[joypiter]

Spoilers rant!

We used to have this thread a few years back in season 2 where we basically ranted about spoilers. If you are NOT spoiled, please do not read the posts on this thread, as they will likely relate to rumors, speculations, spoilers, and what is to come in future episodes.

Rant away!!

[UDflyer]

C- Thanks so much for getting this thread started back up for us! I love that you keep the title of the old school threads.

Anywho! The purpose of this thread, like you've said... We have a rant thread, but, we can't talk about spoilers, storyline direction, and other types of speculation related to those things, in there, because not everyone is spoiled. We have a spoilers thread, but, we don't want it to get overwhelming to any of our posters who'd prefer not to see a large amount of ranting etc. So, we have this! A storyline, spoilers, and spec rant thread.

We just want to ask, please, normal rant thread rules apply here. Y'all know the drill. No bashing of any of the real life cast, other fan bases, etc. If we can also steer clear of any kind of... You know, calling anyone poster or thread out with stuff like... That person said over there! Or... That thread is talking about... Then, we're golden. LOL. Any questions, just feel free to shoot me or Kylie a PM and we'll get it answered for you.

Umm, where to even start with this current storyline and the spoilers to go along with it. There are so many things that leave me beyond baffled.

[killed the lights]

Thanks for starting this thread Caro! And thanks Krystal for the reminders.

Let me just say, Carrie needs to go away. far far far away.

[UDflyer]

No worries, Shanna.

So, so! Knowing what we know about the spoilers etc... How did things go tonight? Will I be rolling my eyes and needing to bust out a rant or will I be thinking, well, maybe... This could make sense for this character, this story, this-? LOL.

I'm on the West Coast, and, I'm going to let the DVR get ahead of me, too. So, I've got awhile until I see it yet. Particularly, how did the characters of Haley and Nathan fair, particularly in regards to what we know is coming with the spoilers.

Haley's been getting a lot of flack for her insecurity and not being forthcoming and therefore at fault for Carrie still being around. How did Haley fair on that front tonight?

[keep no score]

Ugh Carrie. Just ... ugh. This storyline is not necessary in the slightest. They could have highlighted so much with NH this season and instead, they have their son's nanny jump onto Nathan's arm every chance she gets? Um ... no thanks.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's awesome to have a place to rant about spoilers.

[hjames-scott]

I don't know, Krys. After tonight, if Nathan doesn't fire Carrie immediately like we know he doesn't, he just looks like a fcking idiot. She came on SO SO SO strong, to the point she said, point blank "I've never seen you jealous" after K Fed hit on her, to "You can see me better with the lights on" and "I knew you were watching me" skinny dip, and yet... he doesn't tell Haley. He doesn't fire her. He continues to allow this skanky woman to watch his child and live in the home he shares with his wife and son. It's borderline despicable.

Do I think he's interested in her? No, BUT I think he's far too lenient with her, and there is NO WAY he would allow her to remain in their lives if he were acting like the real Nathan who protects his family at any and all costs. It's just stupid.

And Haley tonight, well she was a spitfire, but I thought she came off a TAD harsh on Nathan. Like, I understand why it freaks her out to see him lose control but she whaled on him when they were alone. It's actually a good thing, but it definitely hurt him.

[martini1188]

Carrie must go.

Does anything else really need to be said about that?

This whole thing makes Nathan look dumber than a rock and like a bad husband for not telling Haley, and Haley look completely irrational for asking for a divorce when her husband didn't cheat. All for them to end up... where? Right back where they were without her. Absolute waste of air time.

I was glad Haley really went off on Nathan tonight, though. He's not 18 years old anymore, he can't just go beating up people whenever he pleases. Number 1, it's illegal. I think we all forget that you can actually go to jail for punching someone as much as it's shown as totally legit on TV, and number 2, he's a father now, Haley can't always be the one telling him what and how to do things, he needs to start doing them on his own.

Did I mention Carrie's gosta go? Like yesterday.

[killed the lights]

Word Lyn, and besides all that, does Nathan remember what happened last time he fought in a bar? Nearly paralyzed. I know he had the right idea going into it, defending his wife, but your right, he can't go around beating people up because of it.

