rossfangirl86

I also see your point, but television at times does reflect what people do in real life. A lot of teenagers (and even adults heh) feel like they have to be in a relationship all the time. I know plenty of people like that. So while I understand the social aspect you're talking about, there's also that to consider. I was a sociology major in college so it's actually fascinating to compare what we see on screen with what's going on in our culture. We influence what's in the media just as much as it influences us. It's not really a stagnant thing. Shows are ultimately going to reflect the values/ideas a writer has, that's just the way it is. Tim Burton movies are a prime example of that. You can always tell its one of his movies because of the way it's written/directed. That appeals to some people and doesn't appeal to others. It's the same with shows like OTH, it has a certain target audience.

The show lacked in some ways but had a lot of heart in others which is why I liked it. I think it's funny that you talk about it promoting family values when they were all having premarital sex and jumping from one relationship to another (outside NH that is). I always saw it as a show about messed up people who were trying to find their way. And they might have talked about forever love but again that's not unusual for people in relationships. I had friends who thought they'd be with someone forever in high school. Not everyone is like that but it does happen. And OTH is just general teen angst, soapy kind of stuff. It was the Dawson's Creek of the new millennia.

You have good taste then Alexa.

Slayerette89

Nikki, you make a lot of good points. The relationship between media and culture is definitely a two-way street. And it is fascinating to analyze it. But that is precisely why I have issues with shows that promote 2.5 kids and white picket fence + fancy careers idea(l). However, I understand it stems from my personal hatred of (semi-reformed) traditional family and (seemingly soft and ethical) capitalism that the writers of those shows don’t necessarily share. At the end of the day, I can’t really fault anyone for promoting values they believe in through their stories. I’d do the same if I was a writer. And the stories I love, I love because the writers’ values resonate with me.

On an unrelated note, sociology seems like such an interesting field. I suppose it was a lot of fun to study it. Also, @ the Tim Burton reference. I used to love him. Haven't actually watched his stuff in ages though. And lol, I get what you mean with sex on this show. The fact they are ok with premarital sex and/or multiple partners doesn’t really bother me (though yeah, maybe it still doesn’t go well with traditional family values). But I’m not a big fan of hypersexualization in media in general, especially those centering on and aimed at teenagers. With oth I didn’t mind it so much because the cast was clearly in their twenties and not 16/17/whatever they were supposed to be in high school years.

Lol. I will never forget the first moment I thought the writers were serious. It was during that speech Nathan gave Haley towards the end of 2.01. Their scene started out nice and humorous, with Haley freaking out about them having different taste in music, but it became all serious and cheesy and I was literally @ the writers. I wouldn’t have had as much problem with the whole thing if, like you, I expected it to be presented as a mistake and end.

Were the majority of NH fans really that attached to their marriage? I was a Grace/Rich fan on Skins, but I cheered when they ended up not going through with their teen marriage idea at the end of s5. Though I guess it’s a different situation after the couple has already been married. Maybe NH fans thought divorce or marriage annulment would make NH less likely endgame and/or open door for them to date other people throughout most of the show before ending up together, which they might not have wanted.

rossfangirl86

It's so rare for that ideal to be part of television these days so I don't really mind it. Maybe it's because I value family and marriage. It's kind of nice to see broken people coming together and making it work. Maybe it's not realistic for everyone but television is typically wish-fulfillment.

Yeah, sociology was a fun major. And I only used Tim Burton as an example because it popped into my head. His work has a clear signature so I went with it. I find OTH to be in the middle of traditional values and modern ones. I think all the characters were settled in the end because that's what people typically want for characters they love (on shows like this at least). Most teen centered dramas revolve around relationships so it wasn't surprising that it happened on this show.

P.S. I think it's cool that we have different points of views on things but can still have a respectful and interesting conversation.

Anyway, what are some of your favorite Peyton/Haley scenes?

Slayerette89

Same here.


As for PH moments, some that come to mind at the moment:

-Their very first scene ever in 1.04, if I remember correctly. The one at Nathan’s party when Peyton warns Haley to be careful around Nathan because he’s a jerk.

