[allyanndanes]

Hello !

How do the idea of creating a season three by ourselves go ?

Usually, I'm not a fanfic reader not because I don't like fanfic, I don't have enough time to do it. To be honest, I'm not so interested by teen pregnancy ...
Anyway ... I really like the idea of writing a season 3.

Originally Posted by Indian Summer My biggest concern, however, is not letting personal opinions interfere too greatly. I want the episodes to feel similar to the way the show went.

How could to do this happen and in the same time let the author be himself ? I suppose it's hard to write something on command. I don't know I'm not a writer myself.

Could we suggest ideas ? How could we find people interested to give their ideas ? I'm really concerned by the fact that this board might be very slow in the future ...

I hate CBS !

[shrams]

For what it's worth:

As I understand it from my friend who was a writer and producer for the Pretender Virtual Season, one of the biggest problems they had was keeping things "in character" for the show. Some of the writers, or potential writers, had very definite ideas about how they wanted certain storylines or relationships to go, and didn't like being told that it didn't fit with the overall storyline that was planned. They didn't like the idea of having certain people deciding "this is where we're going". The Producers had a different agenda (and perhaps eventually had a better understanding of what it's like for real showrunners) than some of the staff writers or audience. It wasn't like a fan fic round robin, where people pretty much add to what was done previously, write their own little bit, whatever they want, and pass it on to someone else. This was meant to be structured as a TV show, with 22 episodes to a season, with the stories written so they were similar to what one would see on television. For instance, if a writer was insistent that a particular couple must get together, and the producers had their own reasons why that would mess things up, that writer would have to either cooperate with the overall plan, or have their story rejected. It was very much in the spirit of a show helmed by people who passionately cared about it, and wanted to see it follow an overall plan. Sort of like what I felt Barbara Hall should have done with S2 of Joan, when instead it felt like writers were just allowed to do whatever they wanted, and introduced new characters without regard for pre-existing storylines, or ignoring continuity in favor of "a better idea" and so forth.

There are many other ways to do a fan fic version of a third season, and some people may prefer something less structured. For myself, I get annoyed by fan fic series where each writer does their own thing, without regard for what was written before or what may come after. In other words, depending on how the fan fic season is run, if a writer wanted to have a story where Adam didn't cheat on Joan, it was all a bad dream, or the devil made him do it, that's something that might annoy a lot of the readers, who feel it would be an easy cop-out. It might also make it very difficult for future writers who were planning on dealing with the consequences of what Adam did, rather than pretending it didn't happen.

One reason I stopped writing (and for the most part reading) fan fic is that after 20 years or so of writing it, I saw too many problems between the people who perhaps intend to be published authors someday, or others who take their craft very seriously, and the writers who are doing it for a lark, or to see if they can do it, or aren't that concerned about how their writing is perceived by others, so long as they like it. There's a lot of middle ground, there, too, a lot of different reasons why people write fan fic, or the degree of their passion about it.

It also depends on the reading audience; for some, there's little or no difference between a new story and a good story, just as long as they have something to read. OTOH, who is going to arbitrate what's good, or good enough, for a community writing project? In a situation like what shadowcrawler is suggesting, then the people who have already started the project would most likely make decisions, if I understand it correctly.

One good thing about fan fic, though, is people can write whatever they want, and others can read what they want and choose not to read what they don't. Some people are very much aware that they're writing for a reading audience as well as themselves, and others are writing purely for themselves, but may want to share what they've written with others. Often there's a bit of both. There's nothing to say someone can't write an alternate universe story, that takes place somewhere during Season 1, and things veer off from there in a very different direction. However, in writing as part of a group, it usually works out better if there are ground rules that everyone agrees to follow. That's usually where a lot of problems crop up.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from writing a third season, or whatever they want, just trying to point out some of the issues that come up. Sometimes it's nice to anticipate potential problems and find a solution before they arise. Another illustration might have to do with things like language or sexuality; if it's going to be kept within the bounds of what we saw on the show or would be likely to see on a network show on the family hour, then those limits should be kept in mind. Of course, there's also the time-honored tradition of writing one version of a story for a general audience, and having another version, with perhaps a scene or two added in, for one's own amusement or a different audience.

