[sum1]

Originally Posted by -Katie- (View Post) Dear Lost posters, It has come to our attention that tension seems to be rising among the shipper groups and in the process, certain rules have been being broken as a result. As a result, we have decided that we are going to invoke a system that will change how we deal with the ongoing shipper wars and so forth. This system will be called the "3-Strike Rule." The rule is pretty easy to understand. Each shipper group will be given a strike when a rule on the board is broken. Once the shipper group receives three strikes, that thread will be closed down for 24 hours as punishment. We understand that this may appear to be harsh but it has gotten to the point where a simple slap on the hand will not to the trick. It is sad that we had to go this far but this board is supposed to be a place where each poster is treated with nothing but respect for their opinions. Some of the strikes we will be looking for are the following: Bashing of Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet in the Copulator and Hooligan thread Bashing and making fun of any couples. Constructive criticism and comparisons are fine, but it will be our discretion as to whether or not it crosses the line. Bashing either fanbase or taking posts from their thread is not allowed Lurking in the other threads is strongly discouraged and members should leave it up to the mods of that thread to control them (but by all means, if you see a rule being broken, report it) Making fun of titles, or using titles that take jabs at the other fanbase is not allowed On that note, Liz will be watching the Hooligan thread more closely and I will be watching the Copulator thread more closely. Please be respectful of other posters and this rule is activated as of today so please respond to the thread that you understand. Your mods, Katie and Liz

I find this very offensive. What I find particularly offensive is banning bashing of ships everywhere on the board. There should be SOME place on the board where bashing ships is allowed. And unappreciation of certain ships is often a crucial part of unappreciation of certain characters and is thus a fitting form of expression on those character unappreciation threads. Bashing ships, as long as it doesn't involve argument between people of opposing views, is a perfectly valid form of expression. Banning it is banning the expression of particular viewpoints and sections of fandom. That is highly unfair. And with all the bad ship stuff on Lost people have good reason to want to bash ships. All you have to do is restrict ship-bashing to places where where opposing shipping groups won't likely be posting together and ban people taking snipes at each other while they bash ships and ban head-on rows involving bashing ships. Without those problems bashing ships involves no conflict and is a perfectly valid form of expression. Personally I think the dreaded option of allowing ship unappreciation threads is the best solution if it's strictly controlled and monitored (vist Buffy board, ship unappreciation threads have been going on there for years, enjoyed by many posters). But if that's out then at least allowing some ship-bashing on the appropriate character unappreciation threads is only fair. If ship-bashing is totally banned then a whole area of fan opinion and feeling (a major and mainstream area) is silenced and that's just not reasonable. Unhealthy censorship is a big topic these days and I think banning all ship bashing would fall under that heading.

It may be about time I quit coming back to this board.

Edited to add: "Constructive criticism and comparisons are fine, but it will be our discretion as to whether or not it crosses the line." isn't enough leeway. People have bee able to BASH ships and not constantly worry if they're talking out too much against the ship and crossing the line. And why shouldn't people be able to put a little spirit into their criticisms (which makes it bashing)? What's fandom without enthusiasm? People should be allowed to have fun attacking a ship, making fun of a relationship they can't stand. What's Lost board without the fun? The whole "constructive criticism only" thing is unworkable and way too restrictive. Ship-bashing is a basic fandom activity and should be allowed. If it's not this Lost board becomes deficient as a Lost forum, lacking a crucial area of expression.

I'm really distressed to see this.

[Killers Angel Eyes]

I don't like the banning of bashing because it rules out bashing our own ships. Yes that makes no sense but often the characters of our chosen ships act really badly and imo deserve bashing. Only gentle bashnig mind. I can't stand the anti-character threads as they are jsut full of hate. And I don't hate the characters, only their osscaional actions.

[no limits]

You might have to close this thread because there is so much back/forth arguing.

This is why I generally post of episode discussion threads.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by -TheKen- (View Post) You might have to close this thread because there is so much back/forth arguing.

That would be taking the censorship to absolutely FARCICAL levels. Take a look at LJ guys, I've heard they suspended the accounts of rape survivors. Heavy censorship isn't cool, people.

[IceKat055]

I've read & understand the new rules, but I'm with sum1 and KAE...I don't like it. One of the reasons why I adore FF so much is that it promotes Freedom Of Speech. Please, please, let's not turn this place into an uncomfortable environment such as the Fuselage, where every post is heavily monitored/edited/deleted, where censorship reigns supreme, and you have to walk on eggshells.

