For You to Notice...

Welcome to the OTH discussion of the week! This place is for discussing questions posted in the title. If you have any suggestions, if there are any situations that happened on OTH you would want to talk about, post it here, and we'll get to it eventually. Enjoy!

Questions:

1. How long would Dan have been able keep the truth hidden of killing Keith if Lucas and Abby kept going after him? (07.06.2013 - 07.12.2013)
2. Do you think that if Haley hadn't go with Chris touring in season 2, things would have been different between Nathan & Haley? Would they still be together..? (07.13.2013 - 08.02.2013)
3. What storyline has ever related to you on a personal level? (08.03.2013 - 08.10.2013)
4. What's the worst storyline you ever went across? (08.11.2013 - 08.17.2013)
5. What storyline shaped a character most in the entire series? (08.18.2013 - 08.25.2013)
6. If Dan and Deb had more of a family upbringing for Nathan, do you think he would've married Haley in Season 1? (08.26.2013-09.18.2013)
7. If Keith would've lived after Dan shot him, how different would Lucas and Karen's lives would've turned out? (09.19.2013-10.12.2013)
8. What if Haley never went on tour with Chris Keller in Season 2, do you think she would have dived into music the way she did in later seasons? (10.13.2013-10.22.2013)
9. What if Keith was still alive, would Lucas still be around? (10.23.2013-10.30.2013)
10. Do you understand Jake's choice of leaving? (10.31.2013-11.06.2013)
11. What if Peyton knew she was adopted all along and knew about Ellie, how would that have changed her life? (11.07.2013-11.19.2013)
12. If Lucas took Dan down in Season 2 like he was planning, how would things have changed?(11.20.2013-12.10.2013)
13. Was it fair for Lucas to go with Keith to Charleston even though he had doubts? (12.11.2013)

For You to Notice...

Post away!

Personally, I don't think Dan would be able to keep this secret for a long time. Lucas was pretty adamant with finding a real proof that Dan killed Keith. He would chase Abby down, to everywhere she was, and convice her to tell the truth. She already wanted to say it, but her mother was stopping her.

fly me to the moon

^ Yeah, I agree, but I could say that he would get caught in few years later since it seems that he wants to start bonding w/ people that he resent to..

msstock87

I don't think Dan would have been able to keep the secret for too much longer. Lucas was making it his number one goal to get Dan caught and was taking extreme measures. I also think Dan's guilt was always going to be there as well and it would eventually get worse.

break the window

very true. Dan was seeing things and hearing Keith everywhere, Abby and Lucas didn't have any hand in that. Once Deb told Dan the truth about who really tried to kill him, the demons just wouldn't quit. He really felt every deep sorrow for killing his brother and why did he do it? It wasn't just because of the though he tried to kill him. Dan wanted Keith away from Karen and Lucas because he wanted a chance with his family. Dan realized he had no chances left and had to work really hard to get anywhere with Karen and Lucas. But there was Keith, always there being the father to Lucas and the partner to Karen like Dan always wanted.

Dan was always jealous of Keith, he even said it himself. Keith was the one true to himself, he didn't try to one up someone else or do things just to make his own ego look good. Keith was an honest man...

her mother was afraid of what might happen if Abby did tell the truth and Dan found out. She was scared and who could blame her? A teenage girl sees the mayor of the town shoot his own brother in cold blood on the day of a takedown by a student with a gun. Pretty traumatic stuff to deal with and on top of that, no where to hide if the truth ever came out.


I really wanted a reappearance from Abby like we got from Glenda and Marcus.

song_river

See, this is the type of tricky discussion that's going to get me in trouble, because I'm one of the few who was always a Dan fan from the beginning and was just too afraid to admit it because most of the fans hated him and if you said anything to defend him you'd get a ton of backlash from the fandom - most especially after he killed Keith.

I always did believe that Dan would feel a deep inherent grief for what he'd done to his brother. I'm not dismissing what he did or defending his actions, but I will say that I do believe that if Dan had known the truth (that Keith wasn't the one who tried to kill him) that he would not have shot him in cold blood the way he did. Lucas was hell bent on trying to find out who killed Keith and he would stop at nothing to bring that person to justice. In a lot of ways, I feel sorry for Dan.

What people don't realize is that there is a whole history of stuff between both him and Keith. Some resolved, but most unresolved. Keith was a good man and he didn't deserve to be killed that way and I'll never be okay with that. But, what I think that people need to try and understand, is that Keith made mistakes too. He knew that it was Deb that had tried to kill Dan and he helped her cover it up. He even had a gun his ownself and I do believe that he contemplated it, not that he actually would do it - but we can't really be so sure that he didn't at least think of doing it. Dan, is the one who took it a step farther than it ever should have gone and actually did it.

But, once Dan found out the truth, he was seriously sickened to the core of his being. He paid his debt to society and then when he came back, he tried to do everything he could to redeem himself. I feel like if Whitey could believe that there was good in Dan, then other's need to take another look at the character. He was such a brilliantly written, complicated and complex character so full of gray that I couldn't help but love him.

