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Old 04-26-2013, 10:42 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizaSparrow (View Post)


Kelaine: I just think Hook is as complicated as Rumple, we just don't know his backstory. Rumple has done a lot of questionable things too. So I still feel like the paragraph about him is missing. I'm sure there need to be some reassurances too about him and his actions

ElizaSparrow, I understand. I know I'm not a fan of Hook's. But, I figure the people who like him see something I don't--just like I see something in other characters they don't. That's all good. It's part of what makes fandom fun. I don't know if you'll agree with this, but I figure people who like Hook see him as a swashbuckler like from an old pirate movie or maybe Wesley from Princess Bride. I completely accept that Wesley or one of those other characters can break several laws of physics or fir off a 17th century, musket loaded pistol and hit their target at a 100 yards when any one who actually used one of those guns would be rolling on the floor laughing at the idea. They're a fictional type that can do that. I realize what I see as relationship red flags they see as also fitting the type of character. Mostly, I really mean it when I say I'm good with that.

But, I've got a few hang-ups that come from being an oldest sister. There's a part of me that just has to say, "Please, tell me you wouldn't date someone like this in reall life."

Just accept that it's a neuroses, like a person who can't walk under a ladder.

And, I promise not to date any guys who have tortured people in the basement no matter how much they look like Robert Carlyle.

The reason I hesitate to go on about Rumple here is 1) I'm long winded at the best of times and I hesitate to deliberately wear out my welcome (and, trust me, that's what's going to happen), and 2) I doubt you'll find my answer satisfactory.

You have been warned.

I'm hiding this in spoiler tags because, hey, just because I have to take up space, doesn't mean I don't have some ethical boundaries.

Ahem, here goes on Rumple--

Spoiler:
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:51 AM
  #47
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God Regina really is desperate, the only way I can see her plan succeeding is if she makes Henry forget all about Emma and the Charmings, he will not thank her once it's all done. 'How can I possibly love someone who does such terrible things' that opinion will not change once he's in the Enchanted Forest.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:18 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelaine (View Post)
ElizaSparrow, I understand. I know I'm not a fan of Hook's. But, I figure the people who like him see something I don't--just like I see something in other characters they don't. That's all good. It's part of what makes fandom fun. I don't know if you'll agree with this, but I figure people who like Hook see him as a swashbuckler like from an old pirate movie or maybe Wesley from Princess Bride. I completely accept that Wesley or one of those other characters can break several laws of physics or fir off a 17th century, musket loaded pistol and hit their target at a 100 yards when any one who actually used one of those guns would be rolling on the floor laughing at the idea. They're a fictional type that can do that. I realize what I see as relationship red flags they see as also fitting the type of character. Mostly, I really mean it when I say I'm good with that.

But, I've got a few hang-ups that come from being an oldest sister. There's a part of me that just has to say, "Please, tell me you wouldn't date someone like this in reall life."

Just accept that it's a neuroses, like a person who can't walk under a ladder.

And, I promise not to date any guys who have tortured people in the basement no matter how much they look like Robert Carlyle.

The reason I hesitate to go on about Rumple here is 1) I'm long winded at the best of times and I hesitate to deliberately wear out my welcome (and, trust me, that's what's going to happen), and 2) I doubt you'll find my answer satisfactory.

You have been warned.

I'm hiding this in spoiler tags because, hey, just because I have to take up space, doesn't mean I don't have some ethical boundaries.

