[majesdane]

Anyway what do I care at this point? I just go straight to my otp.

Ofc I feel the same, but imagine if your OTP was Spoby/Haleb. Yikes.

Lol. It's a good thing I am not overly attached to this show.

It's a good thing I stopped genuinely caring about this show years ago. As far as I'm concerned, the show ended with S3. Everything else has been nothing but a mess since then (even the ending to S3 was a mess). It still rustles my jimmies though when I see MK making it worse and worse all the time. Come on, MK, you had one job.

[majesdane]

DP again. hates me today.

[ale-la-pazza1]

Ofc I feel the same, but imagine if your OTP was Spoby/Haleb. Yikes.

That definitely would suck. I feel for the shippers.

[FAU]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) The entire point to the book series and this show is the loyalty and bond of friendship between the girls. When you kill that, many fans are going to have a problem.

Exactly, especially since that's what was keeping the show together thoughout all the ridiculous nonsense over the years and they still ruined that.

[majesdane]

Originally Posted by FAU (View Post) Exactly, especially since that's what was keeping the show together thoughout all the ridiculous nonsense over the years and they still ruined that.

Of course they ruined it. There was nothing else left to ruin.

[fox24]

I do casually like those ship so it does suck. I am glad not overly invested.

I am more disappointed she ruined the second A mystery. In the first two seasons I could go back and see how Mona did everything and in the books I can see how Ali, Mona, and Nick did everything.
After s3 I can't see how Cece did everything

[fox24]

sorry dp

[jediwands]

Originally Posted by FAU (View Post) Exactly, especially since that's what was keeping the show together thoughout all the ridiculous nonsense over the years and they still ruined that.

Right, it's the cornerstone and without it the show basically falls apart.

Sara Shepard has to be either laughing, pissed or a combination of both. She knows these characters and very well could be pissed at MK for pulling this sht.

[majesdane]

I am more disappointed she ruined the second A mystery. In the first two seasons I could go back and see how Mona did everything and in the books I can see how Ali, Mona, and Nick did everything. After s3 I can't see how Cece did everything

That's because it was impossible for CeCe to be A and it makes no sense. IA, that was the biggest f-up that MK did with the show. The show was never going to recover from that. But now she's just making it worse.

[BlondieLeigh]

The more I think about it, the more it astounds me that this show is even allowed to still be on the air. It's just so offensive to everyone. Letting it get away with something problematic once is one thing, but this is constant, and it may look like it's one issue at a time, but the whole show is underpinned by subtle racism, or are we meant to ignore that every POC is either evil, killed off, or both?

[AlwaysCB]

This just makes Caleb and Spencer look so bad

[majesdane]

Originally Posted by BlondieLeigh (View Post) The more I think about it, the more it astounds me that this show is even allowed to still be on the air. It's just so offensive to everyone. Letting it get away with something problematic once is one thing, but this is constant, and it may look like it's one issue at a time, but the whole show is underpinned by subtle racism, or are we meant to ignore that every POC is either evil, killed off, or both?

But Emily is a POC so it totally excuses everything.

[Whitney]

I actually wouldn't include Dawson's Creek in the GG/OTH/90210 category, because DC dealt with it realistically. I loved Joey and Pacey to pieces, and couldn't stand Dawson, but when PJ got together that WB tagline "her choice changed everything" was actually true. Pacey and Dawson's friendship never truly recovered. That was realistic. The entirety of S4 was spent with resentment and bitterness between them. Pacey chose his love for Joey over his love for Dawson (which was the right decision!), but he didn't get to have both. Until the very last season when they're off in college we constantly see how that decision whether Pacey and Joey were even together at that time affected the PD friendship. They also flash-forwarded even further than PLL, and it was STILL awkward in the future.

That is what pisses me off so much about this current Spaleb/Haleb situation. Marlene wanted to do Spaleb for momentary shock, but she didn't want to deal with the actual consequences of it. She didn't want to reap what she sowed so to speak. Instead, she decided to have Hanna engaged (like that would somehow make it okay) and even worse encourage Spencer to follow her feelings. It is not realistic, and it makes Spaleb cheap and futile. It doesn't matter that the writers want to pull a teen soap move, and act like Hanna would be fine with this and Spencer/Hanna as well as Hanna/Caleb will eventually be back like it never happened. The fans remember. I can't look at Haleb or Spencer/Hanna the same again, because Hanna as the character they've written her would not be okay with this. And I'm sorry, but this isn't Spencer either. Spencer's "shopped out of Melissa's cart" because of her issues with Melissa, and their complicated relationship not because she's a serial boyfriend stealer. Spencer has always been a huge supporter of Caleb and Hanna being together, and is someone who always understood who Caleb was to Hanna, because Spencer has the same complicated feelings in regards to Toby. So, nope, even the writers trying it with the get out of jail free card basically laying this all on Hanna's door - ie. Hanna's engaged! Hanna said it was okay! Hanna is probably even the bad guy in the Haleb break up which I still think is baby related - doesn't make this any less damaging for Spencer as a character or the Spencer/Hanna friendship. The great thing about best friends, especially ones you've known your whole life, is that you build this implicit trust and a wordless language. You don't have to say that your exes are off limits, because your bff knows. Spencer getting herself in a situation where she developed feelings for Caleb is a betrayal. Spencer then putting that on Hanna is even worse.

