Without A Trace - It's 10pm. Do You Know Where Your WAT DVD/Tapes Are? - Page 5

Smilla · 07-12-2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emily_reich

well, as per jack's divorce and viv losing her promotion basically because of it... i'll agree that as much as i like jack, i do have mixed feelings, partly cuz i like viv MORE and partly cuz jack's divorce got us the ep which was, in my humble opinion of course, the most boring of the season (not even because there was no MP case)... i certainly felt bad for viv losing her promotion but at the same time IIRC it's not completely jack's fault, as he asks for a lower position and it's his boss that gives him his old job back instead... so, like i said... mixed feelings...

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

About Vivian's promotion, I didn't really like the way that was handled and I felt bad for Vivian. Although I never wanted Jack to leave and I wanted him to have his old job back (he's one of my favorites, sue me), I think it could have been dealt with differently. If the writers weren't going to have Vivian keep the job, it should have been written that she left that position on her own, somehow, not for it to have been taken from her like that.

I didn't like Vivian in her boss role, while I like her character, she did not convince me as boss, i think she lacks the spark that gives Jack the edge to be a good boss, after all. So I couldn't see a team lead by nobody but Jack, This said, it was fun, in way, seeing Jack working under her direction, it was so difficult for Jack not giving orders, and in Thou Shalt Not Fault, we got to see they butting head (is this the right sentence?) regarding the way to approach the case (I think Martin went home dizzy

)
As for the way it was handled, I like it.. I mean nobody was a fault there, not Jack, not Vivian, and this makes the story more believable for me, because sometime, life just sucks and it's nobody fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

Well, Jack is my 2nd favorite character, and while I respect other people not liking him so much (we all agree to disagree so very well here on our board!), I really don't see how it seemed like Jack's past wasn't realistic or solidly based just because we didn't see (onscreen) alot of build-up about it over several episodes. I think that's one of the great things about WAT in that the writers subtly gives us hints of problems or issues that a character is facing without dwelling on such issues in every single episode. Personally, I don't need to be hit over the head with something all the time in order to actually get it.

I agree with you on this, Nikki. Even if the lack of hints during Clare de Lune is a major break of continuity (or maybe at the time TPTB had yet to add that part to Jack past). During Season One, we could see Jack was touched by the cases in a deep way even if the writers didn't explain why.
My problems with too much tragic revelations it's that they are the past, while I like to see the characters grow through their job. I like to see them making mistakes or wrong assumptions, and learning from them. This makes them more human.
Jack has done his share of mistakes and error in judgment (I'm not referring to the affair with Samantha that does not endear Jack character to me) I'm thinking more of the big mistake he did in the Spaulding case, or in Thou Shalt not Fault, about the bombing. Plus, Jack has distanced himself from his team, resulting in his agents distancing themselves from him. Now, for the next season it's probable that we'll see Jack trying to learn from his mistakes, and this is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

Regarding Jack's divorce, while I can understand how Marie couldn't get past the affair with Sam and how Jack is such a workaholic, she should not have made it seemed like she was willing to work on the marriage when she really wasn't. She was a true bitch at the end, simple as that. Her behavior was cruel and unnecessary.

I disagree on this aspect. Marie was bitchy in her behavior, but not more at fault than Jack was. Divorces are nasty things and people do hateful things during them, fact is that love become hate in the span of a minute. I don't want to condone Marie, but defining her a bitch is too much, I think. Both Jack and his wife have responsibilities for the ending of their marriage, and I find amusing, if not strange, that Marie learn of the circumstances of death of Jack mother only when she does. This imply a severe lack of communication.
That’s my two bits, for now

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrieross

Last night.... oh, please, someone tell me a good typical American exclamation!!

Glad you liked, I liked it so much

carrieross · 07-12-2005, 08:13 AM

Okay. Well, Nikki, very funny your 'we all agree to disagree so very well here on our board'

I can judge WAT characters as far as epi n. 8 of S2, so this personal chart of mine might be changing in the next future, anyway my fav characters so far are:
1 Danny (of course!!)
2 Martin
3 Jack
4Vivian
5 Samantha

I repeated dozens of times that I like all of them, though, only some more and some less...