Confine ship bashing to the appropriate threads, and deal with individual rule breakers on individual levels, but outright banning of all opposing-ship-bashing and closing threads...? Noooo, I'm having Fuse flashbacks... *shudders*

And BTW, thank you, Katie and Liz, for doing such an excellent job here. I know that modding these types of boards can't be an easy thing, and is often thankless work...but you guys are awesome.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by IceKat055 (View Post) I've read & understand the new rules, but I'm with sum1 and KAE...I don't like it. One of the reasons why I adore FF so much is that it promotes Freedom Of Speech. Please, please, let's not turn this place into an uncomfortable environment such as the Fuselage, where every post is heavily monitored/edited/deleted, where censorship reigns supreme, and you have to walk on eggshells. Confine ship bashing to the appropriate threads, and deal with individual rule breakers on individual levels, but outright banning of all opposing-ship-bashing and closing threads...? Noooo, I'm having Fuse flashbacks... *shudders*

Hear hear.

[Liz01]

Sum, I know you're a strong supporter of anti-ship threads, but there is a reason they don't exist on this board. Constant complaints and PM's like this are already happening...and we don't even have anti-shipper threads yet. The thought terrifies me, and Katie who had to deal with it on the OTH board.

Look above all, this forum is about respect and it has always been a peaceful environment. This is how we're trying to maintain that peace, and I know it sucks, and while I understand the right to vent about a couple, we have to balance that with a peaceful environment.

The fact is, we'd allow anti-ship comments if posters just stuck to their threads, but they don't. In fact when a poster ships both couples it can be difficult. And while there are a handful of mature posters like yourself, it would simply turn into an all out warzone in the end.

And there is a huge difference between constructive criticism and bashing. It's pretty obvious, you can draw comparisons between the ships, explain why you think one would be better than another, but you don't need to start attacking it. There's no need.

People should be allowed to have fun attacking a ship, making fun of a relationship they can't stand. What's Lost board without the fun? The whole "constructive criticism only" thing is unworkable and way too restrictive. Ship-bashing is a basic fandom activity and should be allowed. If it's not this Lost board becomes deficient as a Lost forum, lacking a crucial area of expression.

Perhaps it should be, but the fact is, it isn't. Understand, it's difficult enough to moderate these threads (Jate, Skate & Jacket) managing anti-threads would be next to impossible with this board.

I can't stand the anti-character threads as they are jsut full of hate.

And what would anti-shipper threads be filled with? The same thing. They're just counterproductive all around.

Like I've said countless times, you can enjoy your couple perfectly fine without bashing the other ship. It's not needed.

You might have to close this thread because there is so much back/forth arguing. This is why I generally post of episode discussion threads.

As tempting as it is because this thread is filled with arguments, I feel the need to keep it open. We understand this is harsh, and yes while I can understand it's censoring people, it has to be done. The amount of drama from this past week alone has just piled up on us, and we're sick of our warnings not being taken seriously. We're sorry if this will deter posters, it's not our intention but this is our last resort. This board has become so negative, almost all the threads have become so negative, it's *kept* people from posting, as we've seen. It's a double edged sword either way. There has to be some level of cooperation from all groups, it'll be better for the board all around.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by Liz01 (View Post) Sum, I know you're a strong supporter of anti-ship threads, but there is a reason they don't exist on this board. Constant complaints and PM's like this are already happening...and we don't even have anti-shipper threads yet. The thought terrifies me, and Katie who had to deal with it on the OTH board.

So you can allow some ship-bashing on the appropriate character unappreciation threads. Fair compromise.

Look above all, this forum is about respect

What about respecting the right to express differing views in one's own style, such bashing a ship? I'm sorry but I think it's disrespectful toward the posters to silence such a basic form of fan expression. I'm personally offended.

There's nothing disrespectful toward any real person in bashing a ship. You might disrespect the characters in the process but you're not disrespecting anybody else (or anybody real) unless you break the rules and bash them too, which ISN'T bashing a ship. There's nothing whatosoever disrespectful about bashing a ship. I think bashing is being unfairly vilified here.

and it has always been a peaceful environment. This is how we're trying to maintain that peace,

That sort of argument can be used to justify all sorts of tyrannical measures (and it has been used that way in many societies), it's a false argument. All sorts of draconian measures can get justified in the name keeping the peace. Peace isn't worth all that much if you take away too much freedom. And you just don't need to take away all that much freedom.

and I know it sucks, and while I understand the right to vent about a couple, we have to balance that with a peaceful environment.

I'm sorry but I don't see any such balance in this. There's no balance in saying "absolutely no bashing of ships allowed anywhere on this board". Balance would be saying "Ok, we'll allow bashing of ships on the appropriate character unappreciation threads". That would be balancing freedom of expression and peace and giving something to both. And they both need to be given something, freedom is as essential as peace if the board's to be a true fan and discussion board. Peace without freedom is the peace of the grave. I don't want to post on a board like that.

The fact is, we'd allow anti-ship comments if posters just stuck to their threads, but they don't.

If you can enforce a rule saying no bashing then you can enforce a rule saying keep it to thre right threads.