I keep seeing people say Hanna is engaged like that somehow makes it all okay. Hanna's engagement does cover Caleb to an extent; although I think they did him and Haleb a great disservice by not having him at least mention Hanna/talk to Hanna himself before going there with Spencer. He and Hanna have claimed to still be friends so he should have at least communicated with her (not asked permission). Hanna's engagement means nothing in regards to Spencer though. It isn't selfish for Hanna to not want to see her first love and extremely serious post high school ex-boyfriend with her best friend. Emotions are complicated. Even if Hanna was over Caleb (which we've seen she's not) it still doesn't mean Spencer being with him wouldn't affect her. Spencer's not stupid, and she knows Hanna better than most. She knows acting and even having feelings for Caleb is wrong which is why she didn't go there, and wasn't the one to tell Hanna. Yet, she selfishly grasped at Hanna's words when as her bff she absolutely knows that it really isn't okay. Not to explore those feelings or to have even developed them in the first place. And please no one say you can't help who you fall for. You can actually, and you do this by removing yourself from a situation when you see it developing. Spencer's had these feelings for a while, apparently since Spain. Instead of stepping back from Caleb she dived in further, has spent tons of time in DC with him, and had him set up for a job at her company. It's a disrespect, and it is a million times worse since the writers clearly aren't going to have Spaleb be a real thing. If Spencer did this for true love (ala Pacey) and ultimately chose Caleb over Hanna, and accepted the damage to her relationship with Hanna then that would be one thing. But the writers are using Spaleb to cause pointless couple drama/media headlines, and completely sweeping the biggest issue under the rug - Spencer and Hanna's friendship will never be the same.

(Not touching the Spoby issues, because honestly Spaleb doesn't apply to them, imo. Caleb/Toby's friendship for sure, but Spencer and Toby can only benefit from Spaleb since it looks like it will lead to Toby's jealousy and their feelings being revealed.)

Originally Posted by Innocence (View Post) Everyone getting their panties in a twist just makes Spaleb all the more fun. I doubt anyone thinks it'll last but it's an entertaining interlude in a show that's been a hot mess with boring as all hell couples for a long time now. Blah blah blah friendship, loyalty, core 4! Anyone who takes the show that seriously needs some hobbies. A lot of the tv writers/blogs were into it, too, because it's actually interesting after dealing with the world's worst cardboard policeman.

How very condescending of you. Panties in a twist? Come on. As for taking the show seriously, and needing hobbies... really? Because you're here posting as well. That's what these message boards are for. I don't need a hobby, because I have a demanding job and social life. Or I guess you could say watching shows like this, and having interesting debates on message boards is my hobby when I have the time. When I log off here I'm not going to sit around biting my nails over Spaleb/Haleb/Spanna. I am entertained on Tuesday nights, and probably actually enjoy the show more because I find talking about it in here fun. If you'd come in with a post pro-Spaleb and made any interesting debating points I would probably have responded in turn. Debating is fun. Shipping is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't begrudge anyone for how they watch this show or what they find enjoyable about it. I don't think you're wrong for shipping Spaleb and enjoying the drama. There are plenty of shows where I feel like this as well. I just didn't watch PLL for the couple drama (mostly because it's always sucked). I watched for the friendship and mystery with a side of cute romance. Guess my panties are in a twist because Spencer/Hanna are my favorite characters and my favorite relationship on the show, and Haleb is the only romance I ever felt fully invested in.

Oh, and who's the world's most cardboard policeman? I feel like this show has so many options to choose from with that one. I immediately thought you meant Lorenzo (?), but then remembered Toby was a cop for a while. Either way, at least we can agree on that point.

Originally Posted by Mayberry (View Post) I agree with you. If I had to watch two more seasons of the same four couples, I would scream. It's dull and Spaleb actually has a nice little bond. Look, I loved Dylan/Brenda, and Brenda as well, and I was devastated by Dylan/Kelly. But it's still talked about, and it's still one of the iconic TV triangles....from the 90s. Every TV show eventually does a triangle that gets folks screaming, especially a show going on six years. They're ending in two years so why not have some guts? Plus the five year jump opens up a lot of possibilities. I'll commend PLL for sticking to the core four during the whole long five years of high school, but five years later? It could get very stale. I'm sure they'll return to the BIG 4 but they might as well give us something new in the mean time.

I've got a few problems with this argument. First, PLL is not the same type of show as 90210/GG/Dawson's etc. Those shows central focus was always about the ships without any other huge plot theme. PLL is actually about the murder mystery aspect of A and the pretty little liars. So, I found it refreshing that they didn't make this show even more outlandish by pretending these girls would all still be best friends if they were screwing each other's boyfriends. As for mixing up couples, they have, a lot. This show is inundated with new love interests for the girls. They can never ever be single. It's annoying. And I hate to break it to you, but you're still stuck with the same old endgame couples, because Spaleb is clearly a dalliance leading back to Haleb/Spoby.