-The entire 1.06. I think that episode on the whole is one of my general faves primarily due to PH. LN stuff is ok and core 5 being together for the first time is super important for the show itself, but I personally enjoy PH there more than anything else. (LP’s scene in that ep was great too, but that’s for another thread.)

-1.07 scene when Haley is almost a victim of Peyton’s horrible driving:
Haley: Whoa! Walking here.
Peyton: God! I’m-I’m sorry.
Haley: Like you weren’t aiming.
Peyton: You’re not on that list.
[…]
Peyton: Look, it’s not like you need my permission or anything, but if you like Nathan, it’s totally cool. Just be really careful.
Haley: (at same time) Be careful. Yes, I know. You told me.
Peyton: Okay.
Haley: You be careful, too.
Peyton: With which one [Lucas or Nathan]?
Haley: Driving. My mother likes it when I get home alive. Let’s go.
The banter is great.

- All the scenes they had in 1.09-1.11, getting to know each other, being there for each other. Especially love this line
Haley: Oh, thank you [for helping me with the drawings]! You’re the best. I take back everything I said about you before we met.

- Speaking of that period, I hate they cut out the sl with Haley taking Peyton to the orphanage to help her with the mini Peyton. If Peyton had to interact with children, this was so much better than the Peyton/Jenny stuff for me.

- The tense-ish scene in Haley’s room they had before they go to hospital to visit Lucas together. Peyton was rightfully uncertain about whether or not Haley is mad at her too about the cheating. Haley was polite enough, but also asked Peyton to go away until she could process her own feelings about the accident, which Peyton respected.

- Peyton being there for Haley while she was feeling bad about the fact she and Lucas fought right before his accident.

- The friendly scenes they had after the cleared the air about the cheating and the accident. The roof scene especially

- 2.05 in general.

- That cut scene of Haley checking up on Peyton after the locker incident.

- Haley confiding to Peyton about Chris and Nathan.

- The s3 ep when they make up.

- Early s4 scene with Haley approaching LP in front of school.

- Peyton drawing on Haley’s cast in 4.11

- 4.12 scene when Peyton comes to bring Haley to the Nathan, Skills and Mouth strip dance thing.

- Late s4 scenes in Peyton and Brooke’s apartment.

- Late s4 scenes in hospital. When they hold Lilly together (sort of). And when they + Nathan talk about Nathan’s future prospects.

- Everything in s5 and 6 when they work together. Lots of good Red Bedroom record scenes.

- That s6 bed scene with them and Mia that we recently mentioned on PH thread on Hil’s board, I think. It’s just perfection.

rossfangirl86

^ So, pretty much all their scenes? That would be my answer as well--especially their scenes in s1. That was such a great season in general and I love how they connected almost instantly. They really were kindred souls and I like that the show recognized that. I love how they could talk so openly and honestly with each other in that season. That's one reason I liked their friendship and was invested in it. I don't generally get invested in on-screen friendships in teen dramas but they were something special, for sure.

Alexa

I just think not every person needed to end in a couple. In the finale I think literally the only 2 not in a relationship were Chase/Chris. Everyone else was paired up and it was a bit cheesey for my own taste. I honestly would have loved if Brooke had not wanted to get married or have kids, I think that could have been a nice perspective to see. But like you said, its tv and Mark likes his happy endings so it didnt really bother me.

And selfishly I am glad I got happiness for Peyton in the end because it would have been hard to handle a more tragic ending.

I hate how normalized sex is in highschool on shows because me and most of my friends were not having sex. Maybe it was different for some people but not literally everyone person was and they tried to make it "Sexy" and its gross when you think about it. These actors are "supposed" to be under 18 and the writers are writing these sexy scenes, it kind of gives me the hebee jeebies in a way. I mean, I liked that Millicent was a virgin in her early 20s because some people are, but they made her seem so "rare" and I don't think that's always the case, I was that way. And I was really surprised they never had someone that was waiting til marriage.

I just think its nice to represent all kinds of people. Brooke having sex was fine as long as she was safe, but I didnt think they needed to have every character be that way personally.

Well considering Haley soon left Nathan and they had all those issues, I guess in a way it was shown to not have worked. I just would have preferred if they had split up for a bit, had a conversation about how they had made a mistake, they were too young to get married and should have waited, and then we could still have seen them be together in season 3, or even get back together later. But the message there was definitely lost IMO.