I don't think anyone can say enough times how much Carrie needs to leave Tree Hill and stay far far away. Too bad that won't be happening anytime soon. Damn this storyline.

[~annie~]

I feel like this season is a redux of S2, on a much smaller scale, because all these things are happening, and no one has any clue why the characters are doing what they're doing. Mark had a vision, I'm guessing the shower scene, and everything is being bent to get that one scene. And the fans are just left to try and rationalize and pull reasons out of our asses as to why Nathan is doing what he's doing, and next episode, I'm sure, why Haley would listen to Carrie at all. This whole thing is just poorly constructed and all for the purpose of seeing a chick no one cares about act like a slut.

Nathan looked bad to me this past episode. I felt like he knew what she was doing. I felt like he gave her permission to disrespect Haley. And I feel like he was guilty in that last scene after Haley's comment about at least he's not going around with another girl. But I don't understand why he's doing or feeling any of these things. And I think that will continue at least through the next episode. They'll just continue to be ambiguous with him because sexually compromising scenes are more important than character integrity.

But, for now at least, I'm not mad. Just resigned and kind of disgusted. I'm putting the same asterisk next to this whole thing that I did in S2. This isn't the character acting like this. This is the plot point being moved along to get to that beautiful vision scene of Mark's. The Nathan I know and love would have lumped Carrie in with people like Jason where she belongs, people that disrespect Haley and therefore should be destroyed.

The more we see of the eps, the less I think the divorce comment will bother me. It still bothers me to some extent because I think it cheapens NH, but right now, and knowing it will probably be more of the same next episode if not worse, I can see where her trust in him is seriously compromised. He may not have done anything technically wrong yet, but he's done nothing right either.

[UDflyer]

Aww, no problem on allowing the thread, guys. I wanted us to all have a place to vent and share our opinions, even if we didn't agree with each other, or agree with the storylines, etc. Glad you like that we've brought it back. LOL. Thanks again, C, for getting it restarted for us.

I'll definitely have some more in depth commentary in here later today. Everyone has made such great points.

I can see how some might have thought Haley was too hard on Nathan, and while I didn't read it that way, mainly because I still think this comes down to, or, for me, a part of what's been so heavily impacting Haley since the start of this season... So much of Haley's angst has come from the fact that her husband got in a bar fight, went through a window, and subsequently it changed her WHOLE life in a way that meant her "losing" her husband in the capacity she'd known him in and Jamie, his father. I get that. I get that fear. She had just told him earlier in the episode, we're so glad to have you back or whatever and then she sees him near getting in a fight to defend her honor. It is so clear for me to see, because they're showing me, just how much this accident has freaked Haley to the core. So, the reaction she gave, I can understand.

Cannot lie, I said a few days ago in the actual rant thread if this story were reversed, that this would play as too ambiguous for Haley's character to ever really survive it without mass amounts of hate, and after seeing 5.07, I am even more convinced of that, furthermore, I do not have a good feeling about how the nanny business plays across in 5.08. Not even a little. I STILL think, regardless of what happens, Nathan is going to play across as way too ambiguous, not in that I think he wants her, but in how he handles things. Because, like I've said before, they've made Carrie way too blatant for Nathan to be this oblivious or to merely sit on his hands, this episode upped that even more. The woman all but told him in plain English, so, no need to try and decipher her actions. She's telling you point blank, and not just that, but the fact that what really irked me last week was that he allowed an outsider in his marriage to almost undermine Haley, what with the whole bikini thing, he again, in this episode comes with... She doesn't need to- I didn't tell her. I think that's horrific writing of his character. To almost condone the secrets in your marriage to someone who is coming on to you. Made of fail. I can be mean for saying that, I'll own it. I think it is horrific writing of his character, without a doubt.