Which leads me to my second issue with your argument, this isn't actually a triangle. 90210 and Dawson's Creek spawned three of the most successful and iconic triangles to ever have been on TV. You're right, whether you loathed Dylan/Kelly, Kelly/Brandon or Pacey/Joey (or the flip sides), you talked about it. It got you heated. It still brings back those memories for us viewers years later. I'll always hate Kelly Taylor. But what made those triangles iconic is that they were actually triangles. The writers played all the beats of them, and let them have real lasting affects. Brenda had her own Parisian love affair, but she was rightfully allowed to be furious at Kelly, and feel betrayed. Brenda's actions didn't give Kelly a free pass. Dylan choosing Kelly changed the show forever. Brenda and Kelly could never truly mend their friendship, and remained jealous of one another for the rest of the time. They were all also written to have been in love. Kelly loved Dylan (gag) so her choosing him over her friendship with Brenda made some sort of sense. Spencer has a crush on Caleb, but is fully aware she's still hung up on Toby. It makes Spaleb even more of a slap in the face to Hanna, and this show trying to use them as a few eps of drama makes them less than a triangle and no where near iconic. The same can be said for the Dylan/Kelly/Brandon triangle. It played out. It had the beats. Dylan and Brandon's friendship never recovered. It's iconic, because it was epic. Because we got all the drama we wanted from it. Same with DC like I posted above.

Maybe what I hate most about Spaleb happening is that I feel like Marlene is trying to have her cake and eat it too. She wants the shock factor of them with the media talking about it, but she doesn't want the actual follow through. I feel cheated. If Spencer is going to hook up with Caleb then it should be dramatic with fireworks and real drama. Hanna should be allowed to have her "I hate you. Never talk to me again." moment ala Brenda Walsh. Her character is owed that, and so are the fans. Spaleb is too big of a leap to be a two episode plot point to cause jealousy in Hanna and Toby, and then moved on from. There should have been build up. We needed to see Toby/Caleb's friendship in action, and not just mentioned. We needed to see Caleb's side of things and much more from Spencer. Dylan/Kelly's affair affected all of their friends. I don't expect we will get much from Aria or Emily on this situation, and that sucks. There should be fights and drama, and things should be irrevocably changed. That is what makes a triangle iconic. It changes the fabric of the show, and the characters relationships with one another forever. Marlene isn't doing that though. She's acting like Caleb is just a random new love interest for Spencer that Hanna casually dated before. This is to ultimately protect the Spencer/Hanna friendship and the liars core 4 without having to actually deal with what's happened. And at the same time she's saying, but don't forget Haleb and Spoby are epic. They're endgame. Nothing has changed. I find it offensive and pointless to go there, but be too lazy to play it out. I'm not a fan of Spaleb, but I'd rather it be more fleshed out/taken more time than be used this way, and ultimately cheapen so many relationships in the process, and honestly the show as a whole.

[FAU]

Originally Posted by The Apt (View Post) Right, it's the cornerstone and without it the show basically falls apart. Sara Shepard has to be either laughing, pissed or a combination of both. She knows these characters and very well could be pissed at MK for pulling this sht.

Sara is just collecting royalties at this point, she already stopped caring a long time ago.

[Mayberry]

90210 was actually meant to be about teen issues according to Aaron Spelling. That's why you didn't see a lot of relationship drama in the first season, which tackled suicide, drinking, body image, etc. Spelling had to argue with the Fox producers quite a few times over that. They didn't even want Brenda/Dylan to have sex unless it taught a lesson. But he wanted to teach young people different lessons over the seasons, and the network didn't, so yes, sometimes shows start straying away in new directions over time. It was meant to be more in the vein of Party of Five, but then season 3 was so highly-rated that the relationship drama stuck and 90210 fed off it. That's why I commended PLL for not doing that for five years.

However, these girls are adults now. And I'm sorry but Hanna dumping Jordan for Caleb is expected, Aria dumping Liam for Ezra is expected, etc. Taking two halves of two popular couples is unexpected and it mixes things up. Even if they do go back to the original four couples, it's still the boldest thing they've done in about two years. I never thought MK would do that. I wasn't shocked by Mona or Cece; I pegged them both. She shocked me with Spaleb and I don't think it's a bad schock. To me, it's an interesting twist that all the girls must react to. Spaleb hooking up will be remembered. It may not be an iconic triangle but it's something that can't be undone. It's a real test of a friendship and I kinda like that it's nothing that A did. Now they can either rebuild it as two friends or let it be strained for awhile. A shouldn't cause every problem for four women anymore but that doesn't mean two of them can't be adult enough to get over it.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the four couples but I am trying to say that we need something new. What should change now that the girls are adults? I mean, how far do the books go? Are they 23 in those?