mellifluouscloud

There is a definite double standard for girl vs. boy characters on the show. No doubt about it. Especially when it comes down to things like cheating or being sexually active.

I find Spinner to be a compelling character mostly because of his growth over the years. Yeah, he did some awful things for sure. But most of those awful things were contained in seasons 1-5. Spinner was on the show for 4 more seasons after that and I would argue that he redeemed himself from the mistakes he made when he was 13-16 years old. He frequently showed remorse for the mistakes he made. Marco and Jimmy forgave him for the horrendous things he did... and I think that's why fans decided to forgive him, too. He also has an undeniable charisma and sense of humor. That alone will get you very very far in the likeability category no matter what you do.

MegaJ

I don't really have a problem with the way Clare's been acting as of late.

Yeah, some of it is uncalled for (like her "pedestrian" comment to Alli) but I think she's been acting naturally since her parents divorced. I think she has a very black and white view of morality in terms of bad people vs. good people (like how she kept warning Alli about Johnny) and seeing her parents divorce and finding out about her dad's infidelity, not to mention falling in love with Eli's crazy self just destroyed her morality and worldview and everything she knew up to that point so she's just lost.

Makes more sense than Emma's continued decline in any case.

kaleidocat

Re Spinner:

One of the main problems I have with Spinner is the lack of consequences - from the writers and the fandom - he received from attempting to cheat on Paige, then cheating on Darcy with Paige. Cheating on Darcy is the most jarring to me because it happened in the season 5 finale and they are back together in the season 6 premiere AND it happened off screen. Fans tear into Craig for cheating on Ashley but the consequences of that were heavy and spread out over two seasons before they resumed their relationship. Yes, I acknowledge that sadly he was reduced back to love triangles in season 5 till his final exit in Degrassi Goes Hollywood so I can understand that takes away from his growth. But prior to that it was obvious in the writing that he had to redeem himself and learn from his mistakes. There was none of that with Spinner. He's made a lot of mistakes that usually had consequences but this one that did not. Maybe the writers thought he didn’t need it because look at the fandom; no one cares that he cheated, attempted to cheat, and thought it was admirable when Craig did it. Spinner is just handed girlfriend after girlfriend. Hey, maybe it was karma that Jane cheated on him (and she was dealt too harsh of a punishment IMO).

Ellie is another character that gets away with cheating. She cheated on Jesse and then had no moral dilemma when she kissed Craig knowing he had a girlfriend in Degrassi Goes Hollywood. And this was the same girl in season 4 who said “Monogamy, wow, what a difficult concept.” There’s other bad behavior she is excused from. She was incredibly cruel to Manny and didn’t respect her relationship with Craig but fans never call her out on this. Any other character wouldn’t have gotten away with that – Ashley never treated Manny that badly despite that she was the one Craig cheated on her with. Jenna was ripped into for dating Clare’s ex KC and some fans thought she was betraying her friend. But Ellie moving in on Ashley’s boyfriend over the summer? No one has a problem with that or questions Ellie's loyalty.

Fandom is weird. It really can alienate me from certain characters at times.

mellifluouscloud

Hi. I do! I can't f'ing stand Ellie. She annoys the living crap out of me. The only time I like her is in season 2 when she had a crush on Marco. Oh and Whisper to a Scream, of course. For the rest of her time on the show, she is the definition of a hypocrite. She's judgmental, rude, downright belligerent at times, and completely oblivious to her flaws. Don't even get me started on the embarrassing, never-ending Crellie saga. Or how she treated Jimmy! Ugh, I can't even deal with her ridiculousness. I should probably stop here and go find where the anti Ellie thread (assuming there is one) is buried so I can feel less alone in my hatred.

Squall_L.

I don't get all the Mia hate. I agree, she was never really a bad person, not like the current two Marty Stus we have to deal with.

I get that but I forgave Spinner because of the loads and loads of character development he went through in seasons 4-7.
But I agree that people have a double standard when it comes to men vs. women. Misogyny is and will be a major problem with today’s youth.

Uh, we're talking about the same Johnny here right? The one that abused Alli and was a raging jerk until season 10?

Let’s talk about Drew. He’s done some of the worst things on this show by far (and this where he differs from most of the old cast) but he’s never attempted to make up for any of his past crimes, or indeed, even offer a single apology and has gone through zero character development and yet people are determined to sweep all this under the rug like it never happened. I will never understand how a misogynist, homophobic Gary Stu will become so popular, but then there’s Edward Cullen…

MegaJ

Yes, I was explaining how to Clare, it didn't matter whether or not Johnny cared for Alli, he didn't treat her very nicely so she shouldn't put up with him.