I may not have noticed Jack's behavior hints b/c I didn't pay attention. For instance, rewatching S1 and the beginning of S2, I noticed many hints about Danny's alcoholism, but there I was paying much attention!
Although I felt there was something fake about his mother's issue... I just didn't happen to be involved at all!

Nobody for a fast comment on A tree falls? I loved it!

**NikNak** · 07-12-2005, 12:14 PM

"A Tree Falls" was a great episode, Ross!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smilla

I disagree on this aspect. Marie was bitchy in her behavior, but not more at fault than Jack was. Divorces are nasty things and people do hateful things during them, fact is that love become hate in the span of a minute. I don't want to condone Marie, but defining her a bitch is too much, I think. Both Jack and his wife have responsibilities for the ending of their marriage.

Well, I never said that Marie was more at fault than Jack was, nor that Jack didn't have any responsiblity for the deterioration and ending of his marriage, because I definitely think they BOTH share the blame. However, my main point is regarding Marie's behavior, and I still stand by the fact that she was a total bitch at the end. There was absolutely no reason for her to put Jack through that grueling interrogation in his office and bring up horrible demons from his past. To serve what purpose? Just her own personal satisfaction in seeing him crumble. Also, she made it seem like she was willing to work things out with him when he quit his job and was going to move with her and their children, when all the while, she had no freakin' intention of doing such a thing. IMO, she planned it all along, and to me, that's just hateful. Don't get me wrong, though. Like I mentioned before, I understand that an affair is an extremely painful and hurtful situation to go through (Believe me, I know, because I have been through it myself) and it can be very difficult thing to get past, if you're even able to. And, numerous times, I have called Jack an ass for what he did to Marie regarding the affair, and other things, but at the same time, I feel I can call Marie out on her behavior during the divorce.

carrieross · 07-13-2005, 12:44 AM

Last night I watched Trip box.
I hope I have time to read its transcript, today, b/c I didn't catch a **** of what they said! Maybe I was tired! Maybe I'm not such a wonderful English listener!

For the little I understood, I didn't like it.

Oh, Danny was in 1,... 2,... wow, 3 whole scenes! I was overwhelmed by his continuous presence! Too much!

**NikNak** · 07-13-2005, 01:01 PM

Aww, yeah, I missed Danny in that episode, too.

Smilla · 07-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

There was absolutely no reason for her to put Jack through that grueling interrogation in his office and bring up horrible demons from his past. To serve what purpose? Just her own personal satisfaction in seeing him crumble. Also, she made it seem like she was willing to work things out with him when he quit his job and was going to move with her and their children, when all the while, she had no freakin' intention of doing such a thing. IMO, she planned it all along, and to me, that's just hateful.

(I so love when we disagree

)
I haven't seen Malone vs Malone so I can't comment on that part of your reply, maybe tomorrow or later. And I'm sorry you got the impression I was attacking Jack, quite the opposite in fact. I like Jack most of the times, he is sometime my 2nd fav character, too. What I was trying to say is that people do nasty things to each others and don't think or don't care if the other is hurt in the process. Marie had her own agenda: keeping her daughters with her, and she did all in her power to fulfill that agenda, she didn't care for Jack's feelings, she didn't care for Jack period.
As far as the transfer goes, I don't think she expected Jack to accept to move with her (Jack refused the first time she presented the option), it's true she was planning it all along, and it's true that Jack was trying to make his marriage work, but from Marie perspective, it was already late.
In the last, anyway, I agree with you, the way she behaved was hateful.

**NikNak** · 07-13-2005, 08:30 PM

No need to apologize at all. I love when we disagree, too.

Quote:

What I was trying to say is that people do nasty things to each others and don't think or don't care if the other is hurt in the process. Marie had her own agenda: keeping her daughters with her, and she did all in her power to fulfill that agenda, she didn't care for Jack's feelings, she didn't care for Jack period. As far as the transfer goes, I don't think she expected Jack to accept to move with her (Jack refused the first time she presented the option), it's true she was planning it all along, and it's true that Jack was trying to make his marriage work, but from Marie perspective, it was already late.