Nathan loves Haley, he love his family, I know he does, I get that, but, some of what they've got going on here? This is almost becoming negligent. Negligent, particularly for a character that prides himself on always protecting and putting his family above else. This woman lives in his home, lives with his child, lives with his wife. Those things in and of themselves make this a whole different ballgame for me, my understanding has maybe become less, because of that. Right now, I'm having a problem reconciling that Nathan is the one in this family who is in a position where he knows and is seeing WAY more than Haley, after this episode, that cannot be argued for me, and he's choosing to leave Haley blind and unaware of matters that could affect her marriage, and have to do with the character of someone taking care of her child. Haley has some insecurities that I would venture to guess many working moms have, and I'm not saying she doesn't need to talk to him about those things... Err, but! The pressing urgency of her insecurities versus the hot mess he's witnessing? She in no way is aware of the level or severity of matters going on, and it's his responsibility to either alert her or get it handled, because she doesn't have any clue of- Preferably both, but, to do nothing? Come on, show.

Before we saw this start to play out, I really, I was like, Nathan really doesn't want to rock the boat after all that's happened, he just so badly wants for things to get better for Haley, so, he leaves the nanny around, but, there comes a point, when that motivation is not enough. Not at the expense of lying/hiding things in regards to your wife and hiding the fact that your nanny is coming on to you like it's going out of style. And, really, for me... All of this is compounded with the fact that now, not only has Nathan repeatedly come with the connotation that it's okay to lie his wife when dealing with Carrie... Let me count the ways... Dan jail visit, Skinnydipping/Bikini, being obviously hit on... None of which is kosher, Haley's got more lies headed her way in regards to Nathan and Carrie, or at least omissions of truth in regards to the kiss, depending upon how Nathan handles that, and, I'm still going with, that shiz will be too ambiguous, but, maybe I'm wrong.

A more subtle situation, I think I would have understood way more, but, Carrie is coming at Nathan in a way that he should be perfectly clear on how and where things stand with this woman. For him to leave this woman in his home, for him to sit back and hand Carrie the keys to undermine his wife. I just think that's blatant disregard in the writing of his character. It doesn't play across well, at least to me.

I joke that I'm so glad that Haley's character isn't the one being pursued, but, conversely I really don't like the naivety or whatever it is they've built in to Nathan's character to make this storyline possible. Nathan Scott knows what a come on looks like, if they truly want me to believe he doesn't given the history of his character, please. And while, he has handled things like Rachel in the past poorly, that is something that cannot be compared in my mind, because for me, part of the ridiculousness of this is that this person is a caretaker for their child, around his family, in their house, and with Rachel, he wasn't starting down the road of... We won't tell Haley, she doesn't need to-. Not like this. That changes things, too.

Oy. Okay, clearly, that got long. I still have lots of more thoughts, which, I'll share later, but, that's a start. LOL.

ETA: Annie- I missed your post, hun. FF and I are fighting, all of the posts don't show up for me, right away, or... And then when I go to post... Anywho! LOL. I loved reading it and I'm definitely going to comment a bit later on it.

[my foolish heart]

First off, thanks so much Caro for getting the thread started and Krys for the reminders. I have a feeling this place is going to be pretty popular the next few weeks.

Krys your posts just always amaze me. You bring up so many wonderful points and I just couldn't agree more. I sort of didn't have a real set opinion on this whole issue because I haven't been too invested in spoilers, just ones I sort of hear through the grapevine, but after last night I'm just getting pissed.

Originally Posted by UDflyer (View Post) I can see how some might have thought Haley was too hard on Nathan, and while I didn't read it that way, mainly because I still think this comes down to, or, for me, a part of what's been so heavily impacting Haley since the start of this season... It is so clear for me to see, because they're showing me, just how much this accident has freaked Haley to the core. So, the reaction she gave, I can understand.

I completely agree. At first I was like, woah Haley, but then when I got to thinking about it, it was totally understandable. As you said, her whole life changed after Nathan's accident and she really had to pick up the pieces for her family. The thought of all that happening all over again, it would freak anyone out. They are finally finding their way back to normal and what Nathan did, it brought her back to how horrible the past few months had been. No sane person would want to go through that again.

