[lancer1993]

Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post) How is Anna different in 7.09 than Lorelai was at 18? Anna insisted on making ALL the decisions about where April lived--so did Lorelai. Anna is taking April away from Luke and unwilling to promise he'll ever see her again--Lorelai took Rory away from E & R and was unwilling to let them see Rory (she declined an invite to their first Christmas party). Anna deprived Luke of seeing April growing up--Lorelai deprived E & R of that (remember Emily had to get pics from Mia). Anna says she wants Luke to be involved in April's life, but when push comes to shove Anna's control comes first. Lorelai says she "left the door open" but Christmas with Chris & Sherry seemed to test that. The door to E & R was slammed shut. Anna never reached out to April's father, Lorelai never reached out to Rory's father until Rory's "coming out." (One request for child support and Rory doesn't grow up in a potting shed.) The Anna of 7.09 isn't all that different from young Lorelai: neither one cedes ANY control of THEIR kid to said kid's father. Contact is on THEIR terms. Until first Emily, and now Luke changes the terms.

Maybe Luke at 40 has the balls that Chris (or any guy) at 17 didn't?

He wants to be a part of her life, he was with here 24/7 for 2 months, it's not like he just found out and has had no contact in the last year.

[Fridaynightdinner]

Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post) How is Anna different in 7.09 than Lorelai was at 18? Anna insisted on making ALL the decisions about where April lived--so did Lorelai. Anna is taking April away from Luke and unwilling to promise he'll ever see her again--Lorelai took Rory away from E & R and was unwilling to let them see Rory (she declined an invite to their first Christmas party). Anna deprived Luke of seeing April growing up--Lorelai deprived E & R of that (remember Emily had to get pics from Mia). Anna says she wants Luke to be involved in April's life, but when push comes to shove Anna's control comes first. Lorelai says she "left the door open" but Christmas with Chris & Sherry seemed to test that. The door to E & R was slammed shut. Anna never reached out to April's father, Lorelai never reached out to Rory's father until Rory's "coming out." (One request for child support and Rory doesn't grow up in a potting shed.) The Anna of 7.09 isn't all that different from young Lorelai: neither one cedes ANY control of THEIR kid to said kid's father. Contact is on THEIR terms. Until first Emily, and now Luke changes the terms.

The background make the difference.


The difference here is that Rory's father knows about his child, he could reached out by hisself. He never did, he choosed to stay away.
Luke on the other hand would have been there for his kid if he had known that he had one, even when he was not married to his kids mother.

And E/R have had contact to Lorelai and Rory, remember when Lorelai went to her parents for the money for Chilton:What E/R said is it easter/chrismas already.
Or Rory's birthday party, they never was in the house but they are visiting L/R at the IDI. Not much contact but contact.

That Emily change the thermes was ok, that was a first step.
That Luke change the thermes is even better, he never had a chance for this because he had no knowlege about his dauther.

[Captain Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by lancer1993 (View Post) RATINGS - ep 7.09 - thanks to OyPoodles at TWoP Tuesday 11/28/06 - Topic Powered by eve community The absence of Dancing With the Stars is proving beneficial for CBS’ underrated NCIS with 17.91 million viewers (#1) and a 4.1/11 among adults 18-49 (#2) from 8-9 p.m. Second was ABC’s aforementioned repeat of A Charlie Brown Christmas, followed by NBC’s Friday Night Lights (Viewers: #3, 6.17 million; A18-49: #3, 2.4/ 6), Fox’s Standoff (Viewers: #4, 5.79 million; A18-49: #4, 2.3/ 6) and the CW’s Gilmore Girls (Viewers: #5, 4.83 million; A18-49: #5, 2.2/ 6). Although even a diluted Gilmore Girls is still passable on the CW, Friday Night Lights and Standoff need to find new time periods (with ample lead-in support) pronto. So best numbers of the season, can't wait for next week.

Was it Cappucino or Peachy who once asked me my opinion about how much the SL affects the ratings?

Obviously, nothing about last night's SL changed from any earlier ep, yet we had the highest ratings of the season. So, I'd say this is some evidence that DWTS (and not being pre-empted in LA) is more important, ratings-wise than the SL.

