MD9999

I love how, right before going to rehab, Kirsten hugs Seth and Ryan tells them both that she loves them. It's really heart wrenching and shows how she really sees Ryan as her son. Sometimes I actually think she gets along better with Ryan than with Seth

~Search4Truth~

I did think it was sweet that she said that, but I never really saw her getting along better with Ryan than Seth. I see her ignoring Ryan most of the time and I know she was mad and emotional so she gets a little slack for it, but she did say, "Oh don't you start. I let you into this house!" and she never really apologized to Ryan for that whereas it was clear that Seth is the only reason she decided to go to rehab and go sober, which she even admitted in S3 when she brought him to her AA meetings (something that she never even told Ryan about, although I'm sure Ryan would have liked to go).

And she does stuff for Seth on the show that she never does for Ryan (like bring him breakfast in bed once and go out to watch movies). With Ryan, she only occasionally gives advice and despite the fact that Ryan loves architecture and everything having to do with her career, she never is actually shown taking the time out to take him out on a tour of architectural buildings or to teach him stuff. She helped Ryan reconnect with his mom (Dawn). I think that was good of her to do, but I wouldn't say it makes her a good mom to him. I just saw her as a bit stand-offish with Ryan.

I think if she gets along better with Ryan sometimes, it may just be because Ryan is always helping around the house, which she respects (I recall a few scenes where Ryan is helping her with groceries voluntarily or helping her with the tree or voluntarily taking out the trash, etc.). Any mom would appreciate that from a kid because most kids are too caught up in their own little world to do that stuff without being asked.

Just my opinions though!

MD9999

That's true, and I think her angry comment to Ryan was pretty hurtful. Truth be told, I never bothered to watch season 3, so I didn't know about the AA stuff but it sounds very sweet. I guess all I mean is that I think that Kirsten has less of the Sandy/Seth humor thing so sometimes she seems more compatible with Ryan. IDK

~Search4Truth~

Oh, I didn't know you didn't watch S3. Do you ever want to?

I did think Kirsten taking Seth to her AA meetings was sweet, but I also felt it shows how much more she values Seth than Ryan, especially when she told Seth and everyone else at one of the meetings that she only became sober for him. That makes me feel that had Seth never found out about her problem, Ryan begging her to get help or even Sandy begging her to get help wouldn't have changed her mind.

Of course Seth is her biological son so it makes sense she would love him more, but to not even tell Ryan about it bugged me. The least I thought she could have done for Ryan is apologize for what she said to him at the intervention considering Ryan had to deal with one alcoholic mother already and her actions must have really let him down (although he's so stoic and won't show it). I don't fault her for what she said generally, but since she never actually apologized, I admit it bugged me a lot. Plus, she stayed close to Julie and never confronted her about some of the crap she put Ryan through (like framing him for attempted murder). If it had been Seth, I don't think she would have been so forgiving.

I do agree that Kirsten's personality is more similar to Ryan than Seth or Sandy.

I do think Ryan has a similar humor to Sandy though. I have always felt that Ryan is just as funny as Sandy and Seth, but just in a different kind of way. Ryan/Ben has this really subtle deadpan humor and some of the funniest facial expressions. He cracks me up.

I've rarely, if ever found Kirsten funny, but she's definitely more quiet and reserved like Ryan is. But I actually see Ryan and Sandy as having the most similar personalities on the show. They dress most similarly (if you don't believe me and I can post some caps where they had such similar outfits on ), they both are always trying to help/save everyone, and they both always try to do the right thing--even when it hurts or is helping their enemies, and they both come from a similar background (though I think Ryan's life was far worse).

So I actually always saw Seth and Kirsten as going together well, but that's just me.

Oh, and I wasn't trying to put down Kirsten so I hope nobody is offended by what I said.

MD9999

I plan on watching season 3 eventually....I just can;t motivate myself very much because I've heard it's really bad and I don't want to see Marissa die ( )

That's a very good point about Ryan and Sandy, they;re sort of similar. I couldn't say exactly how, but it's true.

~Search4Truth~

It's not that bad. The first 8 episodes are good. And there are good moments in the rest of the episodes after that, although a lot of that is tainted by very crappily written or boring moments. I also love The Dawn Patrol (it connects the dots to Ryan's relationship with his biological mom, Dawn, and the acting by Ben McKenzie & Daphne Ashbrook in it is just so good imo). The College Try was pretty good. Kirsten & Seth have some good moments in late S3 too. Ryan & Summer have A LOT of great moments in S3! My favorite is when they both get into college and jump into each others' arms with Ryan twirling her around.