You know, I can see where you're coming from here. It probably was a little too late, from Marie's viewpoint, and anything Jack did to salvage the marriage at this point wouldn't be looked upon in a positive, productive light. I just wished she didn't act so vindictive, because I didn't hate her behavior as much (I could emphathize with her to an extent) until I saw "Malone vs. Malone".

And, I didn't know that you haven't seen that episode yet. I'm sorry about that. Let me know what you think, after you've seen it, and we can discuss some more.

emily_reich · 07-13-2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

I just wished she didn't act so vindictive, because I didn't hate her behavior as much (I could emphathize with her to an extent) until I saw "Malone vs. Malone".

yeah, i actually could find myself siding with her to some extent during much of the show (i mean, much as i love jack and all... if i were her i woulda left him too

)... but then in malone vs malone she was just WAY over the top intentionally taking ANY stabs she could and trying to make jack feel and look as bad as she possibly could... i actually liked jack a LOT more than i had before at the end of the episode when he told her he just wanted to stop and she could take the kids... cuz i know custody battles can get UGLY and surely the one in that ep was no exception, so glad to see him take the high road in at least that one case...

carrieross · 07-14-2005, 12:15 AM

Sorry, I can't take part to this discussion, as I'm still watching S2.

I watched Moving on: my english comprehension made me more company this time, so I pretty understood everything.
Good, not impressive episode. Samcentric. Let's say it was nice to watch.

Meredith44 · 07-15-2005, 12:43 AM

OMG, there is so much I want to respond to! (Can I say how happy I am that there is discussion!

)

In no particular order...
I used to love Jack. I love Jack in episodes such as "Bogie Man" in which he is smart, sarcastic, and just what I consider Jack-like. I hate it when he is (to quote Sawyer) a "no-fun, navel-gazing, mopey type". He needs an edge in my opinion. Regarding his past popping up randomly, I don't think it does. I don't think he showed as much of a reaction to the suicide thing in Clare de Lune for a couple of reasons. First, it happened so many years ago and it seems that Jack has done his best to suppress the memory of it. Second, Jack seems the type not to show his emotions all that much about anything. He seems to tend to repress it as best he can (which sometimes results in some spectacular blow-outs when he finally loses his control.) I mean, just look at his reactions to Spaulding. He puked in "Suspect", so he was obviously affected by the situation, but he didn't show all that much emotion (if I remember correctly) when Spaulding got off in "AYNOHYEB". And then in "Malone vs. Malone", yes, he lost it when he tossed the chair, but look at him before and after. Except for the actual incident, he seemed to be trying to stay as controlled as possible. I'm sure the team heard about the event through office gossip, but if it weren't for that factor, it wouldn't surprise me if they never found out about the whole procedings and Jack's feelings regarding them. As Jack told Lisa at the end of this season, he doesn't share his feelings/problems with his team. I would think that he would be even less likely to share his feelings/problems with the relative strangers that he encounters while working on cases. I think if they had him constantly bringing up emotions about the past, I would find that more inconsistant and jarring than what they are doing.

Regarding how Maria treated Jack, I can see it. In fact, I don't really blame her all that much for doing what she did. First, regarding the divorce. I agree that it would have been better for her just to flat out say, "I am leaving you, Jack and going to Chicago." However, given Jack's track record and attitude at that time, I could see why she would have thought that he would say that he couldn't move, and then she could have left him without having to tell him that she wasn't in love with him anymore. Sure, it would have been a bit of a cop-out, but I could see her rationalizing it as a way to spare his feelings. Regarding the custody issue, I can also understand (and forgive) her actions. Jack might love his daughters, but, honestly? From what we have seen, he is a terrible father. First of all, his job isn't condusive to being a single father. He can be called out at all hours of the day/night and stay out for extended periods of time. (We have seen him pull more than one all-nighter.) Also, his family has been threatened by perps before, so that isn't so ideal either. Then, you get into his past behavior with his kids. He has put his job ahead of his daughters' welfare and doesn't seem to have been there for most of the "little" moments (such as taking his daughters to school.) Now, we haven't seen much of Maria as a mother, but everything we have been shown seems to indicate that she was pretty involved. With all this in mind (plus the problems with joint custody when the parents reside in cities that are so far apart), I can't say that I wouldn't be like Maria and do whatever I could to keep full custody of my children. I think that she was trying to get Jack to face the facts rather than draw the whole process out into a messy trial. With as stubborn as Jack is, it seems that it really would take something like confronting him with all of his past emotional issues, problems to get him to acknowledge that maybe if he loves his girls as much as he says he does, that he might want to consider that the best place for them is with their mother. Wow, that was a long response!

