necklace

I want to go back to this one. I also wasn't a very big fan of Ashley and Craig, separately as well as a couple. However I have to say that I really enjoyed Ashley's character in season 4.

I think that during her years at degrassi, I saw her as a rather self-centered character and I think it was quite visible in her relationships with both Craig and Jimmy, as well as many of her friends. However I gained a huge load of respect for her in the episode she decided to stand by Craig. It required a lot of strenght on her part to be there for him. She was able to push aside his actions and her own hurt feelings and recognize that he truly needed her. Not many girls her age or older would have been able to do that. She was there when he was at his worst, fully prepared to give her support. And I have to say, she did a magnificent job. And even when she left for London in the end, when she couldn't handle him anymore, it was only when she felt that he was in a good place. He was taking his medication, he had support of his family and he just got a proposition to write music for a movie. And she was still with him. It wasn't until he practically forced to tell him that she needed to take a break from him that she showed just how much the entire situation was getting to her. She had so much strenght and even when she decided to run away from him, she knew that she loved that boy and that she was going to be there for him to the very end. But even then, she didn't really forget about herself. London was supposed to be her escape, a place where she could rest from all the emotional drama, give Craig the time to deal with some things on his own. It was a very wise decision on her part. Her only mistake was probably not telling Joey and Caitlin about the real purpose of the departure but she couldn't have seen what happened coming.

But yeah, Ashley in season 4 really grew on me and despite not liking her very much I gained respect and admiration towards her. Unfortunately things changed once again when she returned but that's another story.

As for Craig... there was never really a time that I liked Craig. I've enjoyed some of his storylines but other than that, he annoyed me. I agree with Kathryn that I find Eli more likeable but also extremely different from Craig. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that they both went "crazy" I don't believe anyone would compare them with each other. I believe that Eli's bipolar storyline was handled better, because we had almost a whole season filled with clues that his mental state isn't in a bad shape before we got a diganosis. If I remember correctly, Craig's storyline happened very quickly. Also, I love the contrast between the characters after they both get diagnosed. Hearing that he's bipolar makes Eli want to fight to get better, while Craig takes his frustrations out on people around him.

Craig, just like Eli, did some pretty messed up **** before he started treatment, stole Joey's credit card, trashed a hotel room, crashed a wedding, beat Joey up... I would say that he and Eli were in pretty much the same position when they started getting help. Yet Eli doesn't get angry at Bullfrog when he takes his joke seriously, he even says himself that he understands, while Craig constantly throws in people's faces how they treat him like a crazy person when they only express their concern and in the end runs away from home and stops taking his pills.

That doesn't mean that we should criticize Craig for how he acted, not at all. He was a teenage boy, who was struggling with very serious condition. And his frustration was understandable. I sympathized with him during that time and I believe that expecting more from him would be unfair. However, it does remind me exactly why I love Eli more. Because despite his struggles and mistakes, in the end his strenght allows him to get back on his feet and continue walking. Eli's a fighter whereas Craig always needed to be saved.

EvaBlue

I don't want to delve TOO much into my feelings on Crellie (I love them) but I do want to say I don't see anything about Imogen/Eli that makes me think of them - beyond Eli being bipolar and Imogen dressing like early Ellie. IMO, Craig and Ellie's relationship with each other was the healthiest "romantic" relationship those two ever had on the show. Crellie's relationship was about positive growth: Craig learning to apologize, Ellie learning to let go, and both of them getting past their unhealthy habits.

I don't think of Crash when it comes to Clare/Eli, either. I agree with you, Necklace, that Ashley and Craig are both, ultimately, very selfish characters. This is a characteristic that neither Clare or Eli share with Crash. I also loved Crash, but their relationship was unhealthy at the end of the day. I feel like it was only rarely that Craig and Ashley got on the same page with each other. I can understand how Eli/Clare and Crash have shared interests bringing them together... And that Craig is also a tragic character - like Eli. But that's about it.

I agree with this 100%.

I honestly don't get reminded of any couple, when it comes to dynamic, with Eli/Clare. I think that is *why* they work so well and why they are popular. There are so many couples that have come and gone on the show that remind me of mirrors - intentionally or not by the writers - of former couples. Eli/Clare stands very much on their own for me, like Emma/Sean.

