation. She needed to make sure that they were on the same page with their feelings and if not, she needed to be straight forward about the fact that she doesn't want to go anywhere with their relationship. Yeah we could argue that she already did but trust me, it's not the same without discussing actual feelings.

Yes, love and love talks are definitely a buzzkill but there's no way to avoid this talk when you're in a casual relationship and you start to want more. Things would change either way, it doesn't matter if you talk about it or not. But talking it through might actually save people future bitterness. I've learned that the hard way.

Quote:
Rather, I feel that, through lack of maturity and lack of experience with multiple partners in a wider time span to wisen up, teens have thoughts of grandeur about what relationships mean to them at the time. If you are older than 19, I think you can think back to how you felt about that 'love of my life' and think wow, that's just not practical or that's too melodramatic. Haha. I know I'm shooting down the exceptions (high school sweethearts turned marital successes), but, CAMON, they're rare.
Actually, I wouldn't be so sure about it. When I was in high school more than half of my friends that got together in their first year didn't break up with each other before graduating. Some of them are STILL together and will probably get married some day. People say that high school sweethearts don't get married and stay together but I know many couples that have been happily maried for 25 years and have meet in high school. To be honest I don't think that degrassi is that realistic about teenage relationship because no one at my school had so many relationships that those characters do.

Just pointing that out, not really an argument in the Savvy J discussion
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:38 PM
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Right! I think I would have been a lot more open to SavvyJ if it wasn't so soon after Dolly J. I would have liked to see Holly J be on her own for a little bit and realize what she truly wants. I mean, wasn't that the reason her and Declan went on a break because she needed to figure things out on her own? But then they throw her right into another relationship?
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by necklace (View Post)
You started it, you know...

My point is that obviously he must have been still hung up on Anya in that episode so him and Holly J truly did come out of nowhere...
You're right I did start this mess. I guess I can't help but procrastinate.

TBH, I think Sav just brought up Anya to prove a point to his parents so as to show them the sacrifices he had (past-tense) to make in order to appease them. I know this talk and I know this speech very well since I've used it before growing up in a strict, asian family.

I think he's over it. I think on and off again relationships have a knack for lingering, even when feelings are so muddled and construed that you can't tell if you are truly still in love with someone, and especially because they're issues just went in circles and circles.

Secondly, I'm not surprised with the 'out of nowhere' attraction. Teen soaps do this all the time. Not ideal, but not a surprise.



Quote:
Yes, love and love talks are definitely a buzzkill but there's no way to avoid this talk when you're in a casual relationship and you start to want more. Things would change either way, it doesn't matter if you talk about it or not. But talking it through might actually save people future bitterness. I've learned that the hard way.
Aw. You made me actually saw 'aw' out loud, aha. I know what you mean, and I've always felt communication is key in a successful relationship. But, no one is truly perfect or truly mature enough to initiate this right away all the time. Here's why...

I said they were mature in handling their unique relationship and the cheating incident for high schoolers, but I never said that they were pros at navigating their feelings, and I don't think too many can say that they are at that age (and in some older people I know too).

I really think that they're both certain about their future together (or lack thereof), and want to do good by their arrangement, because a) I think they really enjoy each other, b) Sav's insecure about ruining a good thing by scaring her away since he's the one who convinced her that it'd be 'no strings attached' sort of deal, and c) Holly J is also insecure about bringing up the love subject since it'd be a discussion about Declan. Yeah...awkward. I think she's smart enough to not make him feel worse about coming in second. If anything, the whole 'right now' speech she told him was to say, 'Hey, we still have this casual thing going on, and the other factors--be it my confused feelings about Declan or my commitment issues--will have to wait, because I still want to be with you, because I'm happy with you and how things are.'

Whether or not Sav is satisfied with this doesn't matter, the casual label they keep reiterating is stopping him from speaking his mind.

I think neither of them know what to really say or know how to deal with the love topic since their mindsets are already conditioned to fall back on their unspoken rules on a no-pressure relationship. It's not perfect, but it's how people react sometimes. People are innately insecure and stubborn since love and belonging is such huge thing for people to strive for and maintain in life, even in the form of a casual relationship.



P.S. Surprisingly, I went to a catholic school where they try to teach you about the sanctity of marriage and relationships leading to marriage, and I only know a handful out of a class of 300ish students that married their high school sweetheart. Hm.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:54 PM
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Secondly, I'm not surprised with the 'out of nowhere' attraction. Teen soaps do this all the time. Not ideal, but not a surprise.
They do, which is why I get invested in so few couples on those shows because that's a huge turn-off for me. There are couples that I like and dislike but on degrassi I only really got into two couples. I usually don't ship couples on TV shows, although there is one more I absolutely adore. Then again it's neither a teenage show nor are those two an actual couple. They totally should be though, they've been acting like one for six seasons now! (Getting way off-topic now)

Quote:
I said they were mature in handling their unique relationship and the cheating incident for high schoolers, but I never said that they were pros at navigating their feelings, and I don't think too many can say that they are at that age (and in some older people I know too).

I really think that they're both certain about their future together (or lack thereof), and want to do good by their arrangement, because a) I think they really enjoy each other, b) Sav's insecure about ruining a good thing by scaring her away since he's the one who convinced her that it'd be 'no strings attached' sort of deal, and c) Holly J is also insecure about bringing up the love subject since it'd be a discussion about Declan, yeah...awkward. I don't think she's int he mood to make him feel worse about coming in second.

I think neither of them know what to really say or know how to deal with it since they're mindsets are already conditioned to fall back on their unspoken rules on a no-pressure relationship. It's not perfect, but it's how people react sometimes. People are innately insecure and stubborn since love and belonging is such huge thing for people to strive for and maintain in life, even in the form of a casual relationship.
I get what you're saying and I do understand where both of them are coming from but it will probably bite them in the ass after some time. But then again you never know with the writers.

Quote:
P.S. Surprisingly, I went to a catholic school where they try to teach you about the sanctity of marriage and relationships leading to marriage, and I only know a handful out of a class of 300ish students that married their high school sweetheart. Hm.
Yeah but still I don't think it's as rare as some people believe. Being a teenager doesn't mean that you're incapable of havin a mature relationship. I certainly don't think that it's actually as bad as degrassi portrays it to be. Most of the characters hooked with each other at one point or another.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:04 PM
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You have to wait until I'm done editing and re-editing after 5 times!!!!! Ahaha I'm such a n00b and idiot at writing in forums.
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