Regarding "A Tree Falls"... I liked that episode a lot. It doesn't hurt that Martin got a lot of juicy emotional material! But, even without that, I thought the case was interesting and had some nice twists to it.

Regarding "Moving On"... I liked the episode. I thought that the main missing persons story was very poignant. I also liked the letter thing at the end. (That was in "Moving On", right?) While it was a little Samantha-centric, I don't have a problem with that because it was intertwined with the case rather than having the character stuff be the major focus of the episode.

I liked "Trip Box". It isn't one of my top-10 favorites, but I thought it was rather enjoyable. I seem to be different from a lot of you when it comes to judging episodes. My first criterion is that the missing person's case is interesting. I need to care about the missing person and the story needs to be complex enough to keep my interest without being overly convoluted or contrived. I don't particularly care if one agent or another is more prevalant in the solving of the case as long as personal issues don't overwhelm said case. Of course, if the personal stuff is handled well enough, then that can add another level to the case. My favorite episodes are the ones that have a great case with a perfect level of personal character emotions/actions/history. So, as I thought the missings persons case in "Trip Box" was emotional enough and compelling enough, I didn't particularly care what else happened and I enjoyed it. I hope that made sense!

I think I addressed everything. Even if I didn't, I think the post is long enough to stop anyway!

I am having the worst time with FF tonight! I keep getting a "Cannot find server" message, but when I refresth, I can usually end up getting where I need to go. Usually... *sigh* If I werent' so unsure of when I will next be able to get online, I would give up now. I still might, because this is so frustrating! (I think it might be a sign I should be doing other things. I really want to get this really long reply posted, though, as I spent a decent amount of time composing it. *double sigh*) I apologize in advance if all of this refreshing makes me inadvertently double (or even triple!) post.

carrieross · 07-15-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merdith44

I don't particularly care if one agent or another is more prevalant in the solving of the case as long as personal issues don't overwhelm said case. Of course, if the personal stuff is handled well enough, then that can add another level to the case. My favorite episodes are the ones that have a great case with a perfect level of personal character emotions/actions/history. So, as I thought the missings persons case in "Trip Box" was emotional enough and compelling enough, I didn't particularly care what else happened and I enjoyed it. I hope that made sense!

Uff, FF is sooo sloow!

Well, unfortunately I'm Danny addicted, so it does matter to me who is the agent involved in the case.

Said so, if the case is good in itself, I enjoy it anyway. For example, I liked Moving on and there was no particular trace of Danny in it!
So I partially agree that I must care about the case... not what I felt about the fireman in Trip box! I must repeat that my English, or their English, I don't know, that night was on strike, so I watched a sort of a silent movie, and I might have lost important dialogues.

Jack in Clare de Lune had a specific dialogue with Danny: the latter told him he lost his parents when he was 11, Jack answered with a joke about how he was relieving it, Danny called him dr. Freud. Jack was smiling and perfectly cool. His expression wasn't the one of someone who's thinking he was an orphan, too. I wouldn't like a complaining Jack in every episode, but I still think it should be something more than a sudden guilt.

Last night I watched Coming home and Exposure. I'll comment only the first one, cuz I was too tired for the second one, and understood less English than usual.

I liked Coming home very much, I did care about the missing person, I was sad by the end, I loved Danny's looks (for what I saw, he'll end up being a generic!!

).
I'm getting used to consider Martin the main character, which is not bad, but my heart is bleeding...

Smilla · 07-15-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

You know, I can see where you're coming from here. It probably was a little too late, from Marie's viewpoint, and anything Jack did to salvage the marriage at this point wouldn't be looked upon in a positive, productive light. I just wished she didn't act so vindictive, because I didn't hate her behavior as much (I could emphathize with her to an extent) until I saw "Malone vs. Malone".