And in terms of all the support that Cake has been getting from the writers? I think it is a marketing ploy. They WANT a shipper war and, to be honest, they're not getting it. Yes, Cake has gotten some support but NOTHING like the response Eli/Clare got last summer. There are more people who are anti-Eclare than will ever be pro-Cake. They wanted to create a love triangle that people were passionate about... Instead, all they got were people who dislike Eclare and people who LOVE Eclare, with Cake kind've a sidenote in all of this. I'm not impressed with Cake. I'm not threatened by it. And I don't take it seriously. The writers and actors are pushing it just as hard as the show itself is but it just isn't working. They want it to be more suspenseful for when Clare/Eli ultimately get back together, but the pairing is falling flat.

necklace

Well, I think it's best if we stop talking about Craig and his relationships with girls, before we get ourselves a mini shippers' war in the Eclare thread (seeing as I disliked all three pairings, I don't know which team that would put me on).

That's a very good point, actually. I mean, I follow people on Tumblr that find Cake cute but I have not yet stumbled on any hardcore shipper. But I do not follow many people so that might be the reason for it.

This actually reminded me of a time, I think that it was before Love Game aired, when Chloe tweeted about Cake being the cure for Eclare fever, and Sam Earle seemed really perplexed about what could she possibly mean. He was basically saying that he didn't understand where she was coming from with those conclusions and funnily enough after a few weeks (mainly after the "she is a hero" scene) Chloe tweeted that she's leaning more towards Eclare than Cake. I think that the writers simply failed to make this couple as awesome as they wanted it to be and every single Eclare scene proves just how little threat Cake is and that it won't be able to replace Eclare. And what I find the most amusing is that many people who liked Cake started calling it **** after Don't Panic aired. Unfortuantely, they already decided on making Cake the winner in all this, which is why they keep selling it to the fans but ultimately I don't believe we will see anything exceptional from those two. Interviews from before Now or Never was even finished yet were trying to make it seem like those two have deep and complex relationship but in reality it's one of the most shallow pairings this show has ever done. And because cast was selling them before scripts for the second half of the season were even written (and actors said it themselves that they don't know anything ahead of the time), I don't think that Cake will have an opportunity to dazzle me. As for Stefan... well, this is the man who claimed Spemma to be one of the best couples ever so... yeah.

Kwinks

Exactly. This is why I wasn't such a huge fan.

Yeah, I think that was the one period of their relationship when I almost shipped Crash. Ashley showed a lot of selflessness, and Craig was a more sympathetic character to me at that time.

I agree. I almost feel like if they weren't both ~crazy, people wouldn't be comparing them. That's what really annoys me.

This is true, too. I almost felt like Craig's diagnosis came out of nowhere. Whereas, with Eli, we've known for a while that there was something else wrong with him. People were speculating about what it was for a long time.

I love, love, love this statement. Because, to me, it's so true. If there's one thing that's true about Eli, he has a lot of spirit, and a lot of fight in him. He may be small, but he's feisty. And he doesn't give up. Although, I think he's starting to realize which battles are worth fighting now. And that's part of his growth. Ultimately, it's time for him to stop fighting with his rivals, like Fitz and Jake, and start shifting his attention to his inner struggle with himself. That's a battle worth fighting, and he's figuring that out.

I think, when it came down to it, Eli needed the support from his parents, which he wasn't really getting as much as he should have before. But now that he has it, he's willing to do what he has to to attain self-improvement.

There's also the fact that I can see Eli growing as a character, and he still has time left on the show. I see him getting better, and changing his behavior, and learning from his mistakes. With Craig, I never really got that feeling. I don't really think he changed or learned much during his time on the show.

They have something very unique and special.

I feel this way, too. They want the fandom to split into two camps - one for Cake, and one for Eclare. But the problem is, they struck gold with Eclare, so if they really wanted to create competition for it, then they needed to create a pairing that would be just as great. But they didn't. It's like they threw these two together and expected it to get the same overwhelming support that Eclare did, but it's not happening.

Exactly! I think maybe the writers were hoping some of the Eclare detractors would support Cake, just because they hate Eclare so much, but a lot of the antis don't care about it either way. The "fight", so to speak, is between the antis and shippers. Things get personal between them, but not really between the Eclare and Cake shippers. Maybe because there aren't that many Cake shippers. I haven't seen any real ship wars on my dash on tumblr, so unless I'm just not following the right people, I assume the ship war is very small-scale, if you can even call it a "war."

Same here.

I remember this. When Chloe tweeted that she liked Cake more, I was worrying that maybe Cake posed a threat. Because there had to be something they were seeing in these two, right? But now I'm wondering if she, like everyone else, was just dazed by Justin's shirtlessness.

THIS.

Enough said.

Nekoshoujo

^ It's not the craizness that makes Eli and Craig similar, it's the way the fandom views the characters. That's where the similaries are. Like all the girls involved with them are always in wrong and somehow Eli and Craig get free passes all the time. That's what makes them similar.

Yeah that's a good plan. Honestly this debate feels tired out. I think I've done enough arguing about Craig and his ladies to last a lifetime already.