Ahem, here goes on Rumple--

Spoiler:
I love love love your analysis... I want to keep this in a folder somewhere so I can read it when I'm miffed at the show for doing something ooc or doesnt make sense..
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:10 AM
  #49
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If you truly think Gold is a sociopath, you've been watching a completely different show because there's not a single thing about his behavior and characterization that even remotely paints him as a sociopathic individual. I continually compare him to Severus Snape because that's exactly the kind of character he's been portrayed as. He's a flawed, selfish, unpleasant man, but he's not inherently morally bad.
Oh ok ty for telling me that I'm wrong and you're right? lmao...my opinion, it's not going to change. I'm a fan of his but it is pretty sociopathic to kill your sons mother. This is television though, but come on if you're going to bring literal mental terms, then I'm going to correctly relate to them on that point lol.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:12 AM
  #50
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First: Thanks for the interview!! I'll read it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)
ElizaSparrow I think all of us are biased even if we try not to be towards are favorite characters. We understand them, find sympathy, that's why we debate so hard..lol I dont always see what you and others see in Hook, or EQ fans see in Regina, just like you and others dont see what we see in Rumple. SO all of us are biased b/c we cant escape our views. I don't think Kelaine was saying that Rumple is someone you'd want to meet in RL but neither is Regian or Hook. All can be pretty nasty.

BUt thats why we have the show, we can love the flaws and darknes, etc and go back to our regular lives after,.. Of course I dont.. I sit here at work at rewatch Lacey.. none of my other downloads are working..
The problem is that I'm a Rumple fan too, as much as I'm a Hook fan And I have no problem agreeing when either of them have done something wrong. The problem is that I feel like sometimes (and I'm talking generally here, not about someone in particular ^^) people criticize rather easily Hook or Regina (and I'm not an ER) but don't want to see all the bad things Rumple/Gold has done or even keep doing right now and are completely fine with it, but the other two are "evils"/"horrible persons". I just find it either hypocritical, or maybe some persons are blinded by their love for Rumple and see only the good in him although he is doing really bad things from times to times as much as Hook or Regina (although, yes, Regina might beat all the records soon). That's just my point, it's not about Kelaine, it's just generally that when people start criticizing a character saying how bad he is, they have to realize that some other characters they love are also as bad, just not for the same reasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelaine (View Post)
ElizaSparrow, I understand. I know I'm not a fan of Hook's. But, I figure the people who like him see something I don't--just like I see something in other characters they don't. That's all good. It's part of what makes fandom fun. I don't know if you'll agree with this, but I figure people who like Hook see him as a swashbuckler like from an old pirate movie or maybe Wesley from Princess Bride. I completely accept that Wesley or one of those other characters can break several laws of physics or fir off a 17th century, musket loaded pistol and hit their target at a 100 yards when any one who actually used one of those guns would be rolling on the floor laughing at the idea. They're a fictional type that can do that. I realize what I see as relationship red flags they see as also fitting the type of character. Mostly, I really mean it when I say I'm good with that.

But, I've got a few hang-ups that come from being an oldest sister. There's a part of me that just has to say, "Please, tell me you wouldn't date someone like this in reall life."

Just accept that it's a neuroses, like a person who can't walk under a ladder.

And, I promise not to date any guys who have tortured people in the basement no matter how much they look like Robert Carlyle.

The reason I hesitate to go on about Rumple here is 1) I'm long winded at the best of times and I hesitate to deliberately wear out my welcome (and, trust me, that's what's going to happen), and 2) I doubt you'll find my answer satisfactory.

You have been warned.

I'm hiding this in spoiler tags because, hey, just because I have to take up space, doesn't mean I don't have some ethical boundaries.

Ahem, here goes on Rumple--

Spoiler:
The thing, for me (I don't know the Princess bride so I can't argue about that ) is that OUAT is a show about fairytales and magic and nothing goes by "physical laws", how can it be the case in a show where there's magic everywhere, where tasers can kill wooden creatures? I think that Hook is just a talented gunman and he knew exactly where to shoot to not kill Belle and make her fall behind the line. It even happens in those FBI/detective shows that they just shoot someone without the intention of killing them and don't kill them although by the law of physics it was impossible You know it's not possible (in real life) but you watch the show for the fun of it, not because it should be perfectly done so you would be sure that no matter what the character would have shot with the perfect angle.
Some movies work on this details and that's what makes them perfect, but TV shows don't, there wouldn't be enough time for it anyway
So if the show (canon) tells you that a character didn't intend to kill someone/knew what he was doing or that a taser can kill wooden men then you have to go with it, eventhough it might be stupid

I'm an older sister too and honestly I feel that way about Neal, I wish that my sister wouldn't go back with someone like him in real life. But this is a show, it's not real life so I get that what works in OUAT, wouldn't work out in real life

About Rumple:
Spoiler:
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:56 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizaSparrow (View Post)
That's just my point, it's not about Kelaine, it's just generally that when people start criticizing a character saying how bad he is, they have to realize that some other characters they love are also as bad, just not for the same reasons
I tend to agree, but I think what might be even harder for some to ignore and just move on from is the tendenacy this thread sometimes has to present personal opinions as facts. I admit that's part of the reason why I'm a bit hesitant to join certain discussion every once in a while.