S4 is great imo despite what some people say. And Ryan was so gorgeous in S4. Plus, he finally calls Sandy his dad. Plus, I love Taylor.

Kirsten & Ryan have some pretty good moments in S4. So do Kirsten & Sandy and also Kirsten & Seth and even Kirsten & Summer. Ryan & Summer have great moments in S4 too. And Ryan & Sandy do too and hang out a lot.

They are in more ways than one.

Cosmic Love

I don't think Kirsten disliked Ryan, I think she liked him, but she was a quite distant person as a whole. The thing that Seth was the only person making her actually go to rehab makes perfect sense to me. The mothers I have talked to about their kids, they all tell me the same, the love for the child you have carried in your womb for 9 months is the strongest love they have ever felt, and no matter what happened in their lives, this love has always been as strong. My mom actually watched The Dearly Beloved with me and when Kirsten finally gave in after Seth asked her to go to rehab, my mom said she could absolutely understand that Seth would be the only one to make Kirsten go.

I'm not saying that you can't love a foster child as much as your own, since everybody's different, but for some mothers the love for their "own" children is just too strong to be "replaced" by anyone else, you know?

I'm sorry I can't really express it as correctly as I would want to, but I hope everybody knows what I wanted to say

They do I have always loved their relationship, and imo, Kirsten got along much better with Seth than with Ryan too. I am such a fan of The Man of The Year episode, when Seth finds Kirsten in her bed, it's SO emotional
I don't know why, but this mother/son relationship has always been one of my favorites on the show, even if we got only few scenes with them.

~Search4Truth~

I think you explained it just fine, Steffi.

Exactly. And put yourself in that foster kid's shoes. These kids know that, and no matter how much kindness Kirsten or Sandy show Ryan, he knew they'd never love him like they do Seth and he knew he'd never truly experience that strong bond with a biological parent because his own parents had scarred him too much for him to ever completely get over it. This is why my heart goes out to Ryan or kids like him in real life. They want to fit in and belong to a family, but in essence, it's hard to without doubt and insecurities sweeping them under. A little voice in the back of his mind probably always made him feel like a charity case with no family. I know people like to defend the Cohens, and I love them to death, but they could have done more to help Ryan in my opinion. It's one thing to get material things. What he needed more of was the emotional, and while there were a few nice scenes between him and Sandy/Kirsten, I don't feel he ever really got what he needed emotionally until maybe S4 (and this is the fault of the writers, which is why in my fanfic, he does get what he needs emotionally from Sandy and later from Kirsten too).

Sandy did a good job with Ryan most of the time on the show, but even he slipped up many a time. Kids like Ryan need constant reinforcement to feel loved. If not, then he'll fall back into his old mind set. The mindset that he's all alone, raised himself, has no family, and is just a guest living with the Cohens. This is why he continuously doubts his place in their family throughout the show.

It definitely makes sense that he leaves after Marissa dies because he feels like a burden to them. For one, they weren't even his legal guardians anymore. Secondly, they hadn't exactly been the perfect parents to him imo in S3. He was afraid of being abandoned again (he blamed himself for Marissa's death and for screwing things up for them) and in his mind, he took off before they could abandon him. They didn't ever intend to abandon him, but he didn't know that, and as much as they did love him, they hadn't really given him much of a reason to feel that they would want him to stay after he turned 18. They occasionally said it, but words are meaningless to kids from that kind of background (where they're used to lies). Ryan needed to see it, and at times the Cohens did come up short in S3.

They didn't have to love him like Seth, but I do think they could have done more for him and again, I fault the writers for this.

Yes, they had a very nice relationship.

MD9999

I agree with you actually about not showing the Cohens deal with Ryan's emotional needs. It always seemed a little weird to me that we never got to hear more from Ryan about his situation (in season one he didn't even talk that much), and I would be curious to hear what he'd have to say about all this. That said, I like to think that the Cohens were more emotionally supportive, even if it was off screen.



Well you've sold me on season 3. I'll get the DVD and do a runthrough whenever I have a chance

NewOCFan

Reading this was just sad because that's exactly what I see in myself. Especially after last night.