I think the fans just wanted to defend them a bit to the haters, but honestly if that were LP I would NOT have been happy. Couples getting married too soon is like death to me and my ships. And the fans still would have been there even if they had dated other people I guarantee so Im not sure why the writers never broke them up. I just think from a writing standpoint it made things very limited and in a way I feel a little bad for James and Joy who only had to work with one another for the majority of their time on the show. I know they got along, but still, it would be nice to switch things up a bit I bet.

Back to PH:

My fav scenes were definitely 106, the 114 scenes, the scenes from 205 for SUREEEEE. Also the season 2 stuff revolving Chris and at tric. 311 scenes after they made up. 411 scene, the 420 scenes, yes, the season 5 scenes with mia and also the end of season 6 especially the fan scene, and the "team peyton" scene.

They had cute scenes in the wedding episode too when Haley did the vow for them, that was cute.

rossfangirl86

^ You made some great points. All people are different and it'd be nice if television was more reflective of that. I feel like older shows were better with that than newer ones. On some shows it seems like all the characters think and act the same way. It's kind of strange.

Talking about PH scenes just reminds me of how great they are and how much I loved them back when the show was on. There were times I'd squee when they were in a scene together. LP are my OTP of the show but there were times where I wanted PH scenes more. Because they were so rare but always so special. The root beer float scene was one of my favorite scenes in late s4, in general. I could picture them having root beer floats together with the kids as they got older. I know Peyton wasn't around then but we can pretend it happened when they visited each other offscreen.

Slayerette89

What you two mentioned about the importance of differences among main characters in terms of worldviews, lifestyle, aspirations and even more superficial things like style is why I prefer early s1 to everything else on this show. It’s the stage of the show where I find characters least interchangeable. Growth is great, but growth on oth was imo often fitting everyone into more-or-less same mold. Mold which I didn't even like, so that made it even more difficult to stomach it. I’m also pro happy endings, but because my ideas of happy endings don’t match Mark’s, I couldn’t really fully appreciate them on this show.

About NH, in a way it makes sense to me if the writers wanted one stable couple (something like Charmed’s Piper/Leo) to balance the turbulence of BLP’s love lives. But I still wonder what it would have been like if Haley and Nathan got to date other people too and/or spend some time single.


Exactly. I have to admit I don’t enjoy their early s3 scenes though. I love mean Peyton, but not when she’s mean to Haley. But she had her reasons and it was balanced out in s5 when Haley was unsupportive of Peyton for awhile, so I’m good with that sl overall.

I like some other friendships on this show (Haley/Lucas, Peyton/Nathan; also minor ones like Peyton/Anna, Lucas/Skills, Chris/Nathan etc.), but PH is the one I was most invested in.

Yeah. I was very happy that Haley ended up performing the ceremony.

rossfangirl86

Yeah, I didn't enjoy any of their arguments, even if it's a part of friendship. It just felt unnatural for them to be at odds so I was always glad when moments like that were done and they were friends again.

stlavin95

Alexa

In my head canon Peyton and Lucas moved back to Tree Hill soon after season 9 (in fact i was a bit annoyed we didnt get a "phonecall" or a line from Haley saying they were coming back or something to that effect) and then in my head they were all very close and their kids were close etc.

I hated when they fought too because it wasnt just little tiffs, something about Haley always seemed so angry when she was mad at someone. I would hate to be on the end of Haley's wrath.

stlavin95

^ Yeah same here, I always thought LP would move back home one day, especially when Sawyer was around school age.

rossfangirl86

Head canon accepted. I just can't imagine that Peyton/Lucas/Haley/Nathan would ever lose touch. I know that does happen with families but Lucas was always close to NH. And I think Peyton would want Sawyer to be around family, something she never really had growing up. Lucas would definitely want Sawyer's aunt and uncle in her life, just like his uncle was in his.

You're right Alexa, when Haley was angry, it was kind of scary.

stlavin95

^ And Lucas and Nathan would their kids to grow up knowing each other since they didn't have that as an child either.

rossfangirl86

^ For sure.