ETA: My friend suggested, entirely on her own, that if anyone wanted to do a virtual third season of JoA, she'd be happy to explain how they did things on the Pretender Virtual Season, and offer suggestions or advice. She's not a huge JoA fan, but she's been writing fan fic for 20-some years, too, and has done a lot of beta-reading and editing.

There's no reason there can't be different projects going on at the same time, all of which might be some variation of a 3rd season, so that way if a writer (or reader) doesn't like the rules, or the direction, of a particular "season" they can find another, or create their own. So in that regard everybody wins.

allyanndanes, I don't know if any of this has explained your question. Some people can be given a general outline, and are willing to write within that outline, incorporating their own, ideas, but if it's part of a group project, they may have to make modifications to their ideas. Very much the same way it's done when a writer is hired to work on a TV show, there are certain limits they have to keep in mind. At least in fan fic one doesn't have to be as concerned with budgets, sets, lighting, etc. Some writers don't like to write with anyone else because they want to stay true to exactly their vision of the show or the characters. It can be very hard to work within those limits, but it's not unlike writing a story and submitting it to a publisher. If they like it as is they'll publish it, but more likely than not they'll want changes made. The writer can choose to take the story elsewhere, or make the changes. It's the publisher who ultimately decides what they will publish; the self-published author has much more control, but possibly a smaller audience. There's also the matter of finances, can one afford to publish a story or book on one's own, or are you counting desperately on that check to pay the rent? That's one reason why, IMO, fan fic writers usually have a lot more freedom than people who are trying to be published professionally, because they're doing it for the love of it, because they want to, not because they have to pay the rent. Even professional authors have to adhere to a contract if their book or story is accepted, and produce "on demand" as far as deadline, word limit, sexual content, etc.

[Kimberly]

Hey Shari thanks for the insight from your friend

I for one would love to see a S3 fanfic series. I'm sure there will be lots but we have so many talented people here maybe you guys could work something out between you? Or we could just post links to everyone's vision and let the posters decide what they want to read.

*sigh* CBS does suck.. I have to be honest I haven't read a lot of JoA fanfic yet but I see a lot of it coming in my future since they left us with such a crappy ending the least they could of done is do a few more episodes grrr *shakes fist at CBS*

Anywoo I'm just venting now My point being if anyone needs me to read over the stories.. or needs any help just PM me! I'm a HP fanfic whore and I would love to get more into JoA fanfic

Hopefully that will make this blow a little easier to take. I'm still in shock about the season getting canceled.

[shrams]

Yep, when beloved shows are cancelled or end badly it's nice to be able to write out your own version of what should have happened. Or just toss ideas back and forth with other people to come up with something new and different. I used to love collaborating (with just one other person at a time) because we'd each come up with ideas, and each of us would get inspired by something the other said. We didn't have to agree on everything, but sometimes it helps to have someone else point out the difficulties of going in a particular direction. I remember when a friend and I were writing our own version of what should happen on our favorite soap, I was always having to come up with a logical reason for something she had written. She had good ideas, but didn't research them, so I'd have to try to put in something to fill in the blanks, like how a guy could go from being shot in the thigh in one scene, to actually running in the next. Little details like that. Once I had a character missing from an important scene, and when his colleagues wondered where he was, one said he was at home, repairing the wall, again, because he kept kicking holes in it. It was driving me nuts how many times she had him take his frustration out by kicking his living-room wall.

This is why it's nice to have a community effort, to have someone else point out the little details that some will notice and others won't.

[allyanndanes]

First of all, Shari (shrams) thank you so much for the explanation.
All you said was completely new for me. You help me to add something in my education.

It's obvilious that I can't be a writer (because of my lack of ability to write in English) but I would like to do something to help others to write virtual season 3 fanfictions. I just don't know what to do.