I STILL think, regardless of what happens, Nathan is going to play across as way too ambiguous, not in that I think he wants her, but in how he handles things. Because, like I've said before, they've made Carrie way too blatant for Nathan to be this oblivious or to merely sit on his hands, this episode upped that even more. The woman all but told him in plain English, so, no need to try and decipher her actions. She's telling you point blank, and not just that, but the fact that what really irked me last week was that he allowed an outsider in his marriage to almost undermine Haley, what with the whole bikini thing, he again, in this episode comes with... She doesn't need to- I didn't tell her. I think that's horrific writing of his character. To almost condone the secrets in your marriage to someone who is coming on to you. Made of fail. I can be mean for saying that, I'll own it. I think it is horrific writing of his character, without a doubt.

I don't think you are mean for saying that at all! I hate hate hate how they are writing Nathan through all of this. As you said, Nathan knows a come on when he sees it and this girl was obviously throwing herself at him. I mean what more did he need?! Her wearing a big sign that said I'm a home-wrecker and I want to sleep with you?! Cause she was not subtle, not in the LEAST. I can't even tell you how many times my palm hit my forehead. It was painful to watch. And at first I was okay with Nathan just kind of ignoring it. He's all, okay maybe she's drunk and I should just be polite because she's our nanny and I don't want to screw that up. But no. First of all, how inappropriate is it to be getting drunk in front of the people you nanny for? I nannied for a family and I would never even accept a glass of wine from them, I just felt like it's weird to drink with the people whose kid you are taking care of. IDK, maybe that's just me. But I just thought that was way out of line. But anyway, at first I could maybe see Nathan thinking that. But then she just got way out of line. I mean, her dancing with Jason looking straight at him?!! Nathan, go find your wife and stay the hell away from the ho. That's what should have happened. Like why was he standing next to her while Mia was singing? No, just no. Go congratulate your wife on her amazing job.

Nathan loves Haley, he love his family, I know he does, I get that, but, some of what they've got going on here? This is almost becoming negligent. Negligent, particularly for a character that prides himself on always protecting and putting his family above else. This woman lives in his home, lives with his child, lives with his wife. Those things in and of themselves make this a whole different ballgame for me, my understanding has maybe become less, because of that.

And see my thing is, I always blame the writers. I mean, they have just written the character of Nathan so wishy washy for awhile now. And maybe that's just IMO, but I just don't get him sometimes. He's totally being negligent about this all. She should be fired. She is inappropriate and as you've said, completely undermining Haley and her house. Grr, it just makes me so mad. Nathan should at least say to her, you know what I love my wife and I'd really appreciate it if you just stuck to watching Jamie and doing your job. That wouldn't be out of line. If she couldn't handle that, it would be her own fault and she could quit. But no, the writers just let Nathan sit back to see what happens. The girl obviously has crazy eyes, what else do you think is going to happen?! I just don't get it. There are so many out of line things going on with this storyline and I can't even keep them all straight.

ITA with Annie - this is all just stupid plot points for the writers. They think they are getting somewhere with it all, but really all they are doing is ruining their characters. They hardly ever handle drama in the right way and I'm just getting sick of it. Leave NH alone. Guh, I would take endless amount of time spent on the stupid triangle over this shiz.

[UDflyer]

For real, the longer I think about this storyline and how it is unfolding on screen, the more major problems I find with it. I need to not and say I did. So, I apologize for jumping all over the place and maybe not even making any sense, I just... I've got so many thoughts on this storyline. Goodness.

Kye- No problem for the reminders, hun. Thanks for the love on my commentary. And, yes, yes, I'm glad we decided to go with this thread, too. I think future episodes, at least the next couple are going to make this one look like good stuff, and that? Scares.

And, I agree with you. What kind of conduct was that Carrie was exhibiting? I cannot even count the lines she was crossing. For real? I mean, that stuff at the end of the episode? As clear as it gets, she's jumping all over the line.