I don't want to start pointing fingers at individual posters because that's really not what it's about and I think we're all aware that at the end of the day as fans most of us are slightly biased in one way or another, but in my opinion maybe the general atmosphere could be improved a little if we all tried not to insist on some of the arguments we want to make to the point of presenting them as or attempting to turn them into facts that can't or shouldn't be argued. Again, just my two cents and I'm in no way singling out certain fangroups or posters. I just think maybe this is something we could all keep in mind, even and maybe especially if things get passionate and heated around here again.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:23 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Koda (View Post)
I tend to agree, but I think what might be even harder for some to ignore and just move on from is the tendenacy this thread sometimes has to present personal opinions as facts. I admit that's part of the reason why I'm a bit hesitant to join certain discussion every once in a while.

I don't want to start pointing fingers at individual posters because that's really not what it's about and I think we're all aware that at the end of the day as fans most of us are slightly biased in one way or another, but in my opinion maybe the general atmosphere could be improved a little if we all tried not to insist on some of the arguments we want to make to the point of presenting them as or attempting to turn them into facts that can't or shouldn't be argued. Again, just my two cents and I'm in no way singling out certain fangroups or posters. I just think maybe this is something we could all keep in mind, even and maybe especially if things get passionate and heated around here again.
You can point your finger at me. I hate to admit that I have posted in the past pretty angrily about Hook. I'm trying to not be so rotten about that.

I am pretty biased about Rumplestiltskin. I see a man that was tricked by the seer and Zoso into doing what he did. I see a tragic life become even more so, it doesn't excuse things he has done, done but gives him room for redemption.
I will see what the back story of Hook brings to me. Maybe I will see something better in him him.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:53 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizaSparrow (View Post)
First: Thanks for the interview!! I'll read it


The problem is that I'm a Rumple fan too, as much as I'm a Hook fan And I have no problem agreeing when either of them have done something wrong. The problem is that I feel like sometimes (and I'm talking generally here, not about someone in particular ^^) people criticize rather easily Hook or Regina (and I'm not an ER) but don't want to see all the bad things Rumple/Gold has done or even keep doing right now and are completely fine with it, but the other two are "evils"/"horrible persons". I just find it either hypocritical, or maybe some persons are blinded by their love for Rumple and see only the good in him although he is doing really bad things from times to times as much as Hook or Regina (although, yes, Regina might beat all the records soon). That's just my point, it's not about Kelaine, it's just generally that when people start criticizing a character saying how bad he is, they have to realize that some other characters they love are also as bad, just not for the same reasons
To be honest, my main complaint about Regina this year is that I feel like the writers have been jerking us around. Last year, I felt like she was presented as a villain with some depth. She was evil but had gotten there by a complex route.

This year, when I talk about the things I don't like with her, I start using phrases like "the writers decided" or "the people behind the show decided." What irritates me isn't so much whether she's good or bad or redeemable or not, it's that I feel she'll be whichever of those they decide works for the story this week.

At this point, I feel like a lot of Regina is plot driven. The only real character justifications I can give that work for me don't sound good for her as a character.

I had begun to buy her redemtion arc. Yes, I do buy her trying to change to keep Henry's affection and I could buy Charming trusting her, as far as Henry went, and even needing to rely on her to help his grandson. I could buy her reverting under her mother's influence, especially when she thought she could get what she wanted without losing Henry.