Who are interested to write a virtual season 3 ?


I'm wondering if we could put this request elsewhere like on JoA fan's site ?


shrams How many people do we need to achieve the same thing of "The Pretender virtual season" ?

[shrams]

I'll try to find out from my friend. I'll e-mail her tonight and see if she can send some basic info, guidelines, etc. She's very organized, so I'm sure she still has that stuff somewhere.

[allyanndanes]

Thank you Shari.

We have to find writers now !

[Indian Summer]

Sorry I haven't been around. What I was thinking of is creating the writing team, and then having in-depth brainstorming and outlining as to where we want it to go. I figured we'd set it up so we'd have a homebase- I was thinking something along the lines of a small, private forum or chatroom for the writers.

This way, if everyone has input, we could hopefully lessen the fallout and conflicts between the different ways people view the characters/storylines.

The other major thing I think we could use is beta editors and readers before it's made public.

(I'm in, obviously).

[shrams]

I'd be interested in doing some writing, and I've done a lot of editing and beta reading, so I'm up for that. Not sure I have the time to do both, but at this point it's hard to judge how much time & effort it will all take. I do think that sounds like a good way to go, Indian Summer. Brainstorming, kicking around ideas, filling in the details of a rough outline, all that can be tremendously fun and satisfying.

[allyanndanes]

Originally Posted by Indian Summer What I was thinking of is creating the writing team, and then having in-depth brainstorming and outlining as to where we want it to go.

I would like to join your team, may I ? I could be a facts checker or a first reader. In my job, I do a lot of editing and beta reading ( but in French ). Also, I've watched all JoA episodes and because of that I know pretty well what the show is about and the characters.

Originally Posted by shrams I'd be interested in doing some writing

I know how you're capable of because I read the spoilers thread on a regular basis. So, I think you can do really great fanfics.

Summer I like your story "Wings of Crimson".

shadowcrawler05 I like "Inferno". Any hope for an update soon ?

Originally Posted by shrams Brainstorming, kicking around ideas, filling in the details of a rough outline, all that can be tremendously fun and satisfying.

My fellow posters and I on the French thread like to speculate and analyse. I could bring to you our best ideas. We've speculated a lot about who is Ryan and try to find his motives. Yesterday, we've started again to talk about it. We are very dedicated fans maybe a little obsessed fans !

[shadowcrawler05]

shadowcrawler05 I like "Inferno". Any hope for an update soon ?

And there's the requisit monthly asking of that question. Heh. I'm sure you're not the only one that wonders that, as I am prone to not update that one regularly despite working on it all the time... The answer is I am in my graduating quarter and am spending most of my time working on my portfolio and demo reel at the moment, but as soon as I graduate (three weeks from thursday! woo!) you can expect an update in like...three days. So like...June 19-20? Probably. Glad you like it though, and that there's still interest despite the superlong waits between updates.

[Considering Disobedience]

I'm sure you're not the only one that wonders that,

Nope she's not because I've been wondering to. I LOVE that story!!

I'm also loving the idea of a virtual season 3 of JoA. Over on the Tru Calling board we take each episode of the virtual season and act as if it was the real deal and discuss it as an episode. Keeps us entertained. But we didn't have to worry about finding writers, another site came up with it so we just decided to go along with them.

[shadowcrawler05]

Nope she's not because I've been wondering to.

Three weeks and two days. I've been working on it during all of my free time this quarter which, unfortunately, has amounted to about 23 minutes in the last two months.

I don't think there will be any shortage of JoA virtual season 3's. At my last count, there were four different ones. I think the one I'm in is the smallest though. Four writers, a researcher, and a reader to tell us if the ideas are lame and also offer up non-biased suggestions to the writers for when they get too committed to writing their own ideas and not something that will flow along with the show.

[Indian Summer]

We should try to combine them or something, get a bigger group together. It's more likely to actually get completed that way, I think.