Spinner does get away with a lot and I'm still pressed that he was so judgmental with Marco's gambling problem and didn't even think for really forgive Jane.

kaleidocat

I only remember today is Jake Epstein's birthday because it is the day after my big childhood crush Brad Renfro died in 2008. I still remember how I was working on Jake's OP back then and we celebrated him on his birthday. Pretty sure I cried while putting up the thread. I don't have a crush on Jake but I will probably always keep track of him and feel protective over him in a way. And he is attractive. But Brad? Nothing ever has really compared to him. Others have picked up on this. I feel bad for the guys I dated when I was a young teen because they knew this guy from the movies meant more to me. Friends mentioned Renfro's death to me, some more personal condolences than others. I guess he was my Elvis. I guess in this weird way he became a part of my life. This quote from The Virgin Suicides sort of always summed up how much a crush like that can hurt: "The only way we could feel close to the girls was through these impossible excursions, which have scarred us forever, making us happier with dreams than wives."

Now, what is really a secret, a confession, is this one dream I had. It was years ago. And like I said, Jake is probably the only thing I can claim close to as a crush as Brad. I mean, I run a crazy stupid fan site for Crash and know what he is up to career wise (even though that **** should be updated). The thing that haunted me from the dream was the distinction between both men. One was described as a "bad boy" in Teen Bop along with his pin up at 14 and died of an overdose at 25. His family situation was always cleanly summed up as it could be; he was raised by his grandmother and his fans only discovered from his obituary that he had a son. Then there is Jake. When he did an interview with the DTNG staff member who watched him grew up said that she thought he was a good boy and his mother should write a book on parenting. I awwwed. I think Jake did too and said thank you. It is possible he doesn't like cats but I think he's a decent guy and will spare you with like a grocery list of reasons.

Not that Brad isn't. I don't even know these guys. But in my dream the psychiatrist asked me to choose between 1/15 and 1/16. One feels more tragic and morbid than the other. I chose the 15th. When I woke up I couldn't breathe.

necklace

Putting aside my feelings regarding Spinner cheating on Darcy (and I agree he got away with it and was forgiven too easily), and I might be in the minority here, I found Jane's behaviour to be really awful. Cheating is one thing but the lack of remorse over her actions, hell finding the whole thing hilarious afterwards was a big no for me and I spent the majority of the season irritated with her.

Yes, there is a double standard in the show when it comes to boys and girls cheating but if anything I feel like consequences of Jane's actions weren't nearly as big as people make them out to be because the only real consequence was Spinner breaking up with her. Which, considering how he found out, wasn't all that surprising.

I don't really think that Spinner cheating on Darcy should be brought up as a reason why he should forgive Jane for cheating. For one, his previous relationship shouldn't affect his later relationships and two, he never cheated on Jane. He was faithful and honest with her, feeling compelled to tell her about HJ's crush on him because he did't want to hide anything from her. Breaking up with Jane doesn't make him a hypocrite because he cheated on Darcy years before or because he thought having two girlfriends when he was a kid was admirable. He grew up since then and so did his actions.

MegaJ

Marisol has been one of my favorite characters since she was fleshed out. I think what makes her is that while she's Queen Bee, she doesn't really seem like a stereotypical mean girl. I mean, she is but I think what saves her is that she has no "redemptive arc." She's can be mean and nasty, but not all the time as she is kind to Katie and Mo. She seems like more of a real person than Paige or Holly J (at first).

kaleidocat

While I dislike the presentation of Eli's hoarding storyline, I remember being really touched by reading a fan's reaction to his loss and can appreciate why he experiences anxiety when throwing things away. Especially since I can relate to that. No, I don't hoard and I consider it a quirk. Apparently I've been this way since I was a small child (I'm too young to even remember it besides for this weird memory of a lot of trash bags). My parents had to sneak it away. That was a very kind approach. I'm not sure I would have been so delicate with me but I suppose it prevented any annoying temper tantrums. Then I was normal again. Now that I'm on my own I do alright but damn it, I see that weirdness. I hate throwing out food. I'm smart about how much I prepare so waste is limited but I annoy myself with how I save "special" things aka care package gifts from my mom. That box of bread mix isn't going to rise properly now but it is like this internal struggle to throw it out. I tossed old christmas cookies and what happened? She was back in the hospital. And I KNEW that would happen if they were tossed. I was on reddit the other week and someone commented on how they like to save boxes because they are useful (guess what I have under my bed). Someone replied that they are one family member death away from hoarding. Oh God...that's me. If this happens I'm just going to be like...game over...I'm neurotic enough already.