I have some complaints about her being upset when people don't rush to accept her reform. I think the writers (see? I'm jumping off character motivation and onto plot purpose, and that's rarely good) thought it would make Regina more sympathetic, but it backfired for me. Retrospectively, I feel like the writers were telling me "Quick, feel sorry for her!" so that I would be more sympathetic when she fell prey to Cora (and "fell prey" is the right term, Cora was bringing her down like a wolf after a rabbit).

Instead, I feel like they were telling me what to feel because they didn't have time to get there by another route.

And, I feel like the way it ended--and Regina being tricked into destroying her mother through what she thought was a way to finally get her mother's love is just horrible--was there way of telling me not to think too much about what Regina did or stood by and watched while with Cora.

Now, I feel like I'm supposed to be horrified that Regina will want to kill everyone to keep Henry (never mind the logic holes in that). Then, I'm supposed to feel sorry for her because this will get her captured and tortured by bad guys! Oh, no! Then, I'll be expected to be sympathetic as she joins forces with our heroes. Again.

I can describe a Regina who acts this way and thinks her loyalties of the week should be taken at 100% face value--but it's not a character with much talent for logic or introspection.

Quote:
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]The thing, for me (I don't know the Princess bride so I can't argue about that ) is that OUAT is a show about fairytales and magic and nothing goes by "physical laws", how can it be the case in a show where there's magic everywhere, where tasers can kill wooden creatures? I think that Hook is just a talented gunman and he knew exactly where to shoot to not kill Belle and make her fall behind the line. It even happens in those FBI/detective shows that they just shoot someone without the intention of killing them and don't kill them although by the law of physics it was impossible You know it's not possible (in real life) but you watch the show for the fun of it, not because it should be perfectly done so you would be sure that no matter what the character would have shot with the perfect angle.

Some movies work on this details and that's what makes them perfect, but TV shows don't, there wouldn't be enough time for it anyway
So if the show (canon) tells you that a character didn't intend to kill someone/knew what he was doing or that a taser can kill wooden men then you have to go with it, eventhough it might be stupid
That taser was bothering me no end, till I read hints that it's not a normal taser. I figure August was injured by something that drained/interfered with magic, so I'm good with that.

Different things will sometimes irritate me in a show. I think part of what got me with Hook is that we'd had Belle shot at the end of the last episode. We'd been through a lot of emotions and events because of it--and then we had Hook saying he hadn't meant to kill her.

For me, that didn't cut it. First, the story had been bringing out a lot of strong emotions building on the premise that, oh, he meant it all right. Second, his say so wasn't anywhere near strong enough to counter that. If I accept it, I accept it under the heading of "the writers want me to just accept this and didn't want to take the time to convince me."

If they'd just established Hook as having fantastic aim--not with guns, it could be something else--before this, it might not irritate me as much. But, here I am consciously stepping away from the characters and looking at it as story construction--which is generally a hint that it's not working for me.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:55 AM
  #54
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I'll be the first to admit that while I love Rumple, he's not entirely innocent. He does seem to have kind of a god complex. All the people he manipulated in FTL were just pieces on a chessboard to him. The curse ripped whole families from their homes. I don't think he ever considered just how many people had to suffer just so he could find Baelfire.

But at the same time he is an intriguing character, because despite everything he's done, his main motivation is the love he has for his son, and now also for Belle.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ღMitra (View Post)
Oh ok ty for telling me that I'm wrong and you're right? lmao...my opinion, it's not going to change. I'm a fan of his but it is pretty sociopathic to kill your sons mother. This is television though, but come on if you're going to bring literal mental terms, then I'm going to correctly relate to them on that point lol.
I did look up the definition of sociopathy, and, as myself and others have said, Rumple doesn't fit that definition in any way.

You have the right to hold a wrong opinion if you want, but it's still wrong.

Killing someone doesn't make you a sociopath, BTW.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:42 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DigificWriter (View Post)
I did look up the definition of sociopathy, and, as myself and others have said, Rumple doesn't fit that definition in any way.

You have the right to hold a wrong opinion if you want, but it's still wrong.

Killing someone doesn't make you a sociopath, BTW.
I have to agree. He killed Milah in the heat of the moment. It wasn't a premeditated act. He was hurt of her abandonment of their young son, and hurt that she was being vicious to him yet again. It was an act of passion, still wrong, but not sociopathic or premeditated.

