crazy4TheCalling

Although I agree that the viewers saw a side of Oliver that Marissa did not, Marissa should have seen reason to be suspicious of Oliver. First of all, he was in therapy so he's got some problems. I'm not saying thats bad cuz everyone had problems, but then he was busted for trying to buy drugs and she continued to spend time with him. Not to mention warnings from her boyfriend whom she should have trusted, and even when he broke into Oliver's confidental files, she should have asked herself, would Ryan really do something like this out of jealousy? I mean, if your boyfriend is going to extremes like Ryan was, then you should be able to get a clue that this goes beyound jealousy. And it was clear that Oliver was emotionally unstable, but Marissa ignored every warnging sign until it was too late. Then at the end he shows up with a gun and she's all shocked?? It didnt take a genius to realize that he had major problems. So I dont think its fair to say that Marissa had no reason to suspect Oliver of anything. She did, but she was naive and didnt think.

[ 03-13-2004: Message edited crazy4TheCalling ]

[ 03-14-2004: Message edited crazy4TheCalling ]

Kimba

Btw - can I just add, why is it that Marissa supposedly having a good heart makes her worthy of fandom? People wanna know why some of us hate her, I wanna know what's to like? Seriously, every person, minus Oliver, that's come across this show has had a good heart. Even Caleb's shown moments.

Why is the bar so low for Marissa? She's got a good heart. And? She's a drama magnet who apparently never learns from her mistakes, and is a horrible friend to Summer, and a horrible girlfriend (see lusting after Ryan with Luke, see disrespecting Ryan with Oliver), and she's a bitchy daughter.

What's TO like?

Kimba

CanonsAreWorthless

We're supposed to love Marissa because she is the Mary Sue and the writers love her and treat her like she's done nothing wrong. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] And if you buy into that, it's cool. I just don't. The Mary Sues always have nothing going for them. You'd think the writers would stop bothering. [img]smilies/puke.gif[/img]

freakygirl

there is nothing to love about Marissa until she get some SERIOUS therapy and stop screwing people's lives over.

i dont even know why i didnt want her shipped off to some mental institue in san diego in "the rescue"...

Goonieforever

Although I agree that Ryan did some stupid things that doesn't honestly make a difference to me concerning their relationship. I personally think Marissa has too many issues to work out with in herself at this moment and really should not pursue any relationship. She jumps from guy to guy (because I feel she has self esteem issues and needs male attention) when she really should be working on herself.
I just feel that Ryan and her are not a good match, I never saw that much between them emotionally or intellectually. It seemed as if it was all driven by sexual desire and I don't really mourn the loss of them as a couple because I never really saw an actual couple. Just my opinion.

Basically, I think this whole love triangle/square (if you count Luke) was written very poorly by the writers and Oliver was just a character who was brought in soley to break up Ryan and Marissa and then once it's acomplished they conviently send him packing. I thought it was a lame attempt at creating some tension when some creative thought and writing would have sufficed. Or maybe the writers could have stopped this problem before it started by not getting main characters together sooooo soon, anyways....once again this is just my opinion. Have a nice day! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Pillow Book

I'm not exactly sure what a Mary Sue is but I am taking it to mean pretty but nothing special/cardboard cut out. :shrugs: [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ok: I like Marissa because she is an interesting character - nothing phenomenal but she has done nothing that has particularly offended me, so why not like her? As I said before - she is an easy figure to attack perhaps because she is a 'billboard' girl of teen america. The marketable image that is held up as the norm and ideal but in reality isn't. As much as that can be annoying it doesn't mean I'll automatically take a dislike to her. I think that is what her character is trying to show. You can be perceived as an ideal but in fact everyone has problems they are trying to come to terms with.
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

CanonsAreWorthless

A Mary Sue is the female character who is loved by the writers. She can have any type of personality, but she is still easy to pick out. She is the member of the original love triangle of the show, and one more in later seasons or in the same season. (Ryan/Marissa/Luke, then Ryan/Marissa/Oliver [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). She is given the most importance by the writers; in Marissa's case it is forcing all the other characters, especially Summer and Ryan, to put up with all her crap and never call her on it. She is excused by the fans for what she did based on technicalities -- in fact, I think that's what this thread is about! She gets all the breaks, and is supposed to be the most likeable character, when often she is the least likeable. And the writers NEVER LET UP on trying to sell the bimbo as perfect! [img]smilies/puke.gif[/img]

This is what categorizies a Mary Sue. Marissa Cooper is not the only one, by a long shot. But on The O.C., she's it.