Anyone who wants to write can write, beta can beta, etc. As long as you actually have an interest, you're welcome. And if you feel your writing is a little weak or something, remember it will be going through betas and revisions as well. I'll set up a forum to discuss it this week.

[shrams]

Here are the guidelines I got from my friend Sara, who was an Exec Producer on the virtual series for The Pretender. These might seem too strict, but they make sense to me. Then again, I'm one of those people who takes writing fanfic as seriously as I would if I were writing for professional publication. Not everyone wants that kind of pressure, and it sounds like what IndianSummer is proposing will be more easygoing. FWIW, here's what she posted on her LJ:

Want to run a virtual series?

One of my friends told me that she knew some people who wanted to start a virtual series for Joan of Arcadia, now that CBS has officially canceled it. She knew I worked on a VS in the past, and offered to pass on any information or advice I’d care to give them. This is what I came up with, and I figured I might as well post it here, too, for whatever benefit people might get out of it.


Hi, everyone. My name is Sara (writing as Blue Cove), and for two years I was one of the executive producers on The Pretender Virtual Series. During our time, we produced two virtual seasons and 48 episodes, along with two subsequent "movies" and an epilogue.

It’s my understanding that some of you would like to put together a VS for Joan of Arcadia, and were looking for advice. As someone who’s been there, I’m willing to share mine. So, for what it's worth, here are my:

Ten Pieces of Virtual Series Advice


1. Take it seriously

The first thing you need to remember about a virtual series is that it’s not a casual, just-for-fun, whenever-I’m-not-busy project. It’s a job, just like your RL job, except you don’t get paid. As a group, you’ll be setting up a schedule (with deadlines) for writing, editing, and posting, which you need to stick to as closely as possible. Be prepared to devote many evening and weekend hours to this -- and if you can’t spare that kind of time, don’t volunteer.

In my experience, not taking the project seriously enough is the main cause of VS failure.

2. Choose your producer(s) carefully

I suppose that’s a bit disingenuous, since my friend Victoria and I volunteered (i.e. chose ourselves) for the job. We had no idea what we were getting into, but hopefully you’ll be smarter about it.

Being an "executive producer" is more than just a cool title. It means you’re in charge, that the buck stops with you. You’ll be responsible for the setup and structure of the "production company," and will be called on to create schedules, settle disputes, and light fires under those who might need it. It helps if you have some experience to back you up; for instance, I had 15+ years in fandom, and both Victoria and I were fanfic writers. (She had also been professionally published.) Not everyone will have those kinds of credentials, but unless you can project confidence and command respect among the group, you’re not going to get very far.

How many producers should there be? That’s debatable, although I’d say more than three is probably too many. The workload may be a bit much for one person, although it’s doable if they’re a take-charge type. For two or three producers, you must have good communication -- it's essential that you be able to get hold of each other when decisions have to be made, or have some type of agreement in advance. Luckily for Victoria and I, we were already good friends, and our policy was to always back each other up. We discussed things jointly whenever possible, but if one person had to make a decision, we trusted each other’s judgment. That’s the kind of thing you need when working together under such stressful circumstances.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention the perks which can also go along with the job. If you’re willing to do the work, don’t be afraid to ask for them. Victoria and I had a couple of these as part of our verbal agreement to take charge. First, it was agreed that we would choose the direction of each season and plot out the long-term story arcs. (More about this later.) Second, we reserved the right to write the season premieres and season finales ourselves. That’s as much work as it is perk, but since we’re writers anyway we enjoyed it.