I feel like this season is a redux of S2, on a much smaller scale, because all these things are happening, and no one has any clue why the characters are doing what they're doing. Mark had a vision, I'm guessing the shower scene, and everything is being bent to get that one scene. And the fans are just left to try and rationalize and pull reasons out of our asses as to why Nathan is doing what he's doing, and next episode, I'm sure, why Haley would listen to Carrie at all. This whole thing is just poorly constructed and all for the purpose of seeing a chick no one cares about act like a slut. Nathan looked bad to me this past episode. I felt like he knew what she was doing. I felt like he gave her permission to disrespect Haley. And I feel like he was guilty in that last scene after Haley's comment about at least he's not going around with another girl. But I don't understand why he's doing or feeling any of these things. And I think that will continue at least through the next episode. They'll just continue to be ambiguous with him because sexually compromising scenes are more important than character integrity.

You've nailed this for me. That's a huge, huge, huge part of this storyline problem for me, the seeming parallels and/or writing ambiguity that seem to mirror season two, not to mention the maturation process the characters should have gone through at least some what since season two. I don't get it. I cannot figure out what on Earth Nathan is thinking, other than, and this they haven't even flat out showed us, I'm just assuming... Anyway, other than him thinking, I'm trying to make things easier for Haley after all that's happened, which, like I said in my post above, I love him and appreciate him for that... But, we've seen pretty much nothing else from him on why he's leaving her around with as blatant as she's become, and what we have seen, has been in the form of Pod!Nathan type stuff... "You look nice, we don't have to tell-, I'm sure Haley didn't mean-, etc." Please with that. Since when is any of that okay? Not to mention the ambiguous looks they have him giving off, when, really, we don't need scenes where he's got whatever expression, we need to know what those thoughts are. Because, for me, there comes a point when that's not enough, just knowing that Nathan sure does mean well. But, but... Nah. I need to know... Why? Why when it gets to this point, when the come ons have escalated to this level? Why with the condoning of the withholding of info from Hal-? I need to see or be shown why... That is what hurt my heart with Haley in season two. They didn't really or at all let us inside of her head, they didn't give her a true voice, and I will always stand behind the fact that it made her much, much, much less sympathetic to many, as a character in regards to season two, because people don't like or want to have to try and make up some motivations for people, they want to be clearly shown, so even when they don't agree with the behavior, they can at least understand it. That is what I need with Nathan, and they're failing miserably, especially because, goodness... They are no longer 16, Nathan isn't new to advances by interested people, he's not naive in regards to his exposure of-, he's not chasing a dream... Things that at least, Haley had going for her then. I can't figure out what on Earth... I believe that. Ambiguity lends itself to all kinds of blurring of the lines and possibly false or unintended perceptions of the characters. End. They've messed this up thus far with Nathan.

Furthermore, the way they've had Carrie come on so strong, I think Nathan is going to look less than stellar when this kiss happens, I just think it's going to play off too ambiguously on top of matters, and that is going to grate on my nerves. Again, not because I think he wants her. Just, in general.

The more we see of the eps, the less I think the divorce comment will bother me. It still bothers me to some extent because I think it cheapens NH, but right now, and knowing it will probably be more of the same next episode if not worse, I can see where her trust in him is seriously compromised. He may not have done anything technically wrong yet, but he's done nothing right either.

I most definitely agree with you here. And, while, being honest, I really have been in the camp of not being as offended by Haley bringing up divorce, I just really haven't been as worried, and I've been that way from the beginning, so, we differ there, which isn't to say I wanted or even condoned it coming down to her saying, we need to divorce or whatever, I just really had a feeling pretty early on, I was going to understand her motivations and why she would throw that out there, however it winds up coming out... If that makes sense.

After seeing these episodes though? I am getting to the point of being even more at peace with things coming to this point, in regards to Haley bringing up divorce. We know that it has to come from her in nine or early ten, because by the time LN are driving, Nathan is just like... She's going to need time, so the crisis has obviously been defused at that point. But, in those moments before that? I cringe to imagine what Haley's going to be feeling and/or thinking, now that I know how many secrets Nathan is going to have under his belt by the time she gets blindsided by the shower incident.