I do think that 5.13 & 6.09 got huge SL boosts (the 100th/LLC catch RL making out & Rory & Lorelai reunite, respectivly), but nothing in last night's ep would have sparked a boost

[lemon tart]

Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post) Two huge differences, and the only ones that matter: Lorelai didn't keep Rory from Chris' knowledge for twelve years - that alone sets the tone for accessiblilty and the fact that Anna did should preclude any attempt at denying Luke access to April now, and 2) Lorelai was never In You Face Bitchy with Chris about making any and all decisions regarding Rory. And if she were, he could have fought her.

But that's a difference in Chris & Luke. Not in Anna & Lorelai, which is what Captain is trying to point out. Luke is trying to be a proactive good father, albeit, late because of Anna's keeping April from him. But the way Anna herself is treating Luke, without the help of jokes like Lorelai uses to temper her harshness & selfishness, is similar to how Lorelai treated E&R and Chris during the few attempts we saw him make to actually be involved in Rory's life.

BWT, we've been talking about the inverse ||s of the last 2 episodes in the R/L thread. I have one more. 6.09 Luke is the sperm donor, April doesn't seem him as anything but bio-dad. 7.09, Luke's April's dad, and in her eyes, co-equal parent that she can turn to in a crisis. Big differences in a year, and I don't think the placement of these episodes is a coincedence.

[colorblind]

Anyone think Chris will ever find out that ER planned on buying LL a house? Hmmmm....CL get a fugly wolfgirl picture for their marriage and LL would have gotten a house. I'm thinking if Chris ever found out about that, he wouldn't be too happy. Seems like more fuel on the fire for Christopher. And I must add that I'm extremely excited for the rest of the season. Especially the Richard illness. The drama and effects of that SL will be awesome to watch. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it....I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT EPISODE! (first time all season)

LC married really quick, they didn't plan it, that's why ER didn't give better present.

i have to say, now i'm excited too. i just read a spoiler about lorelai writting a letter to luke and chris getting mad, i can't wait for that. and of course i can't wait for luke/chris fight.

[lancer1993]

Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post) Was it Cappucino or Peachy who once asked me my opinion about how much the SL affects the ratings? Obviously, nothing about last night's SL changed from any earlier ep, yet we had the highest ratings of the season. So, I'd say this is some evidence that DWTS (and not being pre-empted in LA) is more important, ratings-wise than the SL. I do think that 5.13 & 6.09 got huge SL boosts (the 100th/LLC catch RL making out & Rory & Lorelai reunite, respectivly), but nothing in last night's ep would have sparked a boost

I agree and said so on TWoP, putting competition aside the rating are a reflection more of the promo and ep description for the average viewer who is not spoilt. They have now much idea what is gonna happen and rely on the promo's as to whether they will tune in.

Also I would have been shocked if it didn't get good numbers since DWTS is gone.

[Captain Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by gilmorebrazil (View Post) I agree with most of Anna/Lorelai similarities. Though, as blaab said, the difference of ages should play role in that. And it's true, Lorelai "left the door open" to Christopher only to slam it in the Bracebridge Dinner. But just as Luke, he could have asked for his rights. As you said, Emily changed Lorelai's terms. Oh, and neither Richard thought twice before go against Lorelai's wills in the Let the Games Begin or in A House is not a Home, just because he wanted the best for his grandchild. So what was stopping Christopher? I don't think we should hold the past against Christopher forever, but to put his absence as a father only on Lorelai's choices is a litle unfair...

I very much agree with your post. I wasn't trying to villify Lorelai--at 18 being a mom is not easy--but pointing out that to the people who loved her, Lorelai's action were as controlling and hurtful as the 30+ Anna's are to us.

Emily changed the control equation with FND and then Richard & Rory destroyed it in Kill Me Now--set up by Emily. A 16 year old Chris was no better equipped to change that equation than Richard was--or Luke, prior to Doula. But Emily was strong enough. And so wasn't Sherri.

[Mag13]

Originally Posted by blaab (View Post) I am thinking Lorelai said this in reference to her whole life. Never experiencing acceptance from E&R. Always feeling she did wrong, feeling she was not the daughter Richard and Emily wanted her to be, then getting pregnant at 16 , not marrying Chris at 16/17 and the running off to SH. And I guess we have seen the struggle that led too over all these years. Then

Lorelai left the message she got married in Paris on Emily's answering machine. Does it mean, that:
a/ she still fears her parents, especially Emily, so much, that she tries to avoid every unpleasant confrontation;
b/ she expected very impulsive reaction;
c/ she wanted Emily to be prepared before they meet again;
d/ she doesn't care about what E&R think, so she didn't need to tell them the news directly.
Which one???