In fact when a poster ships both couples it can be difficult.

Posters on an unappreciation thread for a character are unlikely to ship the character with anybody, so they're not likely to have a problem with bashing a ship the character is in. Heck, if they do somehow ship the character they hate with somebody they probably have issues with the ship themselves and won't mind the ship being bashed. Any problem in this area (with ship bashing on the appropriate character unappreciation threads) is small and not enough reason to totally a ban a major form of expression.

And while there are a handful of mature posters like yourself, it would simply turn into an all out warzone in the end.

It wouldn't. It HASN'T. People have been bashing couples on the appropriate character unappreciation threads for years and that's not where your big problem has been. It hasn't turned into a war zone. Your warzone has been elsewhere. I can't see any justificiation for not letting the practice continue as it has for years.

And there is a huge difference between constructive criticism and bashing. It's pretty obvious, you can draw comparisons between the ships, explain why you think one would be better than another, but you don't need to start attacking it. There's no need.

There most definitely is need. There's no grounds for saying there's no need. There's need because it's a basic form of fan expression and it's only fair to allow fans to express their views and feelings like that. It's a big chunk of fan expression and it shouldn't be silenced like that.

And really the difference between criticism and bashing is by no means so clear, the borderline is a very grey area. That uncertainty can restrict people even more.

Perhaps it should be, but the fact is, it isn't. Understand, it's difficult enough to moderate these threads (Jate, Skate & Jacket) managing anti-threads would be next to impossible with this board.

So allow bashing of ships on the appropriate character unappreciation threads. I think if anti-ship threads are not going to be allowed then AT LEAST some ship-bashing on the appropriate character unappreciation threads should be allowed.

And what would anti-shipper threads be filled with? The same thing. They're just counterproductive all around.

That's a totally unfair comment. I could just as easily say that shipper threads are filled with the same thing so they're counterproductive. These threads only look counterproductive to people who don't like them. Just because somebody doesn't like something doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Anti threads serve a purpose and are enjoyed by lots of people. You yourself enjoyed bashing Ana Lucia for a long time. BASHING her, not just "constructive criticism".

Anti-ship threads aren't necessarily counterproductive all around. They haven't been on Buffy board, for example. They've been very helpful on that board. And I don't see how allowing ship-bashing on the appropriate character unappreciation threads would be counter-productive. Remember, bashing a ship the character is in is often PART of unappreciating the character. I think it's unfair to take that away from the character unappreciation threads.

Like I've said countless times, you can enjoy your couple perfectly fine without bashing the other ship. It's not needed.

I don't see what it has to do with enjoying a couple. Bashing a ship is not about enjoying the opposing couple it's about disliking the ship you're bashing. And yes such bashing is needed. It's needed because it's a basic and natural form of fan expression and it should be served on a board that claims to serve a wide range of views and posting styles. Tolerance and allowance for such bashing is needed same as it's needed for any other basic type of fan view and expression.

We understand this is harsh, and yes while I can understand it's censoring people, it has to be done.

I have to disagree. I don't think such a total ban is needed at all. I can understand a less absolute ban but not a total one.

The amount of drama from this past week alone has just piled up on us

Did it come from people bashing ships on the appropriate character unappreciation threads? Was there big drama from that? Because that's been going on for years and I don't think it's caused any big drama. I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

We're sorry if this will deter posters, it's not our intention but this is our last resort.

I don't think the total ban on ship bashing is a necessary part of that last resort.

This board has become so negative, almost all the threads have become so negative, it's *kept* people from posting, as we've seen.

Harsh censorship is a very big negative.

It's a double edged sword either way.

To me that means one should be careful going too far either way with it.

There has to be some level of cooperation from all groups, it'll be better for the board all around.

I don't think eveybody will agree that ALL the restrictions will be better for the board.

[BiCaRdiBrEeZa]

Woah there just fictional characters guys.. i really don't understand the need to bash them. Sure its fun to mock them and joke about them every one and awhile but i just don't see the big deal. I think Liz and Katie are being really fair and at the end of the day they are the mods, the ones who look after this board for us so their decisions deserve a little respect.

[some mad hope]

^ Yes..

It's a hard gig to be a mod and to try to be fair to everyone. That's just not possible. You can't please everyone. Liz and Katie defintley deserve a lot of respect for their decision even if one does not agree with it because they are trying to do what's best for the board. Making a decision for your board is hard enough as it is.. cuz you know that some people will not like it..so a little respect is the least anyone can give them whether they agree or not IMO.

[Killers Angel Eyes]

Well when all is said and done, I will try to stick to the rules (can't promise since Kate has tendancies to act like a total bitch) but I do not like them. If it all gets too much, I'll just give up shipping and posting in forums.