What's happened here, for me... Is that writers have had Nathan set up a situation with Carrie in regards to undermining Haley, and betraying Haley's trust, where... It's not just going to be his secrets he's keeping from Haley, nah. Jokes on Haley, Carrie knew he was lying to her, too. She's just a big ole' fool. Good times. What's Haley to think? He and Carrie, between themselves, are going to have lied about Dan, which was the first thing Carrie knew about that Haley didn't, he's/they're going to have lied about the skinnydipping, he's going to not have told his wife a woman was in their bedroom putting on his pants, he's going to have not told his wife about all of the come ons that have transpired thus far, and he's going to have withheld from her the fact that on top of leaving the nanny around to hit on him and whatever else, he is leaving out that pesky secret of a kiss. Err... If Haley hears even part of this in the form of word vomit from Carrie or if it comes from Nathan himself... It's going to be fug for her, and I'm thinking I'm going to clearly be able to see her stance or feel with her. Because, it's becoming increasingly clear, if it does come from Nathan, all of these things I've mentioned, it's going to come after or as a result of the shower incident, and by then, it's like his hand has been forced, and what choice does he have but to come with the truths? So, lucky Haley, she gets the truth, not because someone was trying to be upfront with her necessarily, but instead, because someone she has put so much faith and trust in, has been backed in to a corner in a situation that looks mighty fug, and then, well, okay Haley. I guess, by default, we have to tell you how this went down from the beginning. Bad times. If it's Carrie, it's still going to be sad and insulting to her, because, for real... I don't want to see Carrie come with, well Nathan, he-! And, Nathan have no choice but to stand there and look dumb because at this point, Nathan's lying to Haley has caused a situation where, Carrie wouldn't have had this power and ability to progress this far without his help. If he's not guilty of anything else, they've made him an enabler. No doubt.

And, another thing, I want to... You know what I think my problem is going to be about whatever transpires with this "indiscretion?" My problem is not going to be about the kiss itself, I don't think, or at least I truly, truly hope not. I really think Nathan only loves his wife, regardless of this kiss.

It's going to be about the ridiculousness and stupidness that has come before it and that will likely follow it. Nathan knows Carrie's flirting with him. He knows it. There is no doubt that he does, I don't care what anyone says. She's way too overt. WAY. She's blatant enough she needs fired. So, whatever transpires from here on out? If they keep Carrie forever, even if he thinks she's going to lay off, even if she starts acting all innocent and goody two shoes, if Carrie wakes up and has turned over a new leaf, or whatever else... Nathan knows what she's about, he's seen her game. His guard should FOREVER be up around her. That's Nathan Scott. He described the difference between himself and Haley to Quentin just recently, it's been evident in past seasons. This is not a dude that comes with the nine million chances and the trust in everyone thing. Not even a little. I won't understand this character not having his guard up around Carrie forever after, from this point, being that he's now armed with the knowledge he has about Carrie and that Carrie is a threat to what we have always been led to believe is what he holds most dear, his family. Why risk that? In any way? That's not Nathan Scott. He needs to keep his distance from her, in my opinion. He needs to take no chances. How is it that Carrie gets close enough to kiss him in the first place? Again, I say... I don't like how they're playing this, because had Nathan not known this woman was wanting in his pants all like this, had this been more subtle, I could try and get there in my head... Nathan knows, and he's going to trust her to be close to him like that? Or, maybe he doesn't trust her, but, Nathan Scott lets his guard down around someone who poses a threat and who he has had the opportunity to get a clear read on? Since when? In what lifetime? Please. Nathan Scott who doesn't- Right. I think they're doing his character a disservice, because Nathan's not all trusting, he's not as dumb as some like to paint him, he's a survivor of Dan and Deb, and I have such a difficult time believing that he's not smarter than this, can't see this, doesn't know better than this. I just cannot fathom...