[caf123]

Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post) How is Anna different in 7.09 than Lorelai was at 18?

Let me count the ways ... starting with how Christopher knew about his daughter while Anna hid Luke's child from him.

Christopher knew where Rory lived and could see her whenever he wanted.

Lorelai was not responsible for moving her daughter to California, for heavens' sake. She stayed in the home she was building and left the door open to the father. Anna hid her daughter from the father. That's the difference.

Rory was there for her dad to share as much as he wanted. He had access to Rory, he simply didn't have access to marrying Lorelai then. Please let's not confuse a daughter with a wife. Two different issues.

Apparently Christopher didn't want that access enough to bother walking through that door very often.

Anna insisted on making all the decisions about where April lived--so did Lorelai.

Lorelai never refused Christopher's few requests for his daughter to stay with him, visit him, or spend time with him.

Anna is taking April away from Luke and unwilling to promise he'll ever see her again--Lorelai took Rory away from E & R and was unwilling to let them see Rory (she declined an invite to their first Christmas party).

Lorelai took Rory to see Emily and Richard twice a year. (see Pilot)

Emily and Richard tried to control Lorelai - she ran away to escape that control. Luke is trying to have a relationship with his daughter; he's not trying to control Anna the way Lorelai's parents tried to control her. The two single mothers faced very different situations.

Anna deprived Luke of seeing April growing up--Lorelai deprived E & R of that (remember Emily had to get pics from Mia).

But Lorelai did let E&R see Rory growing up. Not as often as they'd have liked but she didn't cut off all contact, she didn't refuse to ever let them see Rory again.

Since when do grandparents have the right to insist their daughter plus granddaughter live in their house under their control?

Anna says she wants Luke to be involved in April's life, but when push comes to shove Anna's control comes first. Lorelai says she "left the door open" but Christmas with Chris & Sherry seemed to test that.

It was tested - and Lorelai passed. She passed the invitation on to Rory and allowed Rory to choose if she wanted to spend Christmas with Chris & Sherry.

Even though Christopher had never been around or helped with the mundane day-to-day responsibilities of child-rearing - yet Lorelai was still willing to let him have the fun holiday.

The door to E & R was slammed shut.

No it wasn't. They visited twice a year. They went to many an E&R Christmas party, did they not? Or are you talking about the year that Lorelai was uninvited and still sent Rory?

Anna never reached out to April's father, Lorelai never reached out to Rory's father until Rory's "coming out."

Giving access isn't the same as reaching out. The door was open to Christopher. It's not Lorelai's job to walk him through it. Christopher knew Rory existed (unlike Luke and April.). He knew where Rory lived. Knew what town to zoom into on his motorbike.

Keep it simple: Anna hid April from her dad for 16 years. Lorelai always left the door open to Rory's father.

(One request for child support and Rory doesn't grow up in a potting shed.)

From the father who couldn't even buy a dictionary for his daughter 16 years later? Dream on.

The Anna of 7.09 isn't all that different from young Lorelai: neither one cedes any control of their kid to said kid's father. Contact is on their terms. Until first Emily, and now Luke changes the terms.

You are confusing control with access and confusing "reaching out" with "access". It's the parent's responsibility to allow access to the other parent. Not to be their mommy or their nanny and set it all up for them.

The young Lorelai lived her own life and took care of her daughter. You seem to resent that she didn't depend on E&R or on Christopher.

She left the door to their daughter open to Christopher - he could be as much of a dad as he wanted. Which apparently wasn't very much. Whether or not he had the choice then of being her husband is an entirely different matter from fathering his child.

[noodle_scooze]

Originally Posted by beautifullauren (View Post) LC married really quick, they didn't plan it, that's why ER didn't give better present. i have to say, now i'm excited too. i just read a spoiler about lorelai writting a letter to luke and chris getting mad, i can't wait for that. and of course i can't wait for luke/chris fight.