I imagine if she wasn't being the abusive cold hearted shrew that she was and acted concerned about their son and asked about him things would have ended differently.not that I'm blaming her for what happened, that would be like blaming Belle for being shot by Hook and losing her memories. You cannot blame the innocent for what happens to them, even if you know why the antagonist did what they did.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:35 PM
  #57
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U know I forgot Regina can't go back to the Enchanted Forest did she forget she was marked by Rumplestiltskin for a Rafe, just because they got rid of that Rafe doesn't mean she still isn't marked cause remember the mark on Regina's hand didn't appear until the Rafe showed up in Storybrooke and if shows up in the Enchanted Forest there's a good chance the mark will appear again.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:01 PM
  #58
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U know I forgot Regina can't go back to the Enchanted Forest did she forget she was marked by Rumplestiltskin for a Rafe, just because they got rid of that Rafe doesn't mean she still isn't marked cause remember the mark on Regina's hand didn't appear until the Rafe showed up in Storybrooke and if shows up in the Enchanted Forest there's a good chance the mark will appear again.
That's a good point. Regina could use the beans to go anywhere, though, not necessarily the Enchanted Forest. She could potentially take Henry and go where no one could follow them.

I've been wondering if Bae might be marked for the wraith, too. That would be a big price Rumple would have to pay for his antics, should they open a portal to the EF and it blows back into the Land Without Magic through the portal. That thing has probably been trying to find a way here since Rumple marked Regina. E&A described it like a Terminator. It will not stop until it has completed it's mission.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:20 PM
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Oh ok ty for telling me that I'm wrong and you're right? lmao...my opinion, it's not going to change. I'm a fan of his but it is pretty sociopathic to kill your sons mother. This is television though, but come on if you're going to bring literal mental terms, then I'm going to correctly relate to them on that point lol.
Just to say, Mitra, you're probably thinking of sociopath as a casual or slang term rather than a technical one. Like schizophrenia, which is sometimes used (incorrectly) to describe a split personality or conditions that are more like mood swings or manic depression. Used medically, it refers to a certain kind of mental illness with completely different symptoms.

A true sociopath, for example (according to the book The Sociopath Next Door) doesn't look for love in a romantic relationship and doesn't value a spouse or lover except in terms of a possession or a thing to be used.

They also don't feel remorse and lack long term planning abilities. One sociopath--nonhomicidal--when facing criminal charges for fraud and embezzlement, managed to rustle up a pro bono defense team. He had them convinced he was the innocent fall guy, blaming everything on his wife. Then, he stole his lawyers credit cards.

Whatever you can say about Rumple--I'd certainly say he can feel remorse but I won't argue it here--he plans better than that.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:33 PM
  #60
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Quote:
They also don't feel remorse and lack long term planning abilities.
While the former is true in most cases, I do think many sociopaths can mimic a kind of remorse, that ultimately ties back into their own narcissism in some ways, so I think that's hard to call. I believe Rumple's remorse is genuine over his son, whereas I don't think Regina has yet shown any real remorse for her crimes- I think what can look like remorse where Henry is concerned is still mostly rooted in her obsessive need to be loved above all else. But other viewers may not buy his remorse as genuine, while others still may think Regina IS being genuine, so it's hard to say.

That latter one, from what I understand, is a little more complicated- virtually no one fits every single quota of a psychological condition. For example, there are about 14 common signs that a child has been abused- but children rarely fit every one of them, it's usually considered likely they've been abused if they have even half of them. Too many sociopaths go completely unchecked and uncaught for none of them to be able to have long-term planning skills (also, it's often marked as long-term REALISTIC planning, which doesn't even apply to this situation, lol).

Basically, I don't think there's enough of a psychological consensus on the precise definition of a sociopath, nor is there enough consensus on Rumple's true nature according to any given viewer, to state with authority that someone is wrong for considering him as much. It's my personal opinion that Regina fits the bill much more closely than Rumple does, but others may disagree with that.
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