valleygirlsyndrome

Well, yeah, Brooke chasing Lucas was a total lack of self-respect. She kind of wore him down to like her, until he realized he had a shot with Peyton. But, I'm saying like if you're the best friend, how do you not know what else is going on with Brooke? To wit, like Brooke was ignored all the time by her parents, and she was always looking for someone that would care for her, and to be fair to her, she did articulate that a couple of times throughout the first few episodes along with the wearing down. That she wanted someone "reliable for a change".

I don't know. To me, it always seemed like Peyton was focused on her own trauma all the time. Like Nathan was emotionally abused and gaslit by his parents all the time, and like the one time he wanted to be real with her, she wanted to make out with him, when they were dating, and didn't pay attention until he made that dumb comment about not noticing her walls were covered in art. Peyton and Nathan were a disaster, but, I don't think that was all Nathan's fault. Just like I don't think all of Brooke and Peyton was Brooke's fault. Peyton has a responsibility to her actions, too.

Lindsey, I wouldn't date a guy who has written a whole epic love story about some other girl, but I guess in Lindsey's eyes she fell in love and couldn't help herself, and technically Lucas wasn't with Peyton for a while then.

I think that in general the women were written so horribly and their plots were uneven, and that's why we tend to go in circles talking about them, because there's always a point to be made about one or the other.

BlondieLeigh

She had to get him drunk before he'd even look at her, iirc. If it was a man doing that, regardless of age, he'd be called a predator.

The fact that as her best friend, Peyton saw that as who Brooke was, kind of confirms that that's exactly who she was, tbh. Her trying to change doesn't change the knowledge of who she had always been.

I mean, Nathan was lowkey abusive to Peyton (as a response to Dan's actions), so I can see why she wouldn't want to have a chat about his feelings. I don't care for my abuser's feelings either.

The issue with BP, is that for everything Peyton did, Brooke usually went a step further and people pretended not to see it or acted like it was okay, especially in the fandom. She used the girl's dead mothers to bully her. There should have been no coming back from that. The fandom always held Peyton accountable, but always excused Brooke doing worse.

Overall, Lindsey as a character was pointless. Might as well be considered another Nanny Carrie in that respect. Michaela just deserved better.

They were written by an abuser, so it's hardly surprising.

stlavin95

Brooke did, that moment ages extremely poorly in this day and age. If the roles were reversed on that, you wouldn't have heard the end of it.

Nathan was, not to mention he repeatedly cheated on Peyton. Hard to blame her for not really caring about his feelings with all of that considered.

I think Lindsay and Lucas being in a relationship in the present day in S5 was pretty pointless, but you could have found a role for her outside of her being his girlfriend.

valleygirlsyndrome

Nathan was awful. But, I don't get why there's so much Brooke criticism, when what Nathan did was much worse. He did cheat on Peyton multiple times. He was a jerk boyfriend. And he was horrible to Lucas. He trashed Lucas' court. He did things far worse than hazing.

I was just saying that there were times when he tried to open up to her and she didn't care, but I see what you're saying Leigh.

I mean, let's be honest, none of those friendships nor the dynamics on the show were realistic. Nobody ever apologized. Nobody ever owned up to any of the crap they did. The characters changed slightly, over the years, but there was no accountability.

BlondieLeigh

Nathan grew. Brooke didn't until after the jump. Nathan was usually called out for his actions, Brooke rarely ever was. I think it says a lot that, iirc, Sophia doesn't even like HS Brooke.

Why should she care after how he had treated her? They hadn't even started building a friendship at that point.

Some of them were held accountable, just not often enough.

stlavin95

Nathan definitely had it's moments where he didn't call out for his actions.

Definitely not, which sucked

BlondieLeigh

He did, but he grew far sooner and didn't need calling out so much, thankfully.

stlavin95

That's definitely true

valleygirlsyndrome

I remember how Brooke was convinced Haley was pregnant, when they got married. That wasn't very nice.

You're right, that Nathan grew up faster and more "efficiently" than Brooke did.

It's a shame that the female characters weren't written with more depth.

I love them all. Yes, even Peyton. Peyton introduced me to all that cool music. And when I was a teenager, I used to scribble in my notebook, pretending to draw, hoping my Lucas would fall out of the sky.

Yeah, in real life, being moody and to yourself doesn't attract a lot of guys.

BlondieLeigh

Not really surprising the female characters never got more depth.

stlavin95

Definitely not

Not like the male characters did either though tbh

BlondieLeigh

Not really

stlavin95

Yep

BlondieLeigh

Messy.

stlavin95

No doubt about that