Pillow Book

Do you think she does have the most scenes though? In the early episodes definately but lately when she is in a scene, she is not necessarily the central character. I mean Summer, Seth, Ryan and Marissa all seem to be equal.

And just to play the devil's advocate [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] - don't all shows need a 'Mary Sue' - it is standard television formula. And just because she is one doesn't make her automatically unlikeable. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
And what is the name for the main guy? Why isn't there a tag for him? Surely Ryan is as much of a stereotype as Marissa is? Why is the main female always made a target?

[ 03-14-2004: Message edited Pillow Book ]

Kimba

But Ryan breaks the stereotype. He's different in his cookie cutterness. He's not just the outsider. He's allowed flaws that are acknowledged and addressed on the show. He's complex, and intriguing in that complexity. Same with Seth. He's the "sidekick" character, but not really, because he's already broken out of just being the funny sidekick.

Marissa is STILL cookie cutter. No depth. Nothing more than a pretty face and a "don't hate me because I think I'm beautiful" pouty mouth. She's parsely. Take her away, nobody notices.

Kimba

Pillow Book

See that is where I disagree. [Nothing new then [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]]

They are all pretty much stereotypes. Ryan is neglected, brooding, poor boy from a deprived family. Who everyone assumes to be bad because of his upbringing but is actually caring and nice. All he needs is the right environment to grow and be nurtured in. Now that is one overused plot device. It is seen again and again in films, tv shows, moral tales.

And Seth - nerdy guy who is actually pretty cool once you get to know him. Has dry witted humour, loaded with contemporary references and runs against the grain. Not exactly pushing the envelope out really.

And yeah - so what Marissa is another example of pretty girl, main love interest, with troubles underneath whilst seemingly together on the surface.

They are all variations of models needed and used again and again in teen drama. The show is not a serious reflection on society or something heavy and loaded with meaning. It is fun and snappy - very much surface entertainment. And yet it arouses all these vehement emotions [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

I just think the 'Mary Sue' character always takes the main brunt of the criticism however. The guy is always excused because he is an object of adoration - more than the girl because probably the main audience are teenage/young women.

CanonsAreWorthless

I think you're misunderstanding me, Pillow Book. The main female character of a show does not have to be a Mary Sue at all. How does one not become a Mary Sue? That's easy -- she evolves! Now, granted, it's only the first season, so it's hard to say whether Marissa will remain a Mary Sue (my dream is of course for her to be gradually written out, but I really don't see that happening [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) but so far, she hasn't grown at all! In fact, we have other characters going out of their way to NOT push her to grow -- Sandy giving her a PEP TALK on how to win Ryan back, or Summer telling Ryan what a great person Marissa is after how horrible Marissa has treated her since the start of the series. (And just to refer to one of your earlier points, so what if Summer only wanted him for sex? Did Marissa think Ryan belonged to her because she saw him first and threw herself at him in The Model Home? What would Marissa have done if Ryan and Anna had gotten together? Whine and bitch to Summer, most likely. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Classy.)

Who's the original main character who's NOT a Mary Sue? That's also easy -- Buffy! And that was the first decent show on the WB. Funny how the WB has deteriorated so much over time. And now, Fox is following in its footsteps. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

the laziest little sidekick

Is a Mary Sue really a Mary Sue if she has problems with substance abuse?

CanonsAreWorthless

Yes she is, if the writers don't truly address this problem. Marissa went to therapy in The Best Chrismakah Ever, and we didn't see her talking to her therapist, and like two episodes later, Miss High-and-Mighty was back, saying "My parents are the ones who need therapy, not me." Mark my words -- we'll never see her going back. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Pillow Book

I am going to hold off judgement. I see where you are coming from but let's just say we agree to disagree. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyone got anymore ideas for a discussion?

CanonsAreWorthless

How about, what pairings would you guys want if Ryan and Marissa don't work out? (Please please PLEASE [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

Ryan/Theresa or Ryan/Summer, and....um, Luke/Marissa? I despise Marissa but I agree with Cleveland, Seth and Marissa would be interesting because of how their families are intertwined.