I think I could have a found a better present at a dollar store in 2 minutes than that creepy wolf girl picture. That "art" doesn't even seem like ER's taste. It was just a really random present. Even if ER didn't have time to actually find a house, they could told CL they were planning to buy them a house.

I just think that crappy gift has some kind of meaning to it. I could see down the road when CL have broken up and Lorelai question's the wolf girl picture and Emily says something like "well I had to give you that dreadful painting because I wasn't going to wast a good gift on a marriage that won't last" ER's reaction to their marriage was so nonchalant. So much different than when Emily was extremely hurt for Lorelai not telling them about the Max engagement. I dunno...something definitely fishy.

Oh yea and did anyone else think of teen wolf when you saw the painting? He has a gilfriend now!

[lancer1993]

Originally Posted by Mag13 (View Post) Lorelai left the message she got married in Paris on Emily's answering machine. Does it mean, that: a/ she still fears her parents, especially Emily, so much, that she tries to avoid every unpleasant confrontation; b/ she expected very impulsive reaction; c/ she wanted Emily to be prepared before they meet again; d/ she doesn't care about what E&R think, so she didn't need to tell them the news directly. Which one???

IMO it's typical Lorelai avoiding, I mean what a way to find out, a "normal" person would tell them they have some great news and need to talk, she did this with Rory so why can't the almost 40yo Lorelai grow up and just have a normal relationship with E&R?

[blaab]

Originally Posted by Mag13 (View Post) Lorelai left the message she got married in Paris on Emily's answering machine. Does it mean, that: a/ she still fears her parents, especially Emily, so much, that she tries to avoid every unpleasant confrontation; b/ she expected very impulsive reaction; c/ she wanted Emily to be prepared before they meet again; d/ she doesn't care about what E&R think, so she didn't need to tell them the news directly. Which one???

First of all, I feel she cares. She cares so much I feel it is almost ridiculous. I think her feeling of not being accepted lead to Lorelai not easily opening up to her parents and not sharing personal news with them. Because somehow she feels that no matter what they will degrade it. Like she said after Emily found out that Lorelai was engaged to Max from Sookie. And Lorelai came back to Emily the next day after yelling at her mom in a tipsy state. Why don't you ever care? When she came back later and Emily shared, the to me, classic line. You should wear a vail, I wore one on my wedding ... Lorelai mentioned how she is afraid to share things, because she feels Emily always responds in a manner that makes Lorelai feel bad. In this case I do also feel she already suspected E&R would have wanted to be there, a party and all ... so I am going for C Also this was probably already on her mind, so she thought let's just get it out there ...

[crimsonlorelai]

I'm sorry but am I the only one who was annoyed by Jackson's very pointed and not at all metophorical Farmer loves commitment thing? That was retarded.

[crimsonlorelai]

I'm sorry but am I the only one who was annoyed by Jackson's very pointed and not at all metophorical Farmer loves commitment thing? That was retarded.

[lancer1993]

Originally Posted by blaab (View Post) First of all, she cares. She cares so much I feel it is almost ridiculous. I think her feeling of not being accepted lead to Lorelai not easily opening up to her parents and not sharing personal news with them. Because somehow she feels that no matter what they will degrade it. Like she said after Emily found out that Lorelai was engaged to Max from Sookie. And Lorelai came back to Emily the next day after yelling at her mom in a tipsy state. Why don't you ever care? When she came back later and Emily shared, the to me, classic line. You should wear a vail, I wore one on my wedding ... Lorelai mentioned how she is afraid to share things, because she feels Emily always responds in a manner that makes Lorelai feel bad. In this case I do also feel she already suspected E&R would have wanted to be there, a party and all ... so I am going for C

But we all know that Emily worships the very ground Chris walks on (or the idea or C&L doing the proper that and being married to the father of Rory) so why would Emily be mad that she finally married him. Maybe the biggest issue is the how. I like that Lorelai doesn't want the bulk of the townies there, is that saying something? But what of poor Jackson and Sookie, gotta feel sorry for them in a way but IMO it may not happen (the vows).

Spec - what if the secret in ep 7.11 is something to comes out about Lorelai's feelings for Luke, what if we do see the party/vows and we have a Friends moment with Lorelai saying Luke and not Chris, that might put Chris in to a bad mood in ep 7.12?