[-Chemical Wonder-]

I understand what you're saying, but you have to realise that when you nickname an Italian woman "Pizza" and call her a bitch, you're going offend people (Italians, for example ), and you're going to drive away the people who like the chemistry between Evie and Matt but don't particularly want to actually ship them together (or even see Jack and Kate together romantically). I've tried going to that thread a couple of times in the last year, but every time I do it just feels incredibly hostile - from calling Dom a hobbit, to saying that Matt and Evie's significant others aren't attractive enough for them, to complaining about posters on other forums, to calling Margherita names etc. Jaters and Skaters get told off for even joking about the other ship, so why should Matt/Evie "shippers" get to bash and give people borderline-racist nicknames?

I've never called her that personally and don't find it very funny and given the fact that I'm Jewish I'm very sensitive to all the racial comments. However, I can't control the posters at the thread nor should I seeing as I'm not a moderator of this board. If someone had a major problem with the comments said, they should've addressed it to the mods who I'm sure would've dropped by, edited and warned us. Since no one ever said a word up until this week, I guess we assumed everyone was seeing it at the same humorous way we were. Guess not. But that's cool, I know that when I get back to posting in this board I'll watch my words.

[~DresdenDoll~]

Woah there just fictional characters guys..

Seriously! You'd think it's the fate of human race that is being discussed here

I just don't get why people are taking this so seriously. I've seen titles/comments "offending" my ship and is it hurtful? Sure! For a moment you're pissed and annoyed as to why them don't get your preferences but then there's this magic thing happening called "getting over it" Why should I care about what some group of people on the internet thinks of characters/couples I like

That being said I'm not pro bashing nor anti threads. I think these things tend to bring much more negativity into the communities than anything else. I guess it's more understandable for me to spend my time on the net gushing and overanalyzing things I like than bash and spit on things I don't... But I totally don't mind if my ship is mocked or criticized. Especially since I'm capable of doing the same with the things I enjoy.

we assumed everyone was seeing it at the same humorous way we were

*is confused* But you said in the very first sentence that you don't find this funny...
And why shouldn't you say anything even if you're not a mod? If something makes you uncomfortable or you think it's too much why not voicing the concern? You don't need to babble on to the mods immediately, a simple polite "guys can you please not call them this, I think it's a bit too much" would probably be enough. Especially on a thread that you spend some time on and you know the posters there.

[Crystaline]

Originally Posted by ~DresdenDoll~ (View Post) I just don't get why people are taking this so seriously. I've seen titles/comments "offending" my ship and is it hurtful? Sure! For a moment you're pissed and annoyed as to why them don't get your preferences but then there's this magic thing happening called "getting over it" Why should I care about what some group of people on the internet thinks of characters/couples I like

That's what I'm saying. To go tattling to a mod over a title/comment not in favor of your ship on a thread you don't even post at seems a bit silly to me.

[IceKat055]

Originally Posted by ~DresdenDoll~ (View Post) I just don't get why people are taking this so seriously. I've seen titles/comments "offending" my ship and is it hurtful? Sure! For a moment you're pissed and annoyed as to why them don't get your preferences but then there's this magic thing happening called "getting over it" Why should I care about what some group of people on the internet thinks of characters/couples I like

Therein lies the heart of the matter. People on this board should know how to govern themselves, both in posting, and reading posts. If someone bashes your ship/fave character, and you don't like it...? Get over it. Not everyone thinks Sawyer is hot, not everyone thinks Jack is a hero, not everyone thinks Jate is Fate or Skate is hotter...and that's okay. But if you're going to be so delicate as to get your feelings hurt and/or lash out over negative comments like that, then you really have no business in any fandom. "If you can't take the heat", and all that.

However, I agree that ship/character bashing should be relegated to specific threads. I see the point about some people shipping both Skate and Jate, Jate and Jacket, etc, and so perhaps the ship bashing should be kept to a minimum in shipper threads. I agree with sum1 (again), and don't see why anti-ship threads would cause a problem. I'd post quite happily in an anti-Jate thread, but what reason would I ever have to go into an anti-Skate thread...they're my couple! And if I ever did go into an anti-Skate thread and get my feelings hurt, then it'd be my own damn fault, and no way would I go crying to Katie or Liz, making their lives more difficult, just because I can't mind my own business or handle other people's opinions about my couple.

I guess my point is, posters should be responsible for themselves. You don't want to read anti-Jate comments? Stay out of the anti-Jate threads, and don't go crying to the mods if you don't. They would exist to serve a purpose, and that purpose wouldn't fit your own personal agenda. Therefore...? Do the math!

IMO, Katie and Liz should only need worry about personal attacks on individual posters, which should not be tolerated in any form. Or in the event that someone begins bashing Sawyer/Kate/Skate in the pro-Skate thread. Other than that...aren't we all big people here? Can't we police ourselves a little better?

Just my $.02.