NocturnalCouchPotato

Although Alli is one of my favorite characters on the show, I can't watch some of her season 10 episodes because of how bratty she was acting in them or the poor choices she was making. At least she ended that season on a high note and redeemed herself shortly after. But man, everything between Drew and that blond wig...

kaleidocat

I've been sitting on these thoughts for awhile now and if any speculation about Luke being involved in a Steubenville type situation are true, maybe now is the time for me to share them. I always thought about posting them in the Becky & Luke appreciation thread. But it seems more appropriate here:

Jay and Owen are actually memorable characters to me. The actors both have amazing charisma and it is bizarre how easily I can forgive them for horrible behavior. I don't deny their flaws. I enjoy them, actually. Sometimes the plot needs a character like this to push forward a plot and can't do it without a strong actor like Mike and Daniel (tossing in Marc Donato here too, just because). Other times it needs comedic relief. I've laughed at and been repulsed by Jay and Owen at different times but still like them. I think that says something. But what do I say about Luke?

Honestly...and I've been trying not to say this...I feel like Luke and Becky Baker were created in response to the whole Florida Family Association controversy or whatever you want to call it. So it is hard for me to take either seriously. I try to. Becky is easier and I like the idea of her faith being challenged or understanding Luke's hypocrisy but still both characters feel like a "lesson" from Epitome to me out of retaliation; here is how a "good" Christian should act towards LGBT and that one is a "bad" one. I don't like what FFA is doing at all, of course, but Epitome's (on screen) response is weird too.

Both characters are just kind of tainted for me. The circumstances surrounding their introduction sticks with me. I hope I'm wrong and TPTB are invested in Becky's character but sometimes I wonder if maybe they feel like they have reached their goal already with showing her acceptance and love for Adam. But Luke is just an instigator for drama. I wish more thought would be put into his character. He might be their villain but he would be a more successful one if as a viewer you understand him some. Not just hate what he does.

I might be opening a can of worms here with this...

NocturnalCouchPotato

Yeah, I agree with the Luke bit. I hope (well, hope isn't the right word) that Miles or Winston is the one who assaults Zoey and not Luke, because Luke doesn't have a history with her, and since he's already a 1 note character, it wouldn't be as "big" as the writers are trying to make it. And I think it would send a more important message that rape can occur from acquaintances too, although they didn't handle any other "gray area" situation well at all and I don't think they'd want to be painting Miles as the rapist if he's gonna be the new male lead after Drew and Eli go. I don't even know if they'd focus on Luke then. I'm not saying he needs to get insight or we should feel bad for him, but I want to see him punished brutally. Ostracized, kicked out, expelled, sent to jail, whatever. I want a big falling out from Luke with everyone, and I'm not sure if that would be his only plot or if he'd ever get redeemed, but I don't just want Luke to be a plot device used to stir drama anymore. It's just lazy writing. It's too late to make him a real character, but at least seeing him dealing with the consequences first hand would be more interesting than having Luke essentially be a reoccurring extra at this point.

kaleidocat

I think what worked best with an episode like Time Stands Still is that the roles were reversed; you had characters like Paige and Spinner, fan favorites, that challenged a viewer's perceptions of them. They weren't the good guys. I think that creates a lot of retrospection in tv viewers and that is valuable to a series like this. No one wakes up and thinks they are going to bully or rape someone. I don't know how we get to the point where we help someone identify that moment before it happens but I think Time Stands Still at very least helped create discussion. I have no idea how a tv show goes about doing that but I'd like to see it done in the same way. Rape is awful. I don't understand it. I mean, I guess I do from what I've read. In no means do I want to see the rapist as sympathetic. But I do wonder if creating a scenerio where someone could relate to would help prevent something like that from happening. No one thinks of Rick as a hero, but I think that there is a part of all of us that understands the circumstance. You don't have to like what someone does/who they are, but if you get it, I think that creates a sort of restraint in yourself that might help prevent something from happening no matter how involved you were. Like Time Stands Still, this episode could be really successful if it involves an ensemble cast who are guilty in some way of something that led to tragic circumstances.

NocturnalCouchPotato

Oops, I think I wasn't clear or I miswrote what I said, but yeah, I'd rather have Miles instead of Luke as the assaulter because they've already done characters we don't know or are supposed to think of as moral scum or completely evil, instead of people who actually have relationships with the victim. Like I wouldn't want a sympathetic portrayal of the attacker but yeah. Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.

What other confessions do I have...
I don't care for Darcy. I think she was always holier than thou, she never gave off that much chemistry with any other character she worked with, whether it was a friend, boyfriend, rival, or adult, and I think her assault plot was wrapped up poorly. Come to think of it, I feel the same about Jane. I guess they kind of worked with each other, in that sense.