Team Craig/Single Life?

pft in reality I was always Team Craig/Sean... why did they stop being friends

Anyway...


At the end of the day you're right. While maybe there certain similarities I notice Eclare is for sure one of the most original new cast couples. They have something totally different about them and yeah that is why they've become so popular because they are special.


This is so true.
Honestly from a lot of what I've seen a lot of the Cake/Imogeli support comes from people who just want Eli and Clare to be with different people. One might say it's a bad thing Eclare has so many haters but really it just shows that these two are a couple people want to talk about. The people who dislike them post just as much about them on tumblr/twitter/forums as the people who love them. Again I think this is just an example of what makes Eclare so great. Almost every Degrassi fan has some kind of reaction towards them. It says a lot about what's between these two characters as well.

Really I feel like just like the writers any ship wars going on are just from people who want to start a ship war for the sake of it.

I know maybe three hardcore Cake fans, but one of them is Team Cake/Imogeli and the other two both ship Cake and Eclare. So... Not a lot of pure loyalty on Team Cake.

I feel like Chloe is like the token extreme multi shipper of the cast. She also said she had a special place in her heart for Klare And it's been pretty obvious that Smearle is Team Eclare 4 Lyfe. I think it was Stefan's tweet that was the strangest. He's a huge Eclare fan but at the end of day... Cake? what even? But you're right he has ~interesting taste sometimes.

I think the biggest point here is about how powerful Eclare scenes are. In a way that's what the real issue with this ship war is. My favorite Cake moments are when Eli is far, far away. The second he comes into the picture the whole illusion of Cake is shattered. For instance watching Should Have Said No, these two have a really cute moment in the science room and for me it was pretty easy to think "aw~" But then you have a moment like the one Cake shares in the car when Jake says he trusts Clare. For me I thought yes I could really ship this. There's great communication here. Then the next scene is with Clare and Eli's wordless apology and it's like "Who the hell is Jake?" Basically what I'm trying to say if for me the ship war is really a joke because ultimately Jake only seems the right match for Clare when Eli isn't in the picture.

I will say though that it's hard to judge the cast's hints since really they're not that far ahead of us script wise. It's the writers that I really look for clues from. And I wouldn't shock me if they're throwing us off on purpose. Sure Ramona can make jokes about Eclare fans but then gives us EM and throws us huge red flags that Clare is still in love with Eli. Also considering she likes Eli/Adam so much she couldn't have written him into the audience of the play? Or in that episode at all? Whatever. The point is the writers love to tease. And to me every episode makes it more and more obvious they're setting Eclare up for a reunion at some point. Munro said Clare sees Eli as her lobster but if this season has made me realize anything it's that they both see each other this way.

where was I going with this...

Oh speaking of Cake! Did you guys see the interview where Aislinn said the Clare/Jake/Katie love triangle? At first I was like WTF? But maybe she was talking about the last few episodes and I'm thinking... Prom? I assumed Jake was dumping Clare because he realized she still loved Eli. But if they're going to throw another love triangle on us. I might just hit my head on wall or something. Whatever I'd honestly rather see Jake/Katie, Drew/Bianca, and Eli/Clare for the new school year. Or maybe Aislinn is trolling us all...

EvaBlue

Haha, fair enough! Craig has nothing on Eli anyway. And this comes from a person who has been watching the show for forever (I say this because I can already hear someone saying "Damn Degrassi newbies" somewhere :/ ).

They just didn't give the couple quality material. There is no reason they couldn't have been building a Jake/Clare friendship (or even continued their friends with benefits dynamic) during most of the season. Jake would have still been a threat to Eli AND they could have developed Cake more. Or, fine, keep them in a relationship but give them SOMETHING. Nobody cares if a couple on television has the BEST relationship offscreen. If I can't see it, why should I care???

Right. I feel like for the first time Degrassi has a "high profile"couple that people are very, very passionate about. They wanted to create a triangle, like Pacey/Joey/Dawson, Angel/Buffy/Spike, or Brooke/Luke/Peyton... because it gets people REALLY involved and intensely into your show. The problem is that those ships were created very organically over seasons of a show. Both pairings in those shipper triangles - agree or disagree with them - were given in-depth love stories of their own.

CAKE fails because Eli/Clare had this beautiful, drawn out love story that was developed in season ten. That love story still plays out in season 11. Clare/Jake don't have a love story - they have a relationship. There is a big difference in terms of story telling and audience response.

I don't really follow anyone on Tumblr... I just read and poke around. And, from what I have seen, there is like ONE Cake post for every THIRTY Eclare posts. Hell, there is ONE Cake post for every THIRTY anti-Eclare posts. LOL.