Poor Ryan :'(

Cosmic Love

Thank you

I agree with you about the Cohens making a little too little effort showing Ryan that he was loved and welcome. Part of that was also that the parenting in general went to non-existent in S3 somehow. I think Sandy always put more effort into helping Ryan than Kirsten, but I also blame the writers for that. I believe it when Kirsten tells Ryan in The Gringos that she has two kids to worry about, not only one, because in general, I don't see her as the Ice Queen (as the title says) when it comes to her kids. Still, I get it why it seemed a little "unbelievable" when she said she loved Ryan as much as Seth. I do think that she strongly cared about Ryan though.

TC, you just made me fell SO sorry for Ryan Not that I didn't feel sorry for him before considering all this, but reading all of it summarized is very sad

"You'reMyLittleSnowAngel"

I've never seen Kirsten as the Ice Queen with her kids and I've never thought Sandy and Kirsten were bad parents to Ryan. If there's something we didn't see them say, then it hasn't really mattered to me because considering how they did act, I pretty much presumed they did say it but they didn't include it in an episode. I know Ryan had insecurities sometimes but we saw him be encouraged and welcomed.

~Search4Truth~

Guys, before you read this, please keep in mind that my intention is not to bash Kirsten or Sandy. I ADORE the Cohens +1. I adore the entire family: all four. But I think there were obvious deficiencies in the writing for the parenting on the show at times, which is why I've pointed out, and I do think it makes for an interesting discussion.

And at times I think the lack of parenting was actually intended by the writers.

Overall, Kirsten is not an Ice Queen with her kids and overall Sandy and Kirsten weren't bad parents to Ryan, but there were definite times on the show when they weren't ideal parents to either Seth or Ryan, and at times the writers even made a point in emphasizing that they weren't parenting.

For example, during the entire second half of S2, Kirsten didn't pay one bit of attention to her kids or anyone but herself for that matter when she was hanging out with Carter and turned to the bottle. I think this is why what Caleb said to her clearly hit a nerve.

Caleb: "Did you even think about your kids?"

Kirsten: "I AM A GOOD MOTHER!"

IMO people don't react as defensively and harshly as she did when they're being reprimanded unless they know they're actually in the wrong. Her reaction was a defense mechanism. She was projecting her disappointment with herself onto him.

And I'll bring up other times on the show I felt they weren't being good parents when I respond to some of Steffi's post.

I respectfully disagree. The writers made an effort to emphasize good parenting on the show in specific scenes, and likewise, they made an effort to emphasize poor parenting or lack of parenting.

If the writers didn't show the parenting, I presumed it wasn't happening--particularly in late S2 and S3 because the writers would make an effort to bring up the lack of parenting in some way (ie, Kirsten complaining about Sandy not being there for his kids; Caleb complaining to Kirsten about her not being a good parent; Seth complaining to Sandy about the lack of parenting; Ryan feeling left out or insecure, etc. etc.).

These things wouldn't be issues if they were always doing their job as parents imo.

He was welcomed and encouraged, but that is not realistically enough for a kid of his background imo, and I actually think the writers did a decent job of highlighting his insecurities even in S3. This shows the writers did actually understand this.

A kid with his background carries a lot of baggage and needs constant reinforcement. He held onto his insecurities because he wasn't continually encouraged or parented. I think the writers did this on purpose to show us how difficult it is for a kid of his background to adjust to living in a new family, and to show how even small demonstrations of inconsistency in parenting by the foster family can keep reinforcing these insecurities.

Also, keep in mind that Ryan was never actually adopted by the Cohens so this added to his insecurities. Sandy tells him on his birthday, "As of today, we are no longer your legal guardians, but you will always be part of this family." This indicates that they were no longer legally his foster parents and thus held no obligation to him. This is an instance where Sandy's warm words were probably not enough for a kid like Ryan... because how exactly is Ryan supposed to feel like a permanent member of the family when he's not legally adopted and they aren't his legal guardians and then they keep pushing to get Dawn back into his life? I wanted Dawn back in his life, but I'm not sure I like the way they went about it considering everything.

This is why he had every reason to ask Sandy in The Avengers, "The pool house is probably filled with boxes, right?" When he left after Marissa's death, I feel he "abandoned" them (thinking it was better for them and that he'd cause them less trouble that way) before they could abandon him. Again, I'd say it was a defense mechanism.

Yeah, the parenting in S3 was definitely non-existent for most of the season. Not even with Seth. I mean, imo really good parents ask to see their kid's acceptance letter! Most parents make sure they apply to more than one school. If the Cohens were more involved in Seth's life, they would have immediately known he was lying to them about college.