3. Size matters

The size of your group will, to some extent, determine how successful you are. Too small, and you risk overloading everyone and having them quit; too large, and members of the group will start drifting away. There is no "optimum" number, but I’ve put together a list of those members you might want, based on our template:

a. One to three executive producers: this has already been discussed.

b. Approximately four to six writers: four is, I think, your lower limit if you want a full season; the upper limit can go a bit higher if necessary.

c. Two or three beta readers: this is so that, hopefully, more than one episode can be in beta at the same time. The best betas are also writers, because they can more easily spot something that isn’t working.

d. Story editor: a very important job, since this is the person through whom all the episodes pass before they are posted. The story editor makes sure that each episode follows any planned story arc(s), and doesn’t contradict anything already established.

e. Graphics person: if you want to have graphics to go along with your episodes (a nice touch), get someone who knows how to make good ones; ask for examples of their work first.

f. Web master: if you’ve got one, lavish him or her with praise; if not, start kissing up to people. Presentation counts for at least a third of the impression you make on readers; posting episodes on time brings that percentage up to half.

Of course, it’s possible to double-up on some of these jobs, as long as each person involved agrees to the extra work. For instance, Victoria and I both produced and wrote episodes; I was also the story editor; several of our writers were also beta-readers. It’s all about what makes you and your group comfortable. Find a balance, and stick to it.

4. Hire good people

And by hire, I do mean hire. A VS is not the place for "everyone gets a chance" or "just wanting to help is enough." Remember the old saying: garbage in, garbage out. The last thing you want is for your VS to be thought of as poorly conceived or written.

What Victoria and I did was to actually audition writers. We told those interested to submit a one-page sample of their writing, or point us toward something of theirs posted on the web. We then decided who would be able to handle an entire episode (or multiple episodes), and who wasn’t quite there yet. In general, if you haven’t written fanfic before, a VS isn’t the place to start. We needed people we knew could produce, and that’s what the audition process got us.

5. Stay on the same page

There’s only so much you can do in this direction, I know; conflicts will crop up no matter how happy a group you are. Sometimes, though, you can head them off by making sure everyone is more or less on the same page. I once saw a VS, which advertised the "diversity" of its writers, fall apart because they couldn’t bridge the divide between those who loved a certain character, and those who hated him.

Is disagreement a fatal flaw? Not necessarily; on our VS, there were those who shipped Jarod/Miss Parker, and those who emphatically didn’t. What we did was compromise: there could be shippy moments, but ultimately we would only hint at where they might end up, rather than spelling it out. Since our main focus was figuring out Jarod’s past and dealing with the Centre, that worked out pretty well.

Sometimes, though, as in the first case I mentioned, you might have to just lay down the law. If, for instance, you’ve got a potential writer who doesn’t think Joan should be the focus of the show, or who hates Adam with a passion, you may have to politely turn them away. They might be good writers, but they probably wouldn’t be right for your project.

6. Lock up the leaks

Spoilers are great when you’re a fan; when you’re the one producing the show, not so much. Feelings about spoilers vary, but I’ve found that with a project like this, once the floodgates open they never close. So, you need some form of spoiler control. For the Pretender VS, we decided to have everyone sign an oath in blood.

Just kidding. (Well, mostly.) Our solution was actually pretty simple: once we put together the company, we stopped accepting applications. Those already chosen were there for the entire season, period. This way, no one ever had to play catch-up; it also limited the number of people who had access to inside information.

The other thing we did was form a closed yahoo group (you could also use livejournal, or something similar). Only members of the production company were allowed to join, and it was there that ideas were debated and information was passed along. Nothing was held back, and no one outside the group was given access -- that way, everyone felt free to say what they thought, and contribute to the process.

7. Keep an eye on the big picture

All tv series use story arcs to a greater or lesser degree, and virtual series need to do the same. Arcs don’t have to be complicated, but they should provide direction; readers like a sense that you're going somewhere, that the season will end up in a different place from where it started. Preferably the producers should lay this out, right at the beginning; alternatively, some or all of the writers could do it.

What goes into a story arc? Think about what you want to happen during the season: answers to questions the aired version left dangling, new challenges for the characters, the leadup to a great cliffhanger. You don’t need to have all of the episodes nailed down yet -- this is just a broad idea of where you’re going, something that will guide you through the coming season.

After the long-term goals are set, that’s when you’ll need to break the arc down into pieces, things which need to be accomplished throughout the season. After the writers have pitched their story ideas, you’ll end up with three kinds of episodes: those written specifically to advance the arc, those which need tweaking because of it, and those which stand completely on their own.