Oh.. hrm. I assumed she was just talking about Jake bringing Katie to movie night? I REALLY hope we don't get more Jake/Katie... at least, not while Clare is with Jake. I am Clare love triangled OUT.

necklace

I was pretty sure she meant the older episodes and yeah I also had a WTF moment. I'm surprised she mentioned it at all. Sometimes I have trouble understanding what Aislinn means because she tries so hard not to give anything away but at the same time throw us some hint that I end up confused, like when she said that Clare lands in the middle of drama "accidentaly". After watching the promo and seeing Adam lying on the ground I started wondering if Clare was involved in this more than just being his friend because of the words Aislinn used and then I realized that I'm looking way too much into them.

Now that you mention it, I think I saw more hardcore Imogeli shippers than I did Cake shippers.

Yeah, it only proves how good television those two make. I think there are really only few people that don't care about Eclare one way or another but even those have certain opinions about them. It's like those two force people to think about them.

Nekoshoujo

haha I was rereading some of the old threads and I love our theories about Eclare saying I love you: http://www.fanforum.com/f191/eclare-...39/index5.html
First off I still stand by what I said but it's a nice contrast to Cake saying I love you in such a casual way. Then again they didn't really exachange ILYs did they? It's interesting because Eli is the kind of guy who can say I Love You out loud but he's not the kind of guy who can say it without really meaning it.

Looking back at being so hopeful about Eclare I'm realizing I feel the same way about them now. Like someday when these two get back together they're going to have a real I Love You exchange and it will mean so much more after everything they've been through.


Anyway back to this thread...
1. I actually know a lot of hardcore Imogeli shippers. They kinda scare me
2. Okay I'm just going to assume Aislinn wasn't talking about anything that's going to play a part this week.
3. And this is so true:
Honestly I like Eclare because no matter what these two are up to I always find it interesting. Seriously I think the only Eclare episode that was even remotely dull to me was Jesus Etc. and even that one had some beautiful moments... and some bipolar hints...
I'm pretty sure Eclare could watch paint dry and it would keep my attention.

necklace

Umm, did this happen already?


I honestly can't tell. I'm actually wondering how many scripts we haven't seen yet.

EvaBlue

Hmm... LMAO. I really have no idea.

I'm going to have to think about it. Where did that come from and when was it released?

I'm trying to figure out what that could be from. Clare and Eli haven't had too many *long* exchanges, I feel like. Just small convos spread throughout all the season 11 episodes.

Kwinks

It's my Craig OTP.

I actually did like their little friendship. Didn't Sean save Craig's life, when he was standing in front of the on-coming train? I can't quite recall. My memory is always a little fuzzy when it comes to the old episodes.

This is so true. What's funny to me about Eclare is that, although the shippers are obsessed with shipping them, the antis are just as obsessed with hating them! What's interesting is that the antis themselves aren't people who ship the rival pairing, they just intensely dislike the couple. Most antis of other pairings are usually just a part of a ship war and support the rival pairing. Unless we're talking about Kenna, which just received an overwhelming amount of hate even without a rival pairing.

Oh, Smearle. Ever the fangirl. :p

Right. Because once Eli's in the same room with them, it's so obvious who she really belongs with. Cake is cute, but it doesn't hold a candle to Eclare. Once Eli shows up, there's really no competition.

Yeah, I was wondering this, too. Where is Adam? He and Eli haven't hung out in a while.

See, I just assumed she was talking about this, too.

I don't mind people shipping them at all. It's just that some of the Imogeli shippers are really...rude, I guess. At least, if you disagree with them, the ones I've seen can get a little nasty.

Every Eclare episode has at least one nice, meaningful scene, even when it might not be a favorite of mine. Personally, I agree. Jesus, Etc. wasn't their best. But I wasn't a big fan of Drop the World either. I prefer them pre-In Too Deep when it comes to season 10 (for obvious reasons). But I can't really complain about any of their episodes this season.

I'm trying to picture that, and even staring at a wall, watching paint dry together, they'd still have a ton of chemistry.

Yeah, and I don't recognize the exchange. But I sometimes have poor memory. XD

But I'm assuming that since none of us seem to remember this, it hasn't happened yet.

These would have been great ways for the writers to make Cake a good contender, but nope. Of course not. Why use common sense?

You said it beautifully. So true.

It's hilarious how true this is.

necklace

^ Ummm, did you get my message here on FF, you know, with the THING?

Kwinks

^ I did!

Nekoshoujo

Pretty sure we haven't seen that scripted scene yet.

And I didn't see this till a moment ago...

Kwinks

Wrote an Eclare fic last night.

Control