I'm happy I was able to make myself clear. And probably, the intention o TPTB was exactly to make us (vieviers) hate Marie behaviour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meredith44

As Jack told Lisa at the end of this season, he doesn't share his feelings/problems with his team. I would think that he would be even less likely to share his feelings/problems with the relative strangers that he encounters while working on cases. I think if they had him constantly bringing up emotions about the past, I would find that more inconsistant and jarring than what they are doing.

I think this is the major Jack problem, his inability to express his feelings. As I noticed before, he said to his wife about his mother only when he did, if he couldn't talk about a traumatic event of his life with the (supposedly) closest person to him I don't think he would talk about it with a complete stranger. It's not easy for Jack to talk about his emotions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emily_reich

i actually liked jack a LOT more than i had before at the end of the episode when he told her he just wanted to stop and she could take the kids... cuz i know custody battles can get UGLY and surely the one in that ep was no exception, so glad to see him take the high road in at least that one case...

Now that I've seen Malone vs Malone I can comment on the episode. I agree with you here, Jack made the right choice in the end. Actually, I think he redeemed himself with that decision. He didn't made a good impression as father during the deposition, but he was a great father for renouncing to draw the process for who knows how long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meredith44

I think that she was trying to get Jack to face the facts rather than draw the whole process out into a messy trial. With as stubborn as Jack is, it seems that it really would take something like confronting him with all of his past emotional issues, problems to get him to acknowledge that maybe if he loves his girls as much as he says he does, that he might want to consider that the best place for them is with their mother. Wow, that was a long response!

Yes, it was

I must admit that still I don't think Marie was a bitch, sorry Nikki. I gave a special attention to her posture during the deposition and she came across as unfeeling and cold. But this is just the point, she doesn't care for Jack, all she wants to obtain is to keep her daughters with her. Was it necessary to put Jack trough that? I don't really know, maybe she thought, as Meredith says that it was the only way to make he realize his shortcomings as husband and father. Would I have done the same? I don't think so, but I can't say for sure.
As far as the fav episodes goes, I like Moving On, Trip Box and Tree Falls very much mostly because I felt invested in the MP case (the letter at the end on Moving On was done very well). I forgot to comment on Our Sons And Daughters, a great episode and one I can't easily forget. I must admit that I’m liking most of S2 episodes, I try to give them a fair chance, no matter who is the most involved character.

**NikNak** · 07-18-2005, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrieross

Well, unfortunately I'm Danny addicted, so it does matter to me who is the agent involved in the case.

I agree.

Danny is my favorite character, too, so of course, if he is the dominant agent in the case, that is going to make me love the episode, for the Danny aspect of it. Now, if, on top of that, the actual missing case is good, then that is even better, like an added bonus.

I must admit, though. There are many episodes that became some of my favorites due to the missing case involved, no matter who the dominant agent is, and of course, I seriously just love the show overall, but in my shallowness, yes, I always want to see Danny more.

emily_reich · 07-18-2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNak

I must admit, though. There are many episodes that became some of my favorites due to the missing case involved, no matter who the dominant agent is, and of course, I seriously just love the show overall, but in my shallowness, yes, I always want to see Danny more.

ooh! me too

one of my faves from season 1 is actually hang onto me, which has almost no danny in it... but then all my other faves DO have lots of danny, so... you can see where my interests lie

carrieross · 07-19-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik-Nak

I must admit, though. There are many episodes that became some of my favorites due to the missing case involved, no matter who the dominant agent is, and of course, I seriously just love the show overall, but in my shallowness, yes, I always want to see Danny more.

As I said, I agree on the point that an episode may be considered beautiful by me even with little Danny in it, for instance 'Our sons and daughters' in S2, but if Danny is much into a case, apart from exceptions (Victory for humanity:

) I'm quite sure I will like that episode a whole lot!

I watched Hawks and handsaws: a good example of what I come to say. I liked it really much, and much sweet Danny in it, and, as usual, it has already voted off!