Enforcement of the arc is primarily the Story Editor’s job, but hopefully each individual writer will be willing to make necessary changes and adjustments long before you reach that point.

8. Listen to your readers

Remember how angry you got when the writers/producers/network took your favorite show in the wrong direction, but no one paid attention to your protests? That’s the way those reading your VS will feel if you ignore them. Understand, I’m not advocating that you be their slaves, and take up their every suggestion. There is such a thing as artistic integrity, and for the most part the decisions you’ve made should stand. However, readers have one advantage you don’t: perspective. They’re not so close to the material that they can’t see mistakes, sometimes even before they're made.

True example: about halfway through the sixth (second virtual) season, we decided to pair Jarod up with another character, Faith. Most of the fans didn’t like it. Some were upset because J/MP was their OTP, but others had more specific reasons. One woman in particular spelled her reasoning out for me when I asked, and after some discussion Victoria and I decided she was right. So as not to be too abrupt about it, we let the romance progress on the surface -- until Faith died heroically in the finale, leaving the door open for MP. Only members of the company knew that we altered the last two episodes to achieve this. Looking back, I still think it was for the best, and I’m grateful to those who pointed out the problem.

9. Behave as though it’s real

Very few virtual series treat their product like a real television show. Instead, episodes are released every two or three weeks, or whenever they can get to it, and the eps themselves read like fanfic. That can be fun, but it doesn't give readers a "tv show still on the air" feeling, which is what you should be aiming for. It's the best way I know to get and keep a buzz going about your project.

How do you treat an internet-based series as though it's on tv? Here's what we did:

a. Break each episode into four acts. Even though you don’t have commercials, coming up with a "hook" at the end of each act (to prevent viewers from "changing the channel") preserves the feeling that you’re watching tv.

b. Don't do anything the series couldn't do. That means avoiding inappropriate language, and telling the kind of stories that would play well on television (lots of dialogue and action).

c. "Cast" the original characters. Since you’re not limited by a budget, pick an actor you like to play each of the original characters in the story. It helps readers to picture the scenes in their minds if they know what everyone looks like.

d. Set a regular schedule, and keep to it. Ours was ambitious: the season ran from September to April, with a new episode released every Saturday (the same day tP had aired). November, February, and May thru August were for "reruns," mainly so as not to compete with sweeps on network tv. Having a new episode ready every week for up to eight weeks at a time was difficult, but I'm proud to say that during two full seasons, we were only delayed a couple of times.

e. Preserve the first run, rerun feeling. When a new episode was posted, we kept it up for a week, then removed it. Episodes were not placed in the archive until they had run twice (i.e. rerun). This meant that if readers missed an episode's first run, they either waited for the rerun or asked someone to send them a copy. This is exactly what tv viewers have to do. It also kept people from wandering in and reading the episodes three or four at a time. Instead, they "tuned in" each week to see the latest installment, and had time to digest it before the next one appeared.

10. Give the fans a place to squee

One of the first things I did as producer was form a yahoo group (again, you could use livejournal or bulletin boards) specifically for fans. There, they could not only review episodes and ask questions, they also got a chance to interact directly with members of the company. (Spoilery questions about upcoming episodes, however, were politely refused.) As word of our posting policy spread, many also used it as a place to ask others for copies of missed episodes.


If you would like more info:

The Pretender Virtual Series website is still up. In addition to the episodes, you'll also find an FAQ, and a "Season Five Primer," posted at the beginning of Season Six as a reminder of what had gone before. You can access everything at:

http://www.fanficweb.net/tvs/pretender/

Also, the yahoo group I ran is still up. It's been closed to posting for some time, but you can join and read through the fun we had, back when the series was active:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/PretenderVS/

For a list of many virtual series -- some current, some complete, some partial -- try Phoenix Virtual Television:

http://www.pvtonline.com/


Opinions?