I remember when Sandy didn't go to the airport the day of Ryan and Seth's college tours. Even Kirsten complained that he should have been there.

I can sadly point out probably at least twenty scenes in S3 (and even the second half of S2) where Sandy or Kirsten didn't behave the way I'd expect them to as parents. I don't want to type that much though so I'll just point out a few.

To me Kirsten was actually more of a parent than Sandy was in S3, and I think part of that was intended by the writers because of the hospital storyline. That's why he had to admit in The Man of the Year episode that he wasn't being a good father or husband.

I remember when Ryan went to Sandy for advice in The Anger Management, and the minute Sandy got a phone call from work, he told Ryan he had to take off and he never asks Ryan again later in that episode if he still needs to talk. If this was S1, he would have made much more of an effort.

I remember this scene where Kirsten was talking to Ryan about Marissa on Valentine's Day at the party, and then right after Ryan leaves, Sandy shows up and asks what she and Ryan were talking about, and she says, "Well, you know. He has a lot on his mind." And Sandy IMMEDIATELY changes the subject and points to Matt and Mya and they start talking about that instead. I was so aggravated. And there were so many moments like that, which I can think of in S3.

I admit I also didn't like Kirsten's reaction to when Ryan told them, "I may not be an Atwood anymore, but I'm not a Cohen either."

She says, "So you're going to figure it out lost at sea?"

And Ryan says, "Lost at sea. Lost on land. What's the difference?"

I feel like she could have said something there to make him feel less lost and more like part of the family. Instead she didn't reinforce his place in the family. Again, I blame the writers though.

Another thing I remember is that when they find out that Seth "got in" to college, they immediately get really excited and hug him and then their reaction to Ryan getting into college is not as strong and Seth tells them to go hug him.

Another scene I can think of is when Seth shows Sandy and Kirsten his invitations for graduation, and the Cohens complain about the school only giving two invitations per student because they have more than two people to invite. Ryan was standing right there and he looked left out and he said, "Well you guys can always use my graduation invitations. I'd hate to see mine go to waste."

I admit that would have made me feel bad if I was in his position. REALLY bad. Then Kirsten asked, "Well isn't there someone in your family you can take?" And of course she suggested his mom. I think it's good she got him to reconnect with his mom, but how exactly does telling him that make him feel like part of the Cohen family?

I did like how she reminded him later that if Dawn doesn't show up, he'll still have one proud mother watching him graduate, but after the conversation earlier, I honestly don't think he felt like that--because in my opinions, the Cohens in S3 kept telling him the words (he's like their son; they love him), but their actions weren't showing him that completely. I'd be confused if in his position.

I wasn't sure if the writers were purposely doing these little things, but it some ways it felt like they were writing the parenting this way on purpose. I know tons of people who complained about the parenting in S3. Even Seth was neglected.

Me too. Ryan and Kirsten weren't written very many scenes, and at times they seemed awkward around one another. She seemed a bit standoffish at times around him. I think the closest she seemed to Ryan was the very end of S1 and the first half of S2. After that, it seemed standoffish again. Sometimes it seemed like she wasn't sure what to say or how to act around him.

I think it's the way their scenes were written.

I agree with this completely. I think she meant what she said in S4 in The Gringos, but I think at times Ryan struggled to believe it because for an emotionally torn up kid like he was due to years of abuse and neglect, he needs to see actions and while they did show him sometimes how much they loved him, there were times they kind of left him out.

But I definitely think she strongly cared for him.

Sorry, didn't mean to. I just always sympathize with kids who grew up like he did. It scars them for life.

NewOCFan

You know, I never noticed how bad the parenting was going on in season 3 until you mentioned all this. And I thought the whole Johnny dying, Marissa going rebel, Volchock ordeals were a lot for everyone in the show to go through. I mean I know all about how Season 3 is the most dramatic season out of the four, but I never realized just how much. I mean, especially for Ryan, even in his own home things weren't going too well.

You know, if my parents had taken Ryan in, and if they read what you said, they'd most likely feel pissed off thinking all they do for him is not enough for him to be happy. They do that thing with kids where because they provide for us, we should totally accept everything they throw at us, even if it's horrible.

~Search4Truth~

Oh, Zain! I'm going to hug you tightly!

The Cohens were a lot different in that they were understanding and realized their mistakes, which is why Ryan and the Cohens were able to grow closer in S4 despite their mistakes.