I don't know if this answered the question or not, but it's been so long since I've had the chance to discuss I thought I would.

break the window

I have to disagree Even though Dan's motive was to kill Keith for trying to kill him, yeah okay. But the way Dan played the emotions of Karen and Lucas after Keith's death and their sorrow is just unforgiveable. And to let an innocent, hurting kid take the fall for murdering Keith. There's no going back from that. How can I never forgive him for what he did, episode 9x11 proved a lot of clarity

not to start a war here, but how did he pay his debt to society...not really sure about that one.

holding my heart

Thanks for opening it

song_river

This is part of the reason why I never really did say much about liking Dan, because most fans I've come across who don't like Dan little to much at all, can't seem to see the other side of the story. I don't think that what Dan did was unforgivable as far as Karen and Lucas goes. When it comes to those two, he has always had to try harder and more than likely got nowhere at all, because Keith was always there and Dan never stood a chance. I'm not saying this is an excuse for Dan's actions, but what I am saying is that this is the way I see it.

I fully believe that people can change, if they want to change for the better. Despite all of the horrible things that Dan has done throughout the show, he also did some really great things as well - especially during his redemption storyline in the later seasons that most of the fans refuse to acknowledge. I still go back to what I said before, if Whitey can still see some good in Dan and believe it's there, then I don't see why other's can't either.

While Dan might have been playing on the feelings of Karen and Lucas at the time to keep what he'd done to Keith under wraps, I do still fully believe that his love for those two and his want and desire to be there for them no matter what, was always genuine from the beginning and most especially then. Dan was a tortured soul from the beginning and an even more tortured soul after what he'd done to Keith, especially after finding out that he wasn't the one who had initially tried to kill him. I find it extremely hard to dismiss the fact that everyone comes down so hard on Dan for the many things that he's done and the horrible mistakes he's made, but they refused to recognize that Keith made his mistakes as well and that his helping Deb to cover up the fact that she's the one who tried to kill Dan was about as bad or close to it as what Dan did. Not to start a war, but that's the way I feel towards that, on a more personal level.


(Note: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as argumentative or rude. I guess I just tend to get a little (a lot) defensive when it comes to Dan. I just feel like I understand him more so, on a deeper level than most. )

And as far as my comment about Dan paying his debt to society, well I was just talking about the fact that he spent his time that he was given in jail. He didn't skip town, he didn't run away, he actually turned himself in because he truly believed what he did was wrong and it was the right thing for him to do to serve his time. That's how he paid his debt to society.

break the window

going with that, if Lucas didn't know the truth, didn't know to seek out Abby about what really happened. Do you think he would've tried to let Dan in more as his father, because that's what was happening. He really wanted to make amends with Dan in Season 4 because Keith would've wanted Lucas to get to know his real father

song_river

I do believe that if Lucas had never been so bent on finding out the truth about who killed Keith and tracking down Abby, that he would have tried to make more of an effort to let Dan in and get to know him a little better. Keith would have wanted that for Lucas. I also think that Karen would have let Dan into her personal life a lot more, as well.

break the window

idk, I guess with knowing that Dan did it all along, seeing Lucas make an effort to see Dan as his father...would've been too much

song_river

I disagree with that, because I still believed that Dan very much deserved the chance that he never really got to be a father to Lucas, or at the very least be in his life somewhat in a trustful way. I mean, it's not like Dan was completely evil and irredeemable, because he was capable of doing some pretty great things while still making mistakes.

For You to Notice...

Dan made a lot of mistakes in his life, but Keith certainly was not a saint either. It was him who crossed the line, when he slept with Deb. Dan and Keith's relationship was bad already, but it was K/D night together that started all the madness with revenge. In some ways, I can't feel that bad for a man, who all his life lusted after his brother's girlfriend/ex-girlfriend, and then slept with his wife. Keith was a good man overall, but when it comes to him and Dan, he really made a lot of mistakes. (It's a little bit like with Lucas, a good man overall, but making a mistake after mistake with his love life. ) I believe Keith unconsciously started everything, their hostility to each other, when he fell for Karen in high school. I think it's very possible Dan noticed that.

Obvously, I can understand why Abby and her mother were so scared to tell anyone the truth about Dan. He was a mayor, the most important person in Tree Hill. However, Abby quitting school and acting like a she has a mental problems is a little bit too much. I don't think her mother was right in forcing Abby to not have a normal life, I certainly wouldn't want that for my kid. Though, I think Abby's mother planned it to be temporary if I remember correctly? Still, bit too much if you ask me. They always could go to the police in another town and then temporarily leave to another place, to family or whatever, if they were so scared. Dan was just a small town mayor, not a freaking president or something like that.

break the window

while I agree that Keith played second fiddle to Dan in a lot of ways in the relationships, I think that led him to a lot of jealousy. It looked like Keith had everything because he was a father to Lucas and a friend-then-almost-husband to Karen, and Dan noticed that. However Dan, being Dan, usually put people's weaknesses against them. Yes, you are right, both brothers had their fair share of guilt to pass around, but I think Dan realized after it was too late to change the life he was living. Keith knew the man he wanted to be, he just paved his path a bit different, but not without mistakes either.

for Abby, thinking back on it...her moving out of town, acting as though she had memory problems...she contributed to Dan going on this charade that Jimmy killed Keith, she let it go on. Abby wanted to fight, she wanted to tell everyone what Dan did and not let him get away with murder. But again, she was a young girl and listened to her mother about everything...who wouldn't if you saw the mayor shoot his own brother, who knew what he could be capable of I just think that if Abby really wanted to see Dan be found guilty, find someone to make him guilty...don't make him crazy and think that his life is haunted. To be honest...her leaving school and pretending to be crazy made her look guilty of something