And, Ky, going back to what you said, I would flove if Nathan told her to get a grip, it would be better than nothing, but, my problem would still be in that, now that they've had him insinuate keeping secrets from Haley is okay... I take issue with the fact that Haley would still be in the dark, which, I'm sorry, this is a caretaker of her child and someone coming on to her husband, these things directly impact her, I firmly believe she needs to know. If this weren't about something or someone in her home around her baby, okay, well.. I could try and understand. I also don't know if I want a situation where they admit Nathan gets it, he circumvents Haley in an attempt to handle things himself, and leaves Carrie around and also leaves his guard down, trying to move forward like all is well, all of that other stuff Carrie was doing and coming with is forgiven and forgotten in his mind, and therefore, he further enables while continuing with the lies of omission. That's... I just think that is no dice. I think they've almost written him in to a corner. I guess we'll see how this plays out, I'm still trying to think, maybe things will play out bette- But, I'm pretty much thinking at this point that things are not... This is just not going to be-

[izziejames]

How did I miss this thread?? It's exactly the thread I need! Hee.

I hate what this storyline is doing to Nathan. It's making him look like the biggest tool ever.

What's happened here, for me... Is that writers have had Nathan set up a situation with Carrie in regards to undermining Haley, and betraying Haley's trust, where... It's not just going to be his secrets he's keeping from Haley, nah. Jokes on Haley, Carrie knew he was lying to her, too. She's just a big ole' fool. Good times. What's Haley to think? He and Carrie, between themselves, are going to have lied about Dan, which was the first thing Carrie knew about that Haley didn't, he's/they're going to have lied about the skinnydipping, he's going to not have told his wife a woman was in their bedroom putting on his pants, he's going to have not told his wife about all of the come ons that have transpired thus far, and he's going to have withheld from her the fact that on top of leaving the nanny around to hit on him and whatever else, he is leaving out that pesky secret of a kiss.

I wanted to quote so much of your post, but this is what makes this storyline so awful for me. Not only is Nathan sharing secrets with Carrie, he's telling Carrie that Haley doesn't have to know, don't worry Haley doesn't know etc. I'm sorry, but WTF? No matter how bad the storyline with Chris was, Haley never made Nathan look like a fool with Chris. She never let Chris have any sort of power over Nathan by way of information that Nathan does and does not know. I rewatched S2 a few weeks ago, and it's amazing how much non-flirting there really was with the Chris storyline. Haley really was kind of blindsided by that first kiss, she had no reason to expect it really. I can't defend the second one, but this whole Carrie thing, Nathan should see coming from a mile away.

[~annie~]

There's a lot of really good posts going on here. Its nice to hear people's thoughts on this incredibly frustrating storyline.

Its frustrating and stupid the way that the writers are portraying Nathan in this. Its really is like they didn't consider his character at all when they laid the story out, just basically used him as a game piece to move from scene to slutty, unpleasant scene with Carrie. They could literally just have a cardboard cut of James standing there because that is how much he seems to react to Carrie. And there's no motivation as to why he's acting that way, and a lot of people are starting to take it as being because he is interested in Carrie. Now, I don't think he is, but the more people talk about the kiss scene in 5.08, it sounds like that's how its going to come off. He lets her in his space to clean him off and he doesn't do anything when she kisses him. They've completely taken out any of Nathan's personality to make this work.

In the aftermath of this, I really do think its going to be like S2 where we had no clue what was going on in Haley's head, but when she came back in S3, they had her telling Nathan why she'd done what she'd done. We shouldn't have to wait that long to find out what's going on in the character's head. Misdirects are crap. What is so hard about telling the story while its happening? Because we're going to be sitting there, listening to Nathan say that he never wanted Carrie, he just wanted Haley to be able to do all the stuff she wanted to do and he didn't want to stress her out. Well, a.) are we going to believe that just because he's saying it after the fact? Because he's let Carrie do all of this crap and not done anything about it. His inaction can be considered encouragement. The ambiguity in this storyline is enough that, even if/when NH patch everything up, there will still always be people that see Nathan as tainted because it seemed like he considered it, that he maybe liked the advances a little bit. And b.) there's a part of this that feels like its blaming Haley for how things went down. Someone on the NH spoiler thread, I think it was you, Izzie, talked about how this storyline almost has the message that if a woman pursues her dreams outside the home, her husband will step out on her and her family will replace her. It seems like Nathan's reasoning could end up looking like... well, if Haley'd been home... If they hadn't needed Carrie because Haley was off doing other stuff besides taking care of her boys, well then, none of this would have happened. And that is bullsht of the highest degree. There is nothing that has happened so far in this storyline that could put on Haley.

And just looking at the basics of the story, and setting aside the fact that it truly is horrible writing, its what you guys have said that makes this SL so bad for me. Its not the ambiguity or the kiss that taints Nathan for me. Its that he's set Haley up to play the fool. He has disrespected her and given someone else, who's intentions are very clear to him, the tools to hurt Haley. Telling a woman that is hitting on him, that has blatantly gone against Haley, that its okay and Haley doesn't need to know everything is, IMO, the worst thing Nathan has done to Haley yet because its disrespectful. He's never been disrespectful to her before. Because when he kept things from her before, it was always about her. Protecting her. This time, it feels like he's protecting Carrie more than Haley, and we know that its going to hurt Haley a lot.

Not a lot on this show affects me on an emotional level, but my heart hurts for how Haley will feel after showergate. Not only having to see Nathan in the shower with another woman, believing that he's cheated on her with a woman she trusted, but then also finding out that he'd known some of her intentions, that he let her get away with this behavior. Not to that extreme, but hitting on him and kissing him. Haley has to find out those things, probably from Carrie herself. Her trust in Nathan, the very foundation of their relationship, will blown all to hell. And I will have a hard time accepting them fixing things if she does not know exactly that he told Carrie that she didn't have to know everything. That he let her behavior slide, even if only for a short time.

There are two things that have to happen in this SL for Nathan to be fixed for me. He has to be the one to fire Carrie and his smackdown after showergate has to be heartless. He needs to give it to the bitch. We've heard that he "freaks out." I'm not going to be okay if that freaking out is just standing there, hurrying to cover himself as Haley gives it to Carrie. No, he has to make the bitch cry. And secondly, he has to realize that he is at fault for how far this went, that it is never okay for Haley to not know things. Part of the reason that this SL is so frustrating is because it shows no character growth for Nathan. He's hurt Haley before by keeping things from her. He has to learn that that can't happen.

Switching gears for a minute, I have a little fear going on right now with the way that Haley is being written this season. I have agreed with Haley every time she's gotten upset so far this season. I feel she's justified, and while none of those angry scenes bother me by themselves, putting them all together I've noticed a little bit of a trend of them writing Haley as mean. Like she's right in what she's saying, but she's maybe takes it one step too far. For example, I loved Haley giving it to Nathan over Jason, and her fear was very real and I like that they let her air that because I don't think Nathan has any real idea of how deeply his accident affected her. But, I thought the comment about Q was mean. Maybe it was the way she said, I don't know, but it felt like striking out rather than just dealing with the issue at hand.

We're probably going to see a lot of Haley venting or being angry in the next few episodes, with Lucas and Peyton, with Nathan (she can be as mean as she wants with Carrie), and she's going to be right and very justified in probably most of what she says. But, I'm kind of afraid right now that that will get lost if she comes off mean rather than hurt and disappointed.

[MadisonJames]

Oh wow, I had no idea there was a thread like this. Hello everyone, I'm Maddie, and I just want to thank you for this thread as it's the best kind of therapy in reading your words and thoughts. I was going to add some of my own but I don't see no point. Everyone has already addressed why I find this storyline so repulsive and expressed it much more eloquently than I ever could. I'm just absolutely disgusted with Nathan right now and this thread was like a calming wave.

But honestly, at this point, I don't even care how irrational or vindictive it is of me, but I'm absolutely giddy that Haley asks for a divorce from Nathan. IMO he absolutely brought this on himself and let it progressed to a point where he put his marriage in jeopardy. I mean no wonder Haley probably won't be able to accept his probable pleas because there is truth to his various wrongdoings. Sure he may not cheat on her, but in many ways he is violating her trust and disrespecting his marriage. And that is just unacceptable to me after everything she had done for him.

Anyways I look forward to reading all the various thoughts in here (or maybe not because this storyline